Why Melbourne should trade Jesse Hogan in 2018

Josh Elliott Editor

By Josh Elliott, Josh Elliott is a Roar Editor

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    Jesse Hogan is one of Melbourne's most important players, but there's an argument to be made for trading him (Photo by Daniel Pockett/AFL Media/Getty Images)

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    Everyone knows I love a good trade hypothetical. In fact, the only thing I love more is a bad trade hypothetical. And that’s what this is.

    Something I’ve thought about on many occasions is what it would be like if AFL clubs traded more strategically.

    At the moment trading mostly takes the form of convincing a player from an opposition club to defect, then lowballing said club at the trade table until finally one side blinks and a deal is struck.

    Clubs and fans have emotional attachments to their players and in the AFL this puts up too much of a barrier for a side to seriously consider trading a high-quality player unless they’re known to want out.

    A team like Fremantle might push out a Chris Mayne type every now and then but Adelaide would never have willingly traded Patrick Dangerfield while contracted, even though Melbourne were whispered to have offered both picks 2 and 3 for him.

    So please understand that I’m entirely aware that the scenario I’m about to present to you is completely unrealistic.

    But if we lived in a world of tactical trading, I really think Melbourne would consider making a deal for Jesse Hogan this year.

    Jesse Hogan Melbourne Demons AFL 2016 tall

    We’ve already talked about Tom J Lynch once or twice this preseason, so I won’t discuss his situation in length again here. You get it by now. Let’s say 50/50 chance he decides to come home to a Victorian club at the end of the year.

    Richmond and Hawthorn are generally acknowledged to be leading the chase. But if you wanted to pick a Victorian club who is most likely to win a flag before the end of Lynch’s career – and I know this is a big call – it’s neither of them. It’s Melbourne.

    The Dees have a list stocked with talent, much of it young, all across the field that is ready to pop. I’m tipping them to be a top-four side this year and a flag contender by the end of the decade.

    Can any other Victorian side boast that kind of promise? Maybe Essendon, or the Western Bulldogs. But for mine Melbourne are the leading contender for the title of ‘best Victorian team five years from now’.

    That being the case, it’s a destination that makes perfect sense for Lynch to go to – the complication being that they already have a very good key forward in Jesse Hogan.

    I’ll leave it to you to decide which of the two you think is the better talent. Whichever side you fall on I suspect we can agree that they’re both top-tier talents as far as key forwards go. Hogan is a little younger, Lynch a little more proven.

    Tom J Lynch

    Could they play in the same side together? Maybe. But even if they could Melbourne probably don’t have the salary cap room to make that happen. They’ve recruited a lot of experienced talent in recent years and have a number of young players who will be due payrises sooner or later.

    Maybe some creative accounting could fit Lynch and Hogan together right now, but it would come at the risk of losing a star player down the line.

    So what’s the point of the move then? It comes down to the fact that Lynch is a free agent, and Hogan isn’t.

    The Dees could hypothetically sign Lynch without having to give up any trade currency, but then get a good deal at the trade table for Hogan.

    Hogan hails from Western Australia, was a Fremantle fan before coming into the AFL, and whenever he is linked to a move home it is always the Dockers who are talked about.

    Fremantle have a pretty good young list, but they very much need a player like him to place at the centre of their forward line, and they’d know it.

    There’s no doubt in my mind that given the opportunity, Fremantle would pay Hogan whatever he’s getting at Melbourne or more and stump up two first-round picks to bring him across.

    It’d be the right call.

    Ross Lyon Fremantle Dockers AFL 2017

    The Dees then pitch themselves to Lynch as a club on the rise and ready to contend, something that a deep run into September this season would help with.

    They play under the bright lights of the MCG and he should have just as big a media profile there as he’d have at any other side.

    The big potential concern is that Gold Coast could match a bid and force a trade – but if they finish on the bottom of the ladder as so many of us are predicting, or near to, I reckon they’d be more likely to decline that right and accept pick No.2 in compensation from the AFL instead.

    If all goes to plan the overall result for Melbourne is Hogan out, Lynch and two first-round picks in – effectively cancelling out the heavy price the Demons paid for Jake Lever last October.

    And it would mean that Melbourne’s key forward focal point is one committed to seeing out the rest of their career at the club, as opposed to Hogan for whom the lure to return home seems likely to always be a headache.

    Combine that with the talent Melbourne already have on their list, and it could set them up to dominate the league for years to come.

    Josh Elliott
    Josh Elliott

    Josh Elliott may be The Roar's Weekend Editor, but at heart he's just a rusted-on North Melbourne tragic with a penchant for pun headlines - and also abnormal alliteration, assuredly; assuming achievability. He once finished third in a hot chilli pie eating contest. You can follow him on Twitter @JoshElliott_29 and listen to him on The Roar's AFL Podcast.

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    The Crowd Says (157)

    • Roar Pro

      March 13th 2018 @ 5:35am
      anon said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:35am | ! Report

      Hogan in the Fremantle forward line would have the ball kicked long and high above his head while jockeying for position among a pack of 10 players.

      Ross Lyon doesn’t do offence. Doesn’t do forward structures.

      Defence comes first, then we’ll figure out how to score later.

      For all the talk about Fremantle going through the corridor on Sunday, they were actually trying that last season. Specifically the round 3 Bulldogs win comes to mind where Ross Lyon was shamed into dropping his favourite veterans and to roll the dice with regards to game plan after he suffered his worst loss in his career against Port in round 2.

      Despite success with this in the short term, over subsequent rounds he clammed up little by little, reverted to his defensive ways, brought back his veterans, and the result was a horrific 100 point loss to Adelaide and 10 goal beatdown by Brisbane.

      • March 13th 2018 @ 9:34am
        Don Freo said | March 13th 2018 @ 9:34am | ! Report

        Only yesterday you said the opposite, questioning the lack of defence. Ross didn’t ‘bring back his veterans’ at all. They were at Peel. Pearce and Griffin only got late games when Freo had no other fit players on their list.

        The muddled mind continues. Nevertheless, another brainless comment, this time about Hogan.

        • Roar Pro

          March 13th 2018 @ 12:38pm
          anon said | March 13th 2018 @ 12:38pm | ! Report

          Rounds 1 and 2 his lame veterans were chosen over youth despite being a rebuilding year. Then came a horrific loss in round 2 and he was shamed into playing youth.

          • Roar Guru

            March 13th 2018 @ 12:44pm
            Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 12:44pm | ! Report

            So even when he makes a good call in round 3, he can’t receive any credit for it because of what happened in round 2?

            Those specks of your dog’s face must really be enmeshed his car’s tyres by now

            • March 13th 2018 @ 1:03pm
              mattyb said | March 13th 2018 @ 1:03pm | ! Report

              Anon,looks like you’ve got the ‘pack’ circling again as always,and as rattled as ever.
              It will be interesting what Lyon does round one,Ballantyne and Sandilands will definitely play,which I agree with. I’m getting the feeling D.Pearce will now play,which I’m not in agreeance with.
              Will certainly be an Interesting selection to keep an eye on and RTB has certainly been very reluctant to play those outside his trusted circle in the past unless circumstances forced him to do so.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 1:09pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 1:09pm | ! Report

                Not sure where this ‘pack’ notion is coming from matty – I get the impression you’re dying to come out with something along the lines of the beige 8

                I always go for anon because he talks rubbish and he’s good for a reply.

                if Don thinks the same thing it’s merely a case of great minds thinking alike.

                the only person obsessed with getting a whole bunch of names to reply in a pack is you my good sir

              • March 13th 2018 @ 6:06pm
                Mattyb said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:06pm | ! Report

                Paul,there’s now more snakes than people actually making original comments.
                To be fair to anon he has proven himself to be right a fair few time and at least makes original comments.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 6:22pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:22pm | ! Report

                Original? He has been saying the same stuff for years

                He doesn’t have the confidence to admit who he is, what he does, who he supports – he’s a frightened little infant on the internet who thinks anonymous cut/paste passes muster for debate.

                I rarely go after newbies but anon has been here for years and years if he didn’t enjoy the attention he would have left by now

                He does make some good points – I have said his smith/maxwell stuff was amusing and accurate and I do agree with the idea that the GF should perhaps be played elsewhere although unlike him I actually respect commercial arrangements enough to not agree it should be decided based on the prelim final outcome with a weeks notice.

                But he also says some truly awful stuff about women, about people of ethnic origins on the football forum and various other causes – I think anyone who subscribed to him as a font of wisdom hasn’t really paid much attention to what he says.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 11:50pm
                mattyb said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:50pm | ! Report

                Paul,he just says stuff.
                I’ve actually never seen him snake into someone else’s comments.
                Everything is therefore original,it might be repeated though but it seems correct on face value. Plenty of division amongst the Freo fans I know.
                I’ve seen people post here and never actually be right on one single occasion,yet snake into everything.
                Lyons round one selection will be very interesting.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 6:45pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:45pm | ! Report

                Glad someone gives anon a little credit ,his knowledge of freo is good and is right in a lot of things he say’s about freo but most freo supporters on this site cannot handle the truth they just attack him.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 6:50pm
                Don Freo said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:50pm | ! Report

                I’d challenge you to post a few of those ‘right’ comments. When he talks about Freo, not one has been correct.

                Post the one where he said Alex Pearce was not doing anything in defense…when he had been out with a broken leg for ages. He has no idea who is in the Freo squad or what they play like.

                Give me something Matty. This is a line of argument you are beginning to repeat. Let’s see some substance.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 8:02pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 8:02pm | ! Report

                Substance do you really know what it means…Everyone in WA knows that Ballantyne was only offered a one year contract he asked his manager to see if he could get better,(good luck to him) preferably at the eagles but he would move interstate,sadly there were no takers. Why do you keep denying it

              • March 13th 2018 @ 11:17pm
                Don Freo said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:17pm | ! Report

                Substance is the stuff Mattyb will provide to substantiate his claim. See what happened there? Substance/subtantiate.

                Ballas is never going to move interstate. This is where you guys who don’t know the club or its players get so lost. Ballas’ old man is a horse trainer down that way. Ballas has a horse property and his whole future is geared for that. He’s never going to leave that.

                He even uses that part of his world to mentor young Freo players.

                I told you about the contract situation last post. Every player wants more than one year at the end. The struggling gossip journos made up the rest. You made up the bits they couldn’t think of because you have to be loopy to get so far away from how competent young men think. You are a very bitter old man.

              • Roar Pro

                March 13th 2018 @ 7:02pm
                anon said | March 13th 2018 @ 7:02pm | ! Report

                Thanks Jon Boy and Matty. Glad someone sees the truth in what I’m writing.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 7:53pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | March 13th 2018 @ 7:53pm | ! Report

                hahaha Looks like you’ve got some followers in your attention-seeking novelty provocateurs club, can I suggest a name? How about the “anonolites”?

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 8:10pm
                Col from Brissie said | March 13th 2018 @ 8:10pm | ! Report


              • March 13th 2018 @ 11:36pm
                mattyb said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:36pm | ! Report

                Gene,Samantha…what’s the difference?

            • Roar Pro

              March 13th 2018 @ 2:51pm
              anon said | March 13th 2018 @ 2:51pm | ! Report

              Public outrage forced him to play youth, otherwise he would have got 22 games into the likes of Nick Suban.

              You don’t get any credit when public pressure forces you into making the correct decision.

              He’s paid a lot of money to be ahead of the curve, not to be someone who doesn’t make the right decision until he has no other option.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 3:01pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 3:01pm | ! Report

                Oh please, Ross Lyon has a contract til 2020, what public outrage or pressure

                He debuted the kids at home in a game against the dogs, they won. Far better than throwing them to the wolves against Port Adelaide away from home.

                You’re one to talk about being ahead of the curve, considering all your stuff is waiting for events to happen then determining your viewpoint.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 3:39pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 3:39pm | ! Report

                You do not live in Perth so you are out of line…..What anon said is 100 % correct about public outrage that is exactly what did happen. Paul Haselby and Karl Langdon were savage on Lyon even DF would know that ,but he would not have the tummy to admit it. Do you really think contracts are going to save you .

              • March 13th 2018 @ 4:52pm
                Don Freo said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:52pm | ! Report

                They were savage on Freo, not Ross Lyon.

                Ross and his crew’s choices were exemplary. Of course they would play Suban, Dawson and Pearce et al who had been faithful servants. When it became obvious they had run their race and were off the pace, he sent them to the WAFL and brought on the next lot.

                That is honoring faithful servants. He made the tough calls as he had done previously. What person who knows anything about footy would believe that public pressure would set a club policy? That is the depth of dumbness.

                Freo is enjoying the game time put into our youth. Yet you are still asking, ‘Where is the youth?’ You ought to watch a Freo game one day.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 5:10pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:10pm | ! Report

                100% right Don there is stacks of youth there ,it is great ,just a little dead wood there but they will be gone soon and then the finals march is on the way. Go Freo !

              • Roar Pro

                March 13th 2018 @ 3:09pm
                anon said | March 13th 2018 @ 3:09pm | ! Report

                They played at home in round 1 and played his veterans despite it being a rebuilding year.

                Public outrage after round 2 forced him into dropping his favourite veteran players like Suban, Dawson, Pearce, etc.

                You think it’s better to debut your young players against the reigning premiers than against a team that missed the 8 the previous year? Odd.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 3:43pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 3:43pm | ! Report

                I’ve heard enough from Don about the WA Media to take the views of Haselby and Langdon with a pinch of salt. Yes Jonboy, you are less reliable a source than Don ‘koolaid’ Freo

                Think on that for a moment. Reflect how far you have fallen.

                @Anon I think it’s better to debut players at home, rather than away, if you have the option.

                I even mentioned that in my post.

                you ignored that part, seized on the part about the opposition and made an argument that was ultimately easily disregarded because it didn’t address the point I made. Well done. Bet that was worth waiting for the mods to approve.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 3:55pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 3:55pm | ! Report

                I Will rate what Haselby say’s about Freo a lot more than you and DF you live in Qld should stick there because your embarrassing yourself regarding Fremantle,

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 4:01pm
                AdelaideDocker said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:01pm | ! Report

                By that logic, Jon boy, I shouldn’t comment on Freo.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 4:16pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:16pm | ! Report

                No not at all ,you are fine you call it as you see it, like anon based on fact ,but there are other clowns that really do not have any idea who just want to argue and name call .

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 4:11pm
                Cat said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:11pm | ! Report

                By that logic Jon Boy should never comment on any team not in WA too … or the AFL itself since it is based in Melbourne …

              • March 13th 2018 @ 4:34pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:34pm | ! Report

                No Cat not at all go for it, But i am not going to make things up about Geelong just to get into a slanging match,opinion yes but i respect your knowledge of the club.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 4:16pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:16pm | ! Report

                Again jonboy, opinion site, I can write whatever I want within the confines of the moderation rules on this place

                If you can’t handle it, jump off the computer in the retirement village and hand it over to Betty, she’s gagging for a game of freecell

              • March 13th 2018 @ 4:26pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:26pm | ! Report

                Go for it write what you like , could not care less,but a bit of factual stuff and not insults and name calling would be more refreshing but i doubt you are capable of that .

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 4:18pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:18pm | ! Report

                Maybe you’d get better responses from me if you could be bothered to write something more than one liners jonboy. Look down the page, I spent paragraphs responding people who actually wanted to talk footy

                you just come on here and moan and gripe like a lonely old turtle, it’s no wonder people just rap on your shell and move on

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 4:28pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:28pm | ! Report

                Well, why don’t you start first jonboy – put your thoughts out instead of gently stroking anon’s taint with your finger and then see what you get in response

                you might be surprised. you have said as much about me in the past.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 4:30pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:30pm | ! Report

                Sorry, I just saw this and had to ask “Karl Langdon”??!!?? hahaha If you live in Perth Jon boy (which I thought you said you didn’t?), you probably should know that if Karl Langdon states anything, it pretty much reduces its credibility 75% or so. Also I’m not sure Haselby, going by your ideas on reputation, has that much credibility in criticising anyone’s coaching.

                For what it’s worth, that whole take on the selection thing is a contrived and shallow one. Basically, some legitimate questions the Freo coaching panel would of had at the beginning of 2017 was “now we’ve got a fitter Fyfe, Sandilands, et al, and a new look key forward structure, will we see a surge in competitiveness?”

              • March 13th 2018 @ 4:44pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:44pm | ! Report

                I Live a little less than 200 ks from Perth ,but spend a lot of time in Perth to answer your question .Lived and played footy in the GNNFL

              • March 13th 2018 @ 5:01pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:01pm | ! Report

                Credibility regarding Haselby and Langdon both played over 400 AFL games between them,both very knowledgeable shoot from the hip and call it right 90% of the time and a lot of people do not like it ….That is why People start screaming credibility !

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 5:08pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:08pm | ! Report

                Umm, you’re the one “screaming credibility”.

                It’s logically weak to claim authority for their opinions because they’ve been more than handy footy players and its cricularity starts to fall down pretty quickly with this sort of argument. I mean “how can they question Ross Lyon when neither has coached at AFL level?” or you could try “of course they would be better judges than Alistair Clarkson on how to manage a footy team, as they’ve played more games at AFL level”.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 5:17pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:17pm | ! Report

                Who mentioned credibility first go look ?

              • March 13th 2018 @ 5:29pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:29pm | ! Report

                If you coach any team and they are not performing, surely questions are allowed to be asked ?

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 5:11pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:11pm | ! Report

                I find it hard to take footballers who become journalists all that seriously because inevitably they wind up playing favourites. They have their favourite sources who give them good quotes and get a good run, and then they have other sources who don’t talk to them much and hence they give him a hard time. It’s indicative that Ross has never really had a good run from the media because he doesn’t rate their views much, and doesn’t waste time feeding them.

                Look at someone like Chad Cornes, now he’s in the media he’s got no issues with saying player salaries should be public, and venturing all sorts of suggestions to player wages/conditions/contracts – it’s a lot easier to say these things once you’re outside the cloister and free to freelance on whatever you want to say or write about, plus when it has no impact whatsoever on Cornes as he’s no longer a contracted footballer.

                Various states have journos they love to hate. Rucci in Adelaide, Slobbo and Caro in Melbourne (although I rather like Caro), Webster here for the Courier Fail in Brisbane.

                I think part of the problem for journalists is that they stay in the game too long. Players have to retire after about 10-12 years in the system even with a storied career, most don’t even last half that.

                If they can move away from being the daily storybreaker like Caro has and get onto more involved, nuanced columns with more depth and understand, focus their decades of experience into digging into big stories, they can reinvent themselves, but a journo who’s constantly looking for muckraking and stories on a daily basis inevitably winds up degenerating themselves into farce sooner or later – Slobbo’s unverified claim that 11 players from Collingwood had failed drug testing based on a leak from someone either at the AFL, AFLPA or Collingwood, and the insistence on making Collingwood the story of the day despite this being an issue that clearly affected every club was a prime example of this. 3 months later he’s tweeting making jokes about Fasolo’s depression.

                Anyways, that’s my take on it. If players have to retire, I don’t see why journos shouldn’t be moved on either. I think after ten years everyone knows what you’re about in the written word anyway, time for a fresh take.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 5:17pm
                Don Freo said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:17pm | ! Report

                Freo actually black banned 6PR in 2016 because of Hardie and Hagdorn mischief (the Ballas rumour was one, Fyfe rumours etc. Basically, every rumour was made up). To get Ross and co back on their SportsTalk programme, they shuffled Hardie out the back door and Hagdorn only does shock jock 5 min spots and some Saturday am.

                To get Freo back, they had to get Hasleby onto SportsTalk in place of Hardie.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 5:25pm
                Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:25pm | ! Report

                Absolute Rubbish,no rumour Ballantyne’s manager put him out there….no one was interested ….I wonder why ?

              • March 13th 2018 @ 6:41pm
                Don Freo said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:41pm | ! Report

                Ballas wanted more than one year. His manager asked some questions. Hardie and Hagdorn went with the ‘dissent in the ranks’ argument. They are both considered to be cartoon characters in the WA media.

                Both Ballas and Ross have said that there was never a request to leave or a desire to leave.

              • March 13th 2018 @ 11:41pm
                rusty said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:41pm | ! Report

                I can’t stand Hagdorn but have always liked Hardie. I don’t listen to 6pr much anymore but I heard them the other day and to a man the commentators were full of loathing for Ross Lyon.
                It is clearly all personal. I might add, Simpson gets an absolute free ride from the Perth media. West Coast are untouchable in the West.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 5:38pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:38pm | ! Report

                You’re the first one to bankroll their opinion based on credibility, but really that’s a distraction, the substantial point being their opinions on coaching gain no extra traction from their long gone playing careers.

                Look the hysterical notion of public outrage forced nothing, the clearest perspective is that results provided them with evidence indicating they needed to change tack and they did.

              • Roar Pro

                March 13th 2018 @ 6:36pm
                anon said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:36pm | ! Report

                “@Anon I think it’s better to debut players at home, rather than away, if you have the option.”

                Fremantle played Geelong in Perth in round 1.

                Why wouldn’t you debut your young players against Geelong? Why wait until you play the reigning premiers in round 3?

                Round 5 Fremantle played North Melbourne in Perth. Surely an even better opportunity to ease your young players into the team.

                Nope, he instead played his young players only after public outrage in the wake of the round 2 record loss.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 6:50pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:50pm | ! Report

                So now you’re saying you’d rather he have waited till round 5? You’re already into him for waiting til round 3!

                As for the first part well – like most coaches he wanted to give his vets a chance to prove they still had it, he gave them two chances – sayonara.

                Regardless of what Ross did you would find fault anyway

              • Roar Pro

                March 13th 2018 @ 7:01pm
                anon said | March 13th 2018 @ 7:01pm | ! Report

                So now you’re saying you’d rather he have waited till round 5? You’re already into him for waiting til round 3!

                I’m using your argument. You were arguing that it was better to wait until a home game against the reigning premiers in round 3 than a match away against a team that missed the top 8. I gave you two better options. Geelong in round 1 who finished below Western in 2016 and North Melbourne in round 5.

                If you’re worried about damaging the confidence of young players, then having them debut at home against the reigning premier early in the season must be the dumbest choice of all (using your logic).

                As for the first part well – like most coaches he wanted to give his vets a chance to prove they still had it, he gave them two chances – sayonara.

                That’s what 2016 was for. 2016 proved they wouldn’t be around for the next premiership window. 2017 was the second year of the much talked about rebuild. Yet Lyon fielded one of the oldest sides in the league for rounds 1 and 2 of the rebuild. Strange…

                Also, there was no sayonara to his has been veterans. They were back in the side 6 weeks later. They trickled back into the team one by one, culminating in a 100 point loss to Adelaide.

                Regardless of what Ross did you would find fault anyway

                I play the ball, you play the man.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 11:25pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:25pm | ! Report

                I argued for a home game being the best reason to debut new players. I didn’t say anything about the opposition. The reason being is that I think it is irrelevant.

                The main reason I’m pushing the home ground viewpoint is that it’s easier for the players family & friends to get along and witness their debut game, which is a really important day for the new player. I feel they will play better in familiar circumstances. It’s these sort of human factors your android mind always overlooks.

                I actually don’t think the opposition should be mentioned or is important at all. A new debutante is going to be keen as mustard regardless, and I actually think playing your first game against a team that perhaps you are not expected to beat is better for a debutante because it perhaps takes the pressure off a bit.

                What’s your argument? You think players aren’t going to want keep going in AFL if they have a bad debut first up? Why on earth do we let the worst teams draft the best players first then, surely this sort of outrage should be abolished before it destroys the confidence of the entire 2018 draft crop.

                Regarding the vets – so it starts at the list management process at the end of 2016, these guys weren’t delisted so obviously Freo wanted to keep them, no doubt you think they shouldn’t have, but whatever. You have to have 38 guys on a list or whatever it is and they can’t all be kids, it doesn’t work – trust me.

                So if they’re on the list still and veterans obviously they’re still in the mix, they get tried round one, they fail, next game is away, they failed again – cut. He stuck fat for a while, but you have injuries, players get tired, drained – I can assure you having watched a young Brisbane side for years it’s not a myth, young players get fatigued.


                Pore over this for a while and tell me what your thoughts are and we can discuss this more if you like

                Finally – playing the man, well, sorry but that’s just part of my patter. You like to cut/paste the same stuff ad nauseum, I like to throw in personal jibes.

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 1:32am
                Dalgety Carrington said | March 14th 2018 @ 1:32am | ! Report

                Like the intro of the table Paul D. Interestting to view some facts instead of reductive layered agenda telling like “introduce his favourites one by one”.

                Worth noting that DPearce came in while Stephen Hill had been out a few weeks, as he is now. Also that as Sutcliffe came in when Sheridan was out and then Suban came in when Sutcliffe went out. Sheridan got another brief go as well through Hughes having a rest, then Hill and Mundy. You may not agree with those moves, but there’s enough rationale behind them.

              • Roar Pro

                March 14th 2018 @ 11:45am
                anon said | March 14th 2018 @ 11:45am | ! Report

                For some reason the mods are trying to influence an argument and didn’t approve my previous reply.

                Rounds 1 and 2 of 2017 Fremantle fielded something like the 3rd or 4th oldest team in the league. Really strange way to go about a rebuild. Generally you are one of the youngest.

                Also, the rebuild should have started at the end of 2015, but it was clear the premiership window was shut at round 5 2016.

                Fremantle had the luxury of using the rest of the season to get as many games as they could into young players. If they failed to use that time wisely, then that’s their fault. That’s incompetence on the part of the club.

              • March 14th 2018 @ 1:05pm
                Don Freo said | March 14th 2018 @ 1:05pm | ! Report

                There was no “rebuild” then. A “rebuild” is a silly media idea. Ross, in correcting that said it might be a “re-stump or a re-wire”. It was his mockery of that idea. There were some things that needed adjustment but he was clear it was not a rebuild.

                With returning players (there were two years of more games lost than any other club) it is obvious there has been no need for a re-build. It is the most stunning building on the block and the new stumps and wires are very impressive.

                Cheer up, anon. You’ll soon have no reason to be sad.

              • March 14th 2018 @ 8:00pm
                Jon boy said | March 14th 2018 @ 8:00pm | ! Report

                Don really your quote A ‘rebuild is a silly media idea’ did you see Ross on national TV this week saying that Freo was in there second year of a ‘rebuild ‘ ?????? no i don’t suppose you did .Would not have the courage to put your hand up i guess.

              • March 15th 2018 @ 2:24am
                Don Freo said | March 15th 2018 @ 2:24am | ! Report

                No. Ross does not believe that and he did not say that. You really struggle with this one.

                This side will play finals and the players you don’t know, Sandi, Mundy, Ballas, Johnno will contribute wonderfully.

                You are a cartoon character who knows nothing about football clubs.

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 12:09pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 14th 2018 @ 12:09pm | ! Report

                You’re still on rounds 1/2 of 2017? I already discussed my views on this

                Claiming Freo had an old side is distorted by the fact they had 7 30+ year olds on their list at the start of 2017, including Mundy, Sandilands and Johnson who are in their mid 30’s.

                it’s like claiming WCE had the most experienced side on the strength of signing Mitchell and Petrie for a year.


                You didn’t even reference the table I provided. All broad strokes. Just shows you’re a lazy debater, not someone who is prepared to spend the time or energy to get across the facts.

                If you looked at it, you’d see several instances where young players were persevered with, where veterans were brought back in solely to replace injured veterans. And where young players who didn’t get many games (ie. Balic) had obvious explanations as to why not.

                About the only thing I can pot Ross for on the strength of table was bringing in Jon Griffin for 3 games during the middle of the season after Sandi went down injured – he is a very limited footballer and was never going to go up a gear, Darcy should have been blooded at that point, but maybe Ross just wanted to give him one last chance before putting him down for good with no regrets or feelings that he hadn’t been given his opportunities

              • Roar Pro

                March 14th 2018 @ 1:31pm
                anon said | March 14th 2018 @ 1:31pm | ! Report

                Claiming Freo had an old side is distorted by the fact they had 7 30+ year olds on their list at the start of 2017, including Mundy, Sandilands and Johnson who are in their mid 30’s.

                Those 7 were basically automatic starters in the best 22.

                So your argument is if we don’t count 1/3 of the best 22 then they are a young side…

              • March 14th 2018 @ 2:34pm
                Don Freo said | March 14th 2018 @ 2:34pm | ! Report

                How many games do you think Sandi, Griffin or Pearce played? Look at the list you have been sent. You get every post wrong.

                JonBoy agrees but he doesn’t…or can’t…read.

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 2:13pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 14th 2018 @ 2:13pm | ! Report

                No…my argument is that using a blunt instrument like average age, which is easily distorted by having a 32, 33 and 35 year old in the side is a bad way to go about making generalisations.

                You should use something like median in this instance, as it is a better mathematical way of illustrating the true spread of age. Freo’s median age this year of players who have played games (taking out the 0 game rookies that distort the figures downwards) is 24 years 8 months.

                Really, the only 30+ players you can complain about getting games this year would be Pearce, Spurr & Ballantyne, depending on who is left out to get them in. I see Mundy, Sandi and Johnson as still first choice players and essential cogs.

              • Roar Pro

                March 14th 2018 @ 2:31pm
                anon said | March 14th 2018 @ 2:31pm | ! Report

                Really, the only 30+ players you can complain about getting games this year would be Pearce, Spurr & Ballantyne

                Using the median age doesn’t show the over-reliance on senior players over 30 by Lyon.

                Darcy should be in for Sandilands. Pearce, Spurr, Ballantyne have no business playing AFL let alone in a rebuilding side. Those three wouldn’t get a game for any other team in the league.

                Suban and Dawson had no business playing last year.

              • March 14th 2018 @ 2:54pm
                Don Freo said | March 14th 2018 @ 2:54pm | ! Report

                You think you are making a footy comment and then suggest Sandilands should not be playing? You continue with the comedy. You will get that towering intellect, JonBoy, to agree. That’s your level, anon.

              • March 14th 2018 @ 4:01pm
                Jon boy said | March 14th 2018 @ 4:01pm | ! Report

                Your level is continued insults and name calling ,a big sign of weakness and being a loser .I have not read where anon stoops to that level.

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 2:48pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 14th 2018 @ 2:48pm | ! Report

                Translation – using the median age doesn’t agree with the argument I’m pushing.

                over-reliance – that’s not a factual statement, that’s just your opinion. Dawson played the first 2 rounds, was axed, didn’t play again all year. Suban also was cut after the first two, and then came back in when Sutcliffe went out in round 14, and he held his place once Sutcliffe came back in round 19 due to Walters, Spurr and Blakely all not playing the last few games of the season.

                Darcy is now in the side. He came in round 14, and played all the remaining games of the season apart from rounds 20 & 23 when Griffin subbed back in for him (injured? Resting?) . I’ll give you that Darcy should have come in round 10, instead of round 14, and not had to wait for Griffin to prove what we all already knew – he’s not much of a footballer.

                Darcy ahead of Sandilands – disagree, Sandi is still a massive asset for Freo. They can fit them both in the side now Zac Clarke and Griffin have both been delisted. Ballantyne – well, at the time last year when he came back in round 14 they didn’t have Matera and Banfield on the books. They do now.
                Really all you’ve got is the first 2 rounds, and then various gripes about senior players that are written in such a way as to show that you’ve actually not looked at the tables I gave you to peruse

              • Roar Pro

                March 14th 2018 @ 3:32pm
                anon said | March 14th 2018 @ 3:32pm | ! Report

                The whole point of the argument is that the first two rounds (in a rebuilding year) Rossy rolled out one of the oldest teams in the league.

                It was an old, old team.

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 3:56pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 14th 2018 @ 3:56pm | ! Report

                And my argument is that Ross did the right thing in giving them the first two rounds (and enough rope) to either hang themselves or show they still had something to offer

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 4:08pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | March 14th 2018 @ 4:08pm | ! Report

                And yet Freo turned out the second youngest team to win in 2017 and the youngest to beat a team older than them.

                A season is a fair journey (a “rebuild” more so), it just might be good policy to pace yourself accordingly.

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 4:26pm
                Cat said | March 14th 2018 @ 4:26pm | ! Report

                Jon boy said | March 14th 2018 @ 4:01pm | ! Report

                Your level is continued insults and name calling ,a big sign of weakness and being a loser .I have not read where anon stoops to that level.

                You do realise that by calling someone else ‘a loser’ you have, by your own set of rules called yourself weak and a loser too, right?

              • March 14th 2018 @ 4:32pm
                Jon boy said | March 14th 2018 @ 4:32pm | ! Report

                Just look in the mirror Cat ,not interested in playing your little games.

              • March 14th 2018 @ 4:36pm
                Jon boy said | March 14th 2018 @ 4:36pm | ! Report

                Your just another one that is not interested in talking footy, you should transfer to Rockingham you would be a great fit there.

              • Roar Pro

                March 14th 2018 @ 4:56pm
                anon said | March 14th 2018 @ 4:56pm | ! Report

                And my argument is that Ross did the right thing in giving them the first two rounds (and enough rope) to either hang themselves or show they still had something to offer

                That’s what 2016 was for.

                If you needed 2016, the 2016 offseason, and the first two games of 2017 to figure out that Dawson, Suban, etc wouldn’t be part of the next premiership tilt then you’re a very poor coach.

                If it’s a rebuild you don’t start the year rolling out one of the oldest sides in the league. Rebuild by definition means playing youth. Keep some star players like Mundy, you get rid of fringe players like Suban.

                Simple concept.

              • March 14th 2018 @ 9:25pm
                Don Freo said | March 14th 2018 @ 9:25pm | ! Report

                That’s probably how you conceptualised it. Needs a simple brain.

              • March 15th 2018 @ 12:19am
                Jon boy said | March 15th 2018 @ 12:19am | ! Report

                Great courage don make a good pollie ,could not answer a Yes or No Question answer with absolute dribble.

              • March 15th 2018 @ 2:21am
                Don Freo said | March 15th 2018 @ 2:21am | ! Report

                Duh! There was no question to answer Yes or No to. What do you think the question was?

                How does courage get involved here? We are typing.

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 5:34pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 14th 2018 @ 5:34pm | ! Report

                Since you seem intent on continuing to talk broad strokes without citing any evidence, I guess I’ll have to keep cleaning up after you by injecting facts and data into the conversation.

                Here is a full list of everyone the Dockers cut or lost at the end of 2016


                That’s 14 players – equal 2nd with Carlton who were also knee deep in cleaning out their list, and second only to Essendon who obviously had an artificially high level of list changes following the 2016 season, given they had to cut most of their top-up players

                Matthew Pavlich (retired)
                Michael Barlow (delisted)
                Sean Hurley (delisted)
                Tanner Smith (delisted)
                Anthony Morabito (delisted)
                Tendai Mzungu (delisted)
                Matt de Boer (delisted)
                Clancee Pearce (delisted)
                Jack Hannath (delisted)
                Brady Grey (delisted)
                Josh Deluca (delisted)
                Alex Silvagni (delisted)
                Shane Yarran (delisted)
                Chris Mayne (free agent – Collingwood)

                So that’s 14 players gone. They brought in 4 players – Hill, Hamling, Kersten and McCarthy, and drafted 4 players – Logue, Darcy, Cox and Ryan.

                Really, your argument now, is that despite Freo cleaning out 14 players, equal highest in the league of teams with conventional lists in 2016, you’re saying it was a failure because they didn’t clean out Suban.

                Maybe the fact Suban’s contract was due to expire in 2017 had something to do with that? Why pay him out for a year when you’ve just axed a ton of veterans and he’d be a handy insurance policy to plug a hole in the midfield. Might as well get something for what they were paying him. On the strength of what I’ve outlined above I have no hesitation in declaring Freo’s turnover in 2016/17 to be sound and sensible management.

              • Roar Pro

                March 14th 2018 @ 5:52pm
                anon said | March 14th 2018 @ 5:52pm | ! Report

                Doesn’t quite tell the whole story.

                Of the 14.

                Drafted 4 players with several of those players being high draft picks.

                Traded for 4 players from other clubs. Decent, name players apart from Kersten who was thrown in for free and basically replacing Mayne.

                Deluca and Grey were delisted and redrafted.

                Morabito had played 1 game in about 7 years and was just taking up space at the club

                That’s 11 accounted for. 11 that put the club in a better position with a good mix of high draft picks and experience.

              • Roar Pro

                March 14th 2018 @ 7:37pm
                anon said | March 14th 2018 @ 7:37pm | ! Report

                As I wrote 12 months ago:

                SmithHatesMaxwell said | April 6th 2017 @ 9:59am | ! Report

                Do you think a team like Adelaide would be putting up scores of 140 with Ross Lyon’s 2016/17 game plan?

                He’s tactically about 10 years behind the likes of Don Pyke or Beveridge.

                Serial underperforming veterans have played virtually every single game under Lyon’s tenure. Dawson and Danyle Pearce come to mind. They basically have no incentive to improve their performance because they have never been dropped for poor form. Young players make a mistake during games and their banished back to the state league.

                He’s killed the confidence of young players and allowed standards to plummet in established players.

                I have never seen such a listless group of players. They have quit on him.

                Lyon is now 4-21 in his last 25 games. Neeld got sacked after going 5-28 with a weaker list than Lyon has had at his disposal.

                I don’t understand the excuses still being made for Lyon. Why weren’t they made for Neeld? Was Neeld a master coach like Lyon who came along to the Demons at the wrong time?

              • Roar Guru

                March 14th 2018 @ 11:23pm
                Dalgety Carrington said | March 14th 2018 @ 11:23pm | ! Report

                So do you keep and compile the scrapbook of your posts yourself anon, or do you get one of the anonolites/anonomooses to do that now?

                To be fair, I have actually also kept clippings of your posts from April 8th 2017 (I didn’t bother with the copy&paste ones) extending through the run where Freo’s listless and lost players won 6 out of 7 (including a couple at the MCG where, as you say, they struggle) and flirted with a top 4 spot:

                I admit it didn’t take a huge amount of effort, but you can only deal with what’s served up.

          • March 13th 2018 @ 2:25pm
            Don Freo said | March 13th 2018 @ 2:25pm | ! Report

            You’ve reverted to the start of last year now. Why? Do you you have nothing to sustain your change of atteck from yesterday?

            Make up your mind.

            • March 13th 2018 @ 3:14pm
              Harsh Truth Harry said | March 13th 2018 @ 3:14pm | ! Report

              Forget Rossy Lyon’s contract, he has already signed with McGuire and will be unveiled as the bla k and white filths coach end this year. Take it as gospel, you heard it first from the massive unit that is Harry!

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 3:43pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 3:43pm | ! Report

                You are a massive something Harry, not sure it’s unit

          • March 13th 2018 @ 4:06pm
            Jon boy said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:06pm | ! Report

            I Do not know what state anon is from but his knowledge of Freo is better than DF or any other subscribers on this site.

      • March 13th 2018 @ 10:58am
        johno said | March 13th 2018 @ 10:58am | ! Report

        Josh – do you mind if I print this out and send by carrier pigeon to the Melbourne recruiting department (I don’t think they have the interweb there yet)

        Dees IN – Lynch, Freo’s 2018 and 2019 first round picks
        Dees Out – Hogan

        That is a win for the Dees

        Freo IN – Hogan
        Freo OUT – 2 first rounders

        Yes, yes for Freo

        Suns IN – first round compensation?
        Suns OUT – Lynch

        Suns lose big time

        If Lynch looks set to go he really should do a Dangerfield style deal to ensure the Suns aren’t screwed over

        • March 13th 2018 @ 11:21am
          Trevor said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:21am | ! Report

          If last year’s trade period is any guide, Gold Coast have no objection to losing big time in player movement stakes.

          • Roar Guru

            March 13th 2018 @ 11:45am
            Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:45am | ! Report

            Bollocks, the Suns cut a good deal for Weller. They got their man and as history has shown, high draft picks are worthless for Queensland clubs unless they’re spent on an academy pick, any highly rated interstate kid just ups and leaves after a few years. They will have Weller for 10 years now

            • March 13th 2018 @ 1:08pm
              johno said | March 13th 2018 @ 1:08pm | ! Report

              But they also gave up Saad, Ablett and Matera

              Players will stay f they can see success.

              Under Voss and Leppitsch the Lions could not see that success coming. Under Eade and Mckenna the Suns also had bleak club cultures (m ore so Eade)

              Dew I think will be a great choice and Fagan is a real team builder, bringing in Hodge will prove a master stroke having a player like that around the kids.

              • Roar Guru

                March 13th 2018 @ 1:46pm
                Paul Dawson said | March 13th 2018 @ 1:46pm | ! Report

                Saad is a case in point of what I was saying above about drafting interstaters being a waste of time – from Victoria, devout Muslim, couldn’t handle living in sodom and gomorrah up on the coast so wanted home to spend more time with his family. Suns got a 2nd rounder from Essendon in 2018 in exchange

                Ablett – who cares, he wanted out and the Suns wanted him out. They gave up Ablett, pick 24 and a future 2018 4th rounder In return for pick 19 and Geelong’s future 2nd rounder

                Matera was no loss either, far too inconsistent. Future 3rd rounder in 2018 for him.

                They gave up pick 2 and got Weller, and got rid of Saad, Ablett and Matera for pick 19 last year and they have 3 additional picks in this year’s draft to spend on the next generation

                Still not seeing how this is a loss – once you accept these players were going it’s a matter of what you get for them, and the Suns seem to have done rather well out of it all things considered

              • March 13th 2018 @ 1:56pm
                George said | March 13th 2018 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

                Suns only wanted to keep Saad. People forget that pick 41 was also part of Weller’s trade. Suns drafted Ballard with it who was originally projected late 1 Rd pick.

    • March 13th 2018 @ 6:03am
      Rippa86 said | March 13th 2018 @ 6:03am | ! Report

      All this story needs is a princess to be rescued to become a true fairy tale.

    • March 13th 2018 @ 8:39am
      Tony Tea said | March 13th 2018 @ 8:39am | ! Report

      I barrack for Melbourne. If we were guaranteed Lynch and two first-rounders for Hogan, I’d do the trade tomorrow. Hogan’s possible return to WA and the attendant distraction, plus the fact that Hogan is not as good as his reputation, means that Lynch & two first-rounders would be a massive win for the Dees.

      • March 13th 2018 @ 4:17pm
        Scott said | March 13th 2018 @ 4:17pm | ! Report

        It’s a bloody good deal if it worked. Like you say though they would need to guarantee lynch is coming though

        • Roar Guru

          March 13th 2018 @ 5:26pm
          Handles said | March 13th 2018 @ 5:26pm | ! Report

          Me too. I would do Hogan for Lynch and any (single) first rounder.

    • March 13th 2018 @ 9:24am
      truetigerfan said | March 13th 2018 @ 9:24am | ! Report

      Absolutely would be the right call! Makes perfect sense. Certainly a scenario Melbourne will consider, whether they entertain it is another thing. Club and player loyalty, strong to this point, may well be tested. How do you think Hogan might react if asked to consider such a deal? Surely the Dees would have to think Lynch was over the line before ‘airing’ the idea. Has the potential to explode!

    • March 13th 2018 @ 9:30am
      Birdman said | March 13th 2018 @ 9:30am | ! Report

      The premise of trading Hogan is fair enough but asking for Lynch and two 1st rounders is WAY overs IMHO.

      • Roar Guru

        March 13th 2018 @ 9:37am
        JamesH said | March 13th 2018 @ 9:37am | ! Report

        That’s not the scenario. The hypothetical Josh is putting forward is that Melbourne trades out Hogan for two first round picks from the Dockers, then gets Lynch as a free agent without having to give anything up (other than big $)

        • March 13th 2018 @ 11:00am
          Birdman said | March 13th 2018 @ 11:00am | ! Report

          cheers JamesH.

          I should stop skimming…

          • March 13th 2018 @ 8:31pm
            Julian said | March 13th 2018 @ 8:31pm | ! Report

            DW, I think most of the commenters here seemed to make the same mistake!

    • Roar Guru

      March 13th 2018 @ 9:35am
      JamesH said | March 13th 2018 @ 9:35am | ! Report

      Interesting (and very imaginative!) idea but I think it would be a logistical nightmare. The risk that Hogan would agree to go but the Lynch deal falls over seems too high, and could potentially scupper the club’s top-four ambitions.

    , ,