Israel Folau’s confusion proves good intentions are no match for bad ideas

Clyde Rathbone Columnist

By Clyde Rathbone, Clyde Rathbone is a Roar Expert

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    Israel Folau is confused.

    Not evil nor malicious. Confused. And by no small margin.

    Just as the furore over his recent comments appeared to be fading, he reignited the issue through a piece titled ‘I’m a sinner too’.

    In the article, Folau outlines the religious underpinnings of his beliefs, takes the ARU to task for misrepresenting him and restates his unwavering commitment to his faith.

    While Folau’s column is an impressive testament to the shallowness of his thinking, it also serves to remind us that good intentions are often no match for bad ideas.

    I finished reading his column convinced of two things. Firstly, that his devotion to his faith is driven by a desire to be a good man. And secondly, that many of the ideas rattling around in his head are entirely antithetical to human flourishing. The idea that the bible is an immaculate blueprint upon which we should organise our lives is intellectually toxic and morally disastrous.

    How might one explain the good book’s take on slavery? Let us turn our attention to Exodus 21:20-21.

    “And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.”

    By even the most charitable reading this is unequivocal support for the ownership and torture of human slaves. But while in the West ideas like slavery, beating children with rods and murdering adulterous women have largely escaped the religious support they receive, confusion about what to do with homosexuality persists. And while it should be noted that religious views about homosexuality have evolved, Folau’s comments reveal how much work remains undone.

    This is not to suggest a silver lining cannot be harvested from this mess. The extent to which Folau’s freedom of speech has been preserved is enormously encouraging – at no point has he been muzzled by his employers. Indeed, free speech is the commodity which preserves our ability to protect and evolve anything we do or could value. By granting Folau the liberty to speak his mind we’ve all been invited to make our stand for the ideas we value.

    However, freedom of speech must never be conflated with freedom from consequences. Until recently, Folau has been a sponsor’s dream. Freakishly talented footballers free of controversy are rare, and few Australian athletes have capitalised on their marketability to the extent Folau has.

    This is likely to change. Indeed it should change. Qantas have publicly voiced their concerns and we can be sure Folau’s personal sponsors are keeping a close eye on their star.

    Israel Folau

    (Photo by Mark Nolan/Getty Images)

    What happens next may well define Folau’s legacy. He may double down and persist in condemning all manner of ‘sinners’ to fiery deaths on his Instagram page. Attempting to martyrise himself is neither an intelligent career move nor a way to win the respect of thinking people.

    However, for Folau the door remains well and truly open to an unusually captivating comeback story. I know Israel isn’t about to take advice from a heathen like me, but there are ways for him to adopt more nuanced interpretations of his faith. Interpretations that square his religiosity with the modernity in which he now finds himself.

    Folau completed his piece with the following:

    “At times, you can feel alone and down. But Jesus told us that when you stand up for Him in this world, you can expect backlash. I find peace in that.”

    One day Israel Folau may father a gay son or daughter – how much peace they find in the world will be decided by their father’s ability to change his mind.

    Clyde Rathbone
    Clyde Rathbone

    Former Wallaby & Brumby Clyde Rathbone retired from rugby in 2014. Clyde is a writer, speaker and technology startup founder. A Roar columnist since 2012, you can follow Clyde via his Twitter page.

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    The Crowd Says (573)

    • April 19th 2018 @ 4:50am
      Cuw said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:50am | ! Report

      nice article – well written.

      i think the piece IF wrote was not his prose. someone wrote it for him – perhaps a preacher…

      all this has gotten out of hand. not just in aussy.

      while this was happening – 2 guys who were found innocent by a court of law were sacked by club and country.

      before that one guy was banned for 4 weeks on the accusation of another guy – without any other witness or proof.

      dangerous times ahead….

      • April 19th 2018 @ 9:33am
        Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 9:33am | ! Report

        Do people think it is possible for Folau to remain RAs posterboy after this furore?

        If not, then surely it will negatively impact his market rate even if he stays in Aus rugby?

        What do people think?

        • Roar Guru

          April 19th 2018 @ 10:02am
          The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:02am | ! Report

          Do people think it is possible for Folau to remain RAs posterboy after this furore?

          This will not go away anytime soon and it is hard to see RA (plus their partners) and Israel Folau finding a middle ground when the values they claim to stand behind differ so much.

          The one person I really feel for – and who has been completely silent so far – is Michael Chieka. To potentially lose star players to injury is hard, but very much part of the game, but to lose your star player due to something like this must feel surreal for Chiieka.

          • April 19th 2018 @ 10:27am
            ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:27am | ! Report

            As far as I’m aware, an organisation in Australia can not sack a person based on their religious beliefs. Rugby is not an exception. It would only be if all the media pressure causes Folau to walk away. That would be such a shame, given how far from morally superior the media are, despite how they present themselves.

            • April 19th 2018 @ 10:33am
              Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:33am | ! Report

              Oh, I cannot imagine Folau being sacked.

              However, his contract is up this year and based on how this has played out in the media, from Qantas, from RA and from Folau I can see him being offered a reduced contract, or even no contract at all, if RA are concerned with the publicity he is bringing. They of course would never cite his views as the reason, they would cite something else, I am sure.

              As far as I am aware that would not be breaching any rules. I’d be interested if a lawyer (preferably a QC) with experience in these matters could clarify?

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 10:37am
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:37am | ! Report

                Maybe both parties will understand that they are not made for each other? I happen all the time in life.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 10:38am
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:38am | ! Report

                It would be sad if that happened though. For both Wallabies and Waratahs fans especially.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 10:58am
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:58am | ! Report

                As said before, I feel a little extra for Chieka if that would happen.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:07am
                ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:07am | ! Report

                That wouldn’t make much sense though Neutral. If he didn’t play rugby he would switch back to NRL, which on the surface of things, appears to have a very similar code of values to Rugby. Not sure the NRL can offer him anything different in this regard.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 11:36am
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:36am | ! Report

                Folau himself was very clear in his column at Player Voice that his sporting career is of much less value to him than his beliefs. If there is no room for him in pro sports he seems to be perfectly fine with that.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:53am
                ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:53am | ! Report

                That would make more sense.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 1:27pm
                soapit said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:27pm | ! Report

                nrl have stated his statements wouldnt be acceptable there. they dont need him anything like rugby does

              • April 19th 2018 @ 1:37pm
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:37pm | ! Report

                Soapit, it seemed to me like the NRL was saying that they would have to let him know that they wouldn’t accept such comments, not that the door was already shut.

                Japan, France and the UK look like the places where he could get away from this the easiest though.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 1:46pm
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:46pm | ! Report

                Fionn, not so sure that a high-profile rugby player who believes gays deserve to go to hell – and are very clear about that – would be able to sneak under the media radar in England and France. Both those countries are probably a few years ahead of Australia when it comes to accepting LGBT and SSM.

                Japan I don’t know about.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 1:50pm
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:50pm | ! Report

                Neutral, I’m not sure how you measure the issue, but I don’t think you’re right in thinking that both of those countries are ahead of Australia in terms of LGBT rights.

                And I don’t think the fact that they had same sex marriage first is necessarily representative of anything one way or another as polls consistently showed for years that the Australian populace was one of the most supportive of SSM.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 2:02pm
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:02pm | ! Report

                I should say I don’t think you’re necessarily right. I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong either, just that I haven’t seen much evidence indicating either the UK or France are more accepting.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 2:49pm
                Philip Heron said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:49pm | ! Report

                What would Quade Cooper know? 😉

              • April 19th 2018 @ 3:27pm
                Cuw said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:27pm | ! Report

                Japan is a crazy place – full of contradictions.

                they are very polite. but also very serios about their traditions.

                they look like a very safe place – but their Yakusa are as violent as the Daish !!!

                do u remember when Jerry Collins was charged for carrying a knife in public?

                the Yakusa cut up people who dont abide by their rules. not much happens to them.

                i read somewhere that all the England players have already been warned to “Fully Cover Up ” in public places – becoz the yakusa are known for their intricate artwork on skin.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 6:50pm
                soapit said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:50pm | ! Report

                yep fionn didnt mean it to say the door was shut. simply that the comments were classed as unacceptable and that nrl doesnt have nearly as much incentive to accommodate him beyond their standards as rugby does.

                i doubt he’d go to nrl if he left. reckon he could earn more in european/japan rugby. he’s been out of the nrl for a long time and he’s not a playmaker who would command top dollar. certainly decent money but reckon not as much as the rugby options.

              • May 12th 2018 @ 9:09am
                MW7 said | May 12th 2018 @ 9:09am | ! Report

                His market value has diminished. Not necessarily as a player but certainly as the face of brands. That’s the cream for him.

            • April 19th 2018 @ 11:15am
              Nobody said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:15am | ! Report

              I think sacking Folau is the wrong thing to do. But I would like to see RA stop trying to excuse his comments. I think it would be best if they simply spelled out that they are utterly opposed to such statements, let alone voiced in public, and that in their opinion the best thing would be for Izzy to apologise, but that they think sanctioning him would be counterproductive and so in the end it will be entirely his choice. At least that would take the heat off them.

              (there is a chance that after that chastisement Izzy might then spit the dummy and quit anyway, but as the saying goes you can only lead a horse to water, not make it drink)

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 1:16pm
                Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:16pm | ! Report

                I do not think it is appropriate for employers to become policemen for peoples private opinions, even if they choose to voice those in public.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 1:30pm
                soapit said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:30pm | ! Report

                part of me wouldnt mind if it played out that way just to explore what the legal situation is of all this. sooner or later its gonna come up as an issue and hard to imagine a better example happening

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 1:44pm
                Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:44pm | ! Report

                Agree that soapit. This internet media thing isn’t going to get easier to navigate.

                Imagine if I hacked a “stars” account and started a firestorm.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 6:53pm
                soapit said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:53pm | ! Report

                not to mention societies standards have moved considerably away from religious ones in some key areas recently which makes clashes more frequent. sooner or later tend to think there will have to be a test.

            • April 19th 2018 @ 3:23pm
              Cuw said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:23pm | ! Report

              @ ethan

              the players who were absolved of a crime (rape ) were sacked by both club n country.

              the reasoning was unacceptable behavior on social media.

              • April 20th 2018 @ 12:04am
                Brian said | April 20th 2018 @ 12:04am | ! Report

                Wow, you are really gong to try and defend the reprehensible actions of those two drop kicks?

        • April 19th 2018 @ 6:35pm
          Muzzo said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:35pm | ! Report

          What do I think, Fionn? I think that NO player, is as big as the game.
          As in the past, Iv’e known the likes of Brownlie, Yates, Rangi, Buck, etc etc, who were shown the door. Even the late Keith Murdoch, knew of the consequences, that is one of the reasons he did what he did,.
          IMO, if Folau wants to walk, let him walk.

          • April 19th 2018 @ 11:11pm
            Brian said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:11pm | ! Report

            Why let him choose to walk or not? RA needs to drink a big can of cement on this one.

      • April 19th 2018 @ 3:46pm
        Brisvegas said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:46pm | ! Report

        Nicely written Clyde and I presume without any assistance? Well done

      • April 20th 2018 @ 7:10am
        Jack Mallick said | April 20th 2018 @ 7:10am | ! Report

        I think those two guys were sacked over the behavior issues brought to light in the case. The text messages and everything were published and pretty damning.

        They’re innocent but clearly a pair of arrogant scumbags

    • April 19th 2018 @ 4:55am
      Delanightmares said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:55am | ! Report

      Spot on mate ,apparently the bible mentions not eating shellfish 8 times but only scrapes on man on man stuff twice. ..but gees prawns are yummy lol

      • Roar Guru

        April 19th 2018 @ 9:46am
        jeznez said | April 19th 2018 @ 9:46am | ! Report

        They are so good – we need prawn conversion therapy to stop people liking prawns so we can save their souls!

        Love this piece by Rath, he argues the case much more eloquently than me.

        Was a big fan of his as a player and was lucky enough to have the opportunity to meet him in HK last year when he was the speaker at a mental health fund raiser some mates and I organise. I have a huge amount of respect for him.

        • Roar Guru

          April 19th 2018 @ 10:05am
          The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:05am | ! Report

          I love eating prawns and drinking champagne with my gay mates… I am in serious trouble, especially since I feel no regrets whatsoever.

          • Roar Guru

            April 19th 2018 @ 1:14pm
            jeznez said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:14pm | ! Report

            I’m a big fan of TJP’s comments today as well – especially his final tweet. This is the key message for those of us who disagree with Folau’s view. The message of support to those struggling with their identity and for acceptance.

            “Do not let these comments keep you from being yourself”

            I’d like to add my voice to the conversation currently taking place. As professional rugby players, whether we like it or not, we are role models for a lot of young people. Notably, young Māori and Pasifika people.

            You don’t need to look far to know that young Māori/PI are overrepresented in youth suicide statistics and, as I understand it, even more so when you look to those who are part of the Rainbow community. Comments that cause further harm cannot be tolerated.

            Let it go on record that I am 100% against the comments that were made by Israel. It was not ok to say that. It’s not an attitude I want to see in the game I love. There is no justification for such harmful comments.

            To anyone, young Māori/Pasifika people especially, who may be struggling with their identity – please know that it is ok to be you. You are perfect as you are. Do not let these comments keep you from being yourself. Polynesia has been sexually diverse since forever.

            — Tj Perenara (@Tj_Perenara) April 18, 2018

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 1:24pm
              John R said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:24pm | ! Report

              Agreed Jez, a far more productive way to get your point across than the inflammatory way Weber has articulated his support

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 1:56pm
              The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

              Always suspected that TJ was a guy with his head turned on (that he know the Laws of the game better than many refs is a big tell and he rarely resorts to cliches when interviewed) so I was not completely surprised that he came out and spoke in a very intelligent and caring way.

              Still, I have to say that my respect for TJ has gone through the roof after his. I don’t even know if I will able to be irritated by his constant ref-yapping anymore. I can see myself sitting in front of telly from now on saying:” Come on Ref, it is TJ that is talking, give him some attention and space, he knows a thing or two about rugby and life ey!” 😉

            • April 19th 2018 @ 3:23pm
              Rugby Tragic Too said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:23pm | ! Report

              many polynesian and pacific islanders are devout christians also

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 4:17pm
                jeznez said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:17pm | ! Report

                many devout christians don’t think that homosexuality is a sin

              • April 19th 2018 @ 5:08pm
                Rugby Tragic Too said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:08pm | ! Report

                many do

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 5:13pm
                Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:13pm | ! Report

                Rtt, are you speaking for the majority of christians, or just stabbing in the dark?

                It might be prudent to suggest some do.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 6:03pm
                Rugby Tragic Too said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:03pm | ! Report

                bbk doesn’t matter

                rugby is inclusive

                Folau is not calling for any exclusion, these bandwagoners namely Brad whateverisname is, TJ Perener, and Nic (i’m tipping my hat to myself for waiting for somene else to wait 2 weeks before commenting) White, are though.

                has anyone else theyre all no 9’s…. whats up with that?

            • April 19th 2018 @ 5:33pm
              Moniano said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:33pm | ! Report

              TJP does not know 1 or 2 thing about PIs – or what he called Pasika boys, Pacific Islanders should they be called – Tama, Tangata, tangane, Tamasi’i and so on in polynesian language. The Christian Churches or “siasi” in the pacific island are pretty much what Folau echos, – unless you are an islander you have no idea. I would like TJP to visit on Sunday in New Zealand the islander’s siasi (church) and listen to their sermon, see it there in NZ for himself. He may have to learn all other island polynesian language to understand the sermon, but it is all there.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 6:07pm
                Rugby Tragic Too said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:07pm | ! Report

                there you go

                thanks for the input

                TJ is now just another middle class dinner party socialist

              • April 19th 2018 @ 7:23pm
                soapit said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:23pm | ! Report

                specifically what part of what he said was wrong? or maybe he does actually know?

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:07pm
                Akari said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:07pm | ! Report

                Doing a Jumbo in reverse here, Moniano?

                And nit-picking?

                By the way, Tagata Pasifika is TVNZ’s flagship Pacific news show, telling the stories of Pacific Islanders and its community (see https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/tagata-pasifika).

                And, TJ Perenara referred to young Māori and Pasifika people; not Pasika boys.

              • Roar Guru

                April 20th 2018 @ 3:53am
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 20th 2018 @ 3:53am | ! Report

                Thanks Akari. I wanted to reply myself to Moniano but hoped someone with more knowledge would do it.
                The only thing I wanna add is that to me it appears that TJ has a strong and honest connection to his Polynesian roots and his concern and heart come through as the real deal.

              • April 20th 2018 @ 2:25pm
                Akari said | April 20th 2018 @ 2:25pm | ! Report

                Yup, Moniano’s post was disingenuous IMO and needed to be called out.

                The term Pasifika appears to be widely used in NZ to refer to the Pacific and also to it’s people.

                I am a TJP fan and my regard for him has gone a fair way up now …

            • April 20th 2018 @ 6:00am
              kkovak said | April 20th 2018 @ 6:00am | ! Report

              so its ok to say you support ssm but not ok to say you dont – strange world we live in now . You allow CEOs to use other peoples money to threaten and demand that you support ssm .
              Australia conversion to left wing ideology just about complete. To Quote ” we support free speech but only ifyou agree with us “

              • April 20th 2018 @ 11:10am
                Minz said | April 20th 2018 @ 11:10am | ! Report

                Maaate, you’re drunk. Time to head home for a nap and a hangover.

      • April 19th 2018 @ 3:38pm
        Laurence King said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:38pm | ! Report

        Gee whiz, another person making a comment about the Bible who hasn’t read it and who doesn’t know the first thing about it.

        • April 19th 2018 @ 5:28pm
          Ruckin Oaf said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:28pm | ! Report

          Meh – it’s usually the Christians who don’t know the bible.

    • April 19th 2018 @ 4:55am
      John Templeton said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:55am | ! Report

      Wow. Just wow.

    • April 19th 2018 @ 5:18am
      Andre Delamare said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:18am | ! Report

      Spot on mate, the good book also mentions not eating shellfish eight times but glances over man on man stuff maybe twice…but jeez prawns taste great 😉

    • April 19th 2018 @ 5:30am
      mania said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:30am | ! Report

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/houses/102477592/two-dads-one-baby-and-an-extravagant-mansion
      this’ll confuse folau. 2 male clergy , gay, with a child. living well.

    • Roar Guru

      April 19th 2018 @ 5:40am
      Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:40am | ! Report

      This piece reminds me of a teacher being condescending to a student. No matter how well written, it is condescending, judgemental and of course just another opinion amongst the thousands we have seen thus far

      • April 19th 2018 @ 5:55am
        Taylorman said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:55am | ! Report

        True, and thats because at the heart of it, and after removing the many layers around the issue, is that the message is actually very offensive to a large group of people.

        • Roar Guru

          April 19th 2018 @ 6:18am
          Mick Gold Coast QLD said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:18am | ! Report

          “offensive”

          That is the word which first came to mind for me. Rathbone is a young man with much yet to learn.

        • April 19th 2018 @ 7:15am
          Neil Back said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:15am | ! Report

          Can you explain what you think would be ‘very offensive’ in what was actually said? Or what you distill as ‘the message’?

          • April 19th 2018 @ 7:19am
            Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:19am | ! Report

            Neil, I got the impression Taylorman was saying Folau’s message was offensive, but I could be wrong…

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 7:42am
              rebel said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:42am | ! Report

              Agree Fionn, Tmans views on this have been clear from the beginning.

          • April 19th 2018 @ 9:24am
            Taylorman said | April 19th 2018 @ 9:24am | ! Report

            The statement at the heart of the matter, that gays will go to hell unless they repent their sins is offensive, regardless of who says it, or writes it. Here it just happens to be Folau’s turn.

            It assumes being gay is a choice for a start, and a bad one at that. And I don’t care to argue that its not. Thats not for me, or Folau, to assume, particularly when neither of us has walked the walk.

            • April 19th 2018 @ 10:08am
              Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:08am | ! Report

              Taylorman, sorry for hijacking your comment, but you mentioned Wilbur Smith was your favourite author. Which book(s) of his would you recommend that I read first? Swede’s input would also be appreciated.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 10:30am
                Charlie Turner said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:30am | ! Report

                Fionn, the early novels were the best. Start with When the Lion Feeds (the best imo), if you like it keep reading in chronological order. If you like the genre look for the relatively unknown author James S Rand, he wrote Run for The Trees, Great Sky and the Silence and Viva Ramirez. I read them in my late teens and while the stories are heavy on hunting and probably not for the Greens they are great reads.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 10:35am
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:35am | ! Report

                Cheers, Charlie 🙂 . I’ll check out When the Lion Feeds first.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:06am
                Taylorman said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:06am | ! Report

                Yes When the Lion feeds was his first so should be read first for that reason. A new writer starting out. It introduces the magnificent character of Sean Courtney, the subject of the next two- the Sound of Thounder and A sparrow falls…all great reads.So I’d start with the three. Wish I hadnt ever read them…just so I can read them again!

                I actually started with The Burning Shore, the first of the five Courtneys of Africa. Thats my fave set of books of all time. They take over when Seans and old General so its his line through that one. Someone once said Wilbur sets the scene so clearly that you can almost smell it.

                Monsoon I think was his very best novel though- written at his peak, and must be read after The Birds of prey.

                Every one of the above is a brilliant read in my opinion. And theres several more – River God is back to Egypt days, another great one.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:13am
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:13am | ! Report

                Thanks for the detailed reply, mate, I appreciate it. Think I will start with When the Lion Feeds.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 1:47pm
                richard said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:47pm | ! Report

                The River God is excellent but The Sunbird is his greatest novel IMHO.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 2:23pm
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:23pm | ! Report

                Thanks, Richard. I’ll have a read of the descriptions of them.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 2:38pm
                Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:38pm | ! Report

                The thing that drew me towards WilburSmith’s books in the first place was his vivid character descriptions, halfway through a novel you knew how the character in the book would behave before Smith would write it.

              • Roar Rookie

                April 19th 2018 @ 2:43pm
                piru said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:43pm | ! Report

                River God was my favourite novel for many years

                Can’t believe no one’s tried to make it into a movie yet

              • April 19th 2018 @ 8:36pm
                The Slow Eater said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:36pm | ! Report

                I loved River God. A fantastic read. And yes – would be a cracking movie. Maybe I should read it again – it’s been some time 😀

              • April 19th 2018 @ 2:48pm
                Rugby Tragic Too said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:48pm | ! Report

                piru yes I always thought it and the rest of the series could easily be adapted to make a great movie trilogy

              • April 19th 2018 @ 2:54pm
                Taylorman said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:54pm | ! Report

                Yes the Red road race in Warlock was stunning, should be an Olympic sport. That series would make great viewing. Sunbird is almost a condensed portrayal of the first three egypt books with the modern/ ancient flip.
                Fionn youre lucky if youve got all that in front of you.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 2:54pm
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:54pm | ! Report

                Cheers, Biltong, you agree with those recommended thus far?

                Thank too, Piru. My favourite novel for a number of years was the first book in a trilogy called ‘We Were Counted’ that was written by a Hungarian author and politician named Miklós Bánffy, published in 1934. It is similar to War and Peace in terms of word length and in the length of the period it covers. Set in Transylvania and Budapest it covers the period from 1905 (from memory) until the outbreak of the Great War from the Hungarian perspective. It looks at the politics of the day and the experiences of the people living in the period of 1905-14, how they were changed by world events and the impact of a world in flux in terms of industry, politics and social change.

                I’ve always enjoyed the epic, and like War and Peace because you spend so long with these characters and see them grow you really grow to empathise with them and love them, and the change in Hungarian society is fascinating too, at least for me as someone who is interested in history and whose family originally came from Transylvania when it was a part of Hungary.

                Bánffy was a Hungarian politician in the years the book covers, as well as eventually becoming Minister of Foreign Affairs after the war. I think it is a fascinating look at things, and you don’t necessarily happen to be aware of the European/Hungarian politics of the period.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 8:44pm
                The Slow Eater said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:44pm | ! Report

                A totally different genre Fionn but that’s one of the reasons I enjoy some of the Science Fiction Fantasy books. Many of them have multiple books and you really get to understand characters.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 3:01pm
                Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:01pm | ! Report

                Yeah fion, definitely

              • April 19th 2018 @ 3:34pm
                Cuw said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:34pm | ! Report

                @ piru said

                “River God was my favourite novel for many years

                Can’t believe no one’s tried to make it into a movie yet ”

                too detailed – i may be wrong but i doubt any of WS ‘ books have been made into films

                once u take out the details in making a film – it becomes bland.

                simple eg – Jack Reacher. the film is nothing like the book.

                i think that is why after the success of some of the films – JOHN Grisham stared writing scrips – rather than novels. his later novels are boring.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 4:49pm
                Fionn said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:49pm | ! Report

                Most of the details in The Lord of the Rings were taken out, and that was a fantastic trilogy in my opinion.

                The Russian version of War and Peace is also exceedingly good (admittedly about a 6 hour mini series, but still nowhere near as detailed as the book, of course).

              • Roar Rookie

                April 20th 2018 @ 1:38pm
                piru said | April 20th 2018 @ 1:38pm | ! Report

                Cuw, yes, but River God is a very visual book, the characters are larger than life and easily identifiable and relatable.

                Would make a stunning trilogy in my opinion, if I didn’t know better I’d think it was written with it in my mind

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 10:08am
              The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:08am | ! Report

              The statement at the heart of the matter, that gays will go to hell unless they repent their sins is offensive, regardless of who says it, or writes it.

              Spot on! That is the root of all this and it is sad to see so many resorting to extremes just to avoid accepting and facing this rather simple fact

            • April 19th 2018 @ 10:32am
              ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:32am | ! Report

              The real issue is that the correct interpretation of “hell” as found in the scriptures is not the one that has been taught in churches for multiple centuries. It is not an eternal fiery pit of torture. If you want to learn more, you can read here: http://www.coghomeschool.org/site/cog_archives/booklets/To%20Hell%20and%20Back.htm

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 10:41am
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:41am | ! Report

                That is interesting and I will have a look ethan.

                BUT!

                It is not the real issue here IMHO. I very much agree with T-man what the real issue is.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:10am
                ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:10am | ! Report

                Great, its good having open minded discussion about these things!

                The real issue being that Folau’s comments were offensive? See I don’t think he intended for them to be. He was simply answering according to his understanding of the Bible. But I believe his understanding is incorrect, which is why I see it as the real issue. If he had a different understanding, he might not have answered so bluntly, and the result would have been different.

                Or do you see the real issue as something else?

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:37am
                Nobody said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:37am | ! Report

                The real issue is that the bible is homophobic to the max and god has absolutely no hesitation in stating that gay men should be put to death (please argue this point because I’m just waiting for someone to equivocate how Leviticus 20:13 means something other than what it says). So, any other cherry-picked comment from the bible should be viewed in that context.

                (having said that, god has no hesitation in sentencing people to death for all sorts of things. Better not gather sticks on the sabbath. (Numbers 15:32-36). Honestly…)

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 11:51am
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:51am | ! Report

                Likewise ethan, it is good to have an open-minded discussion.

                To say someone is going to hell (even if that someone doesn’t believe in hell) because how they were born/are (not how they chose to be or believe) is offensive yes. Some things in life we can’t control, like what color our skin has, who are parents and siblings are, what our sex is, what our sexual preferences are. And therefore we should never be judged by this.
                I think this is what you are saying in a way, but if God has created us, how can his creations be wrong? God creates gay men, so how can he condemn them to hell? Makes zero sense to me.

                I think the really interesting discussion right now would be between you and Israel Folau. If you two can find a middle ground in this, then there is a big chance for progress that would benefit – more or less – everyone.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 12:03pm
                ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 12:03pm | ! Report

                Neutral,
                As per the link I shared, I believe an accurate translation of the word “hell” from the Bible, in the original manuscripts, is simply “grave”. Therefore, to say someone is going to their grave is not offensive – as we all are at some point! (But to say someone is going to an eternal fiery pit of torture due to something they have no control over is obviously a much more concerning thing to say, so I can understand the backlash from that perspective).

                I would love to have a discussion with Israel, unfortunately I doubt it can be organised!

                Nobody,
                Again, you have cherry picked two single lines from the Bible without considering the context of the chapter they are contained within as a whole, as well as the times/laws/customs in place at the time of their existence. I agree, read on their own those lines don’t paint things in such a good light, but in order to interpret things properly you have to dig deeper. They are good questions to ask though.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 1:19pm
                Nobody said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:19pm | ! Report

                Again, you have cherry picked two single lines from the Bible without considering the context of the chapter they are contained within as a whole, as well as the times/laws/customs in place at the time of their existence.

                Oh, squirm like a squirmy thing.

                Numbers 15:32-36 is at least five lines, did you not notice?

                Please do tell me how I could possibly take Leviticus 20:13 out of context, or how the times/laws/customs in place at the time might have an effect on god’s “moral laws”. Are you saying that god changed his (apologies to any offended by the masculine possessive but christianity’s god is male remember) mind on some stuff over time?

                I would happily quote the lines above to make people realise how terrible they are, but then I would have to cherry-pick a bible version first wouldn’t I, and then you’d be able to dismiss the one I chose as no true Scotsman. Oh you devious little christians! Instead I’ll lump them all together in a very disrespectful way and say they’re all full of it. Feel free to pick the most sanitised version you can find for us to debate.

                in order to interpret things properly you have to dig deeper

                I call bull, but dig away. It’s not like people have not had plenty of time to address these little issues, so there ought to be good arguments for you to find by now. If there are any.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 2:47pm
                Nobody said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:47pm | ! Report

                In retrospect I feel I should probably have provided links to the bible verses I quoted for context; the context of what I said that is, not the context of the bible verses themselves, which by definition are always taken out of context if quoted by an atheist. Not knowing which are the “best” versions of them to quote, I’ll paraphrase them. I’ll also provide links to the ones from the (chooses at random) King James bible . Feel free to correct me if I’ve “misinterpreted” them.

                Leviticus 20:13 is the one where god lays down the law that a homosexual act is punishable by death

                Numbers 15:32-36 is a nice little parable about how some Israelites found a man collecting sticks on the sabbath. They took him to Moses. “Oh lord, what shall we do with him?” “Stone him to death”, sayeth the lord. So they did, and he died, the end.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 2:52pm
                Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:52pm | ! Report

                Nobody,

                It is not the misquote it is the misuse.

                An équivalent might be me reading Sharia law at you and condemning you through it. I might read and quote it correctly — but it isn’t relevant to you.

                The old jewish law is not a law Christians live under. In fact, following the teaching of Jesus Christ is about relationship and not rules at all.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 3:25pm
                ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:25pm | ! Report

                On Numbers,
                This occurred during the 40 years during which God was leading the people around the wilderness, after he had helped them escape Egypt. He had performed much magic to help them escape and live on a day to day basis during that time, and was directly and audibly communicating with them and their leaders. Therefore, with the evidence they had, the people there had no reason to doubt God’s leadership and power, as people have good reason for their doubt today. One of God’s commands during his leadership in this time was to keep the Sabbath, and everybody knew it. Some people had already broken that rule yet God showed mercy, albeit using it as a warning not to do so again. Kind of like the 4th penalty on your own goal line, where the next one goes to the bin. In other words, if you don’t learn the first time, you must learn through harsher punishment. God knew that if you are to spend 40 years in the wilderness together, you need the people to be unified, and treated equally, or there will be trouble. It would not be fair for him to allow some to break Sabbath and not others. Since they didn’t learn the first time, he then gave harsher punishment, to ensure they would. Some might say death was too harsh. But remember, they showed direct disobedience, even defiance, to the very one who saved them. And further more, the spirit of that disobedience is the very thing that would put the whole community at risk, because they could not afford rebelliousness and people being laws unto themselves in their position. When you read those few lines of Numbers as quoted it makes it sound like they were put to death for some trivial thing, but you can see, when you consider the context of the whole, that it was not trivial at all.

                This is also very different from our current times, where we see no magic, have no prophets, and are not in direct audible communication with God. In our time we must live in faith, and make the best interpretations we can out a text thousands of years old. But in Moses time they had direct evidence, and direct communication with God. Therefore they could not claim ignorance as we can, and the expectations were much much higher. Most of us are also not fleeing an enemy, or having to do battles with enemies. But you know, those who are – soldiers in armies – have very strict rules they must follow as well, else suffer severe punishments – because now as then, in those kind of situations it is very important to have unity, everyone working together, treated equally and so on, or you will destroy yourself.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 4:00pm
                Nobody said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:00pm | ! Report

                Numbers: tl;dr – the context was that god had to set harsh punishments to force those who repeatedly disobeyed to toe the line. Thank you ethan for clearing it up that:

                – god is not omnipotent
                – god made some silly bad laws that are now out of date
                – though doublethink faith you can ignore that they were silly and bad and view it all as part of god’s wondrous cleverness
                – god thought those laws should be kept in the book with jesus’ teachings because… well I can’t think of any good reason but I’m sure you’ll come up with one
                – without any caveat that not all of that book should be taken literally
                – and yet if a non-believer should quote any laws, they should be accused of “misusing” them

                Got it. And Leviticus 20:13?

              • April 19th 2018 @ 4:33pm
                ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:33pm | ! Report

                On Leviticus,
                This is one of hundreds of laws given to Moses people after God helped them out of Egypt. Most of these laws are not applicable today, and were relating only to the specific circumstances of the times. When Jesus came he fulfilled Mosaic (Levitical) Law, and it was replaced. Many of these people were from slavery, illiterate, and had hundreds of years of influence of Pagan ways by their rulers. The idea of Mosaic law was to turn them away from their sinful ways. God made it clear homosexuality is not the intended way, along with incest, and many things, and he outlawed it. But this is not black and white. Some people who interpret the original manuscripts claim it wasn’t referring to homosexuality, but other things. I can’t say either way on that, so you’ll have to do your own research and come to your own conclusions. If we assume it does mean homosexuality, you will say it doesn’t matter what the circumstances of the time, it is never ok to punish someone to death for something they have no control over. But it is still not black and white. Because there were three different types of laws. Moral laws, ceremonial laws, and civil laws. This one appears to be a civil law. The same way driving over the speed limit is a civil law today. Which means it is something that for whatever reason (and I don’t claim to properly know the reason) was deemed inappropriate for those times.

                So the way some people take that one out of context, is in the belief that Mosaic Law applies to all people of all times, when it doesn’t.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 7:34pm
                Nobody said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:34pm | ! Report

                The saddest thing is that I think you really believe all that. Oh well.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 11:56pm
                Ex force fan said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:56pm | ! Report

                Nobody. Ethan is spot-on and he is not the only one that believe that the holiness code that Moses gave to the Isrealites do not apply to us today. Even a man called Jesus did.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 9:16pm
                ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 9:16pm | ! Report

                You asked.

            • April 19th 2018 @ 5:41pm
              Moniano said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:41pm | ! Report

              How is this statement “non-Christians go to hell”? offensive? to who?

        • Roar Guru

          April 19th 2018 @ 1:18pm
          Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:18pm | ! Report

          If you get offended easily, hide away and don’t read anything you don’t already agree with.

          • Roar Guru

            April 19th 2018 @ 2:09pm
            The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:09pm | ! Report

            Is that not exactly what most people do Ralph? Even here at the Roar? Problem is this time the s**t hit the fan in our little rugby bubble.

            Still gotta say that almost all regular Roarers – on both sides of the fence – has handled this with class and actually proved that the talk of rugby being an inclusive sport with strong humanistic values has merit (at least among us tragics here at the Roar).
            I have been involved in similar discussions on other forums (in real life and on the web) and it has gone ugly and sideways from the start almost every time.

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 5:39pm
              Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:39pm | ! Report

              Ah yes, taking offence seems to be the national pastime in NZ and Australia.

              If only it paid well ..

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 6:58pm
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:58pm | ! Report

                No worries mate, the full contact sport “taking offense” has a bigger international spread than rugby.

          • April 19th 2018 @ 4:44pm
            i miss the force said | April 19th 2018 @ 4:44pm | ! Report

            so ralph, you can throw the old testament away?

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 5:28pm
              Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:28pm | ! Report

              If you intend to use it as a set of rules to thump people with, then yes.

              More than that and we should start a theological web site.

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 5:37pm
              Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:37pm | ! Report

              More nuance.

              Your question has no context so is largely meaningless. Are you a messianic jew perhaps? Are you a history scholar studying the period?

              You are almost certainly asking the wrong question.

              But as above, whoever you are and whatever your goal, please don’t take something you don’t understand and use it to bash other people with.

      • April 19th 2018 @ 6:06am
        Jack Mallick said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:06am | ! Report

        I find Clyde’s articles are always interesting to read, but nearly always condescending.

        • April 19th 2018 @ 8:19am
          Jameswm said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:19am | ! Report

          I think Folau is misguided. Does that make me condescending?

          • April 19th 2018 @ 8:38am
            I ate pies said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:38am | ! Report

            Yes

            • April 19th 2018 @ 11:00am
              jameswm said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:00am | ! Report

              OK.

              It’s not me expressing a different view? Or would I only be able to say “I don’t agree”?

              • April 19th 2018 @ 3:42pm
                JJJ said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:42pm | ! Report

                No, its just you being condescending.

          • Roar Guru

            April 19th 2018 @ 5:16pm
            Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 5:16pm | ! Report

            One thing to say you disagree with him, or disagree vehemently with him, saying he is misguided is passing judgement.

      • Roar Guru

        April 19th 2018 @ 6:41am
        Mick Gold Coast QLD said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:41am | ! Report

        That’s a fair summary biltongbek.

        Previous pieces on this subject have attracted 460, 700, 530, 360, 740 and 360 comments, many from hitherto unsighted contributors – a flash mob rostered on to this site lobbying vigorously for its cause before a convenient large audience.

        It all offers a stark reminder of the importance and value of freedom of expression, and of the determined mindset of those who would deny it.

        • April 19th 2018 @ 7:11am
          BennO said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:11am | ! Report

          Yes look at all this denial of free speech happening. All these articles trying to prevent further comment. Look at how Folau has not had the chance to speak his mind further because everyone had been stopping him from speaking.

          Why are you so offended by people with a different view, Mick? Especially for someone who loves to complain about people taking offense so easily. And how many times does the difference between freedom of speech and freedom from consequences, need to be explained?

          Say what you like. Live with the consequences. I don’t understand why that is so difficult to understand for so many cranky old buggers.

          • Roar Guru

            April 19th 2018 @ 7:17am
            Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:17am | ! Report

            I think most would agree that freedom of speech and freedom of consequences go hand in hand.

            • April 19th 2018 @ 7:28am
              BennO said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:28am | ! Report

              Huh? So say what you what but others have no freedom in how they respond to you?

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 7:36am
                Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:36am | ! Report

                Of course they do, but it doesn’t put them free from consequences, sorry I see the misunderstanding, I mean’t not free from consequences.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 7:37am
                BennO said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:37am | ! Report

                Right. So all of this is just the consequences of Folau taking a diametrically opposed line from his employer and sponsors. What’s the problem?

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 7:39am
                Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 7:39am | ! Report

                I don’t have an issue with the consequences just the manner in which it is delivered.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 8:04am
                BennO said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:04am | ! Report

                So you don’t like what other people are saying in response to Folau, but you’re definitely happy for them to say it, right?

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 8:13am
                Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:13am | ! Report

                You are now just looking for an argument where there is none.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 8:18am
                BennO said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:18am | ! Report

                Genuinely not. I’m trying to understand your thinking because it seems representative of many and they appear to be hypocritical.

                It seems to be free speech but not for those who get upset by other’s speech.

                Genuinely don’t care to argue, just trying to understand.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 9:11am
                Corne Van Vuuren said | April 19th 2018 @ 9:11am | ! Report

                Its simple, my point of view from the beginning has not wavered, Folau was naive to think he could “advise” an anonymous poster on a very controversial subject.

                Yes he had the right to air his belief but should have known there is going to be backlash.

                It is fine for all to criticise if they so wish, yet this article comes across as condescending and judgemental.

                Nothing more, nothing less.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 8:04pm
                Peter Kelly said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:04pm | ! Report

                Folau would have to be extremely naive to not expect a backlash for his statement.
                First for his religious views and secondly for condemning gay people.
                Can’t see what part of his comment wasn’t going to get people fired up especially in today’s climate and with social media.
                I thought his article on inflamed the issue further by confirming his interpretation of his religious views.

            • Roar Guru

              April 19th 2018 @ 1:22pm
              Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:22pm | ! Report

              I agree 100% BB.

              How cruel to tell the person in slavery her freedom is something that only exists in so far as she does not exercise it.

              You can run free if you like, but don’t think there won’t be “consequences”, because we’ll hunt you down.

              • April 19th 2018 @ 1:46pm
                soapit said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:46pm | ! Report

                is that the only consequence y9ou can think of ralph?

                micks comment is ridiculous

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 2:09pm
                Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:09pm | ! Report

                Sorry soapit, I didn’t quite get you there.

                Freedom that cannot speak is not freedom.

                I am against this use of the word ‘consequences’ to cover removing the right to speak.

                Does that help?

              • April 19th 2018 @ 6:58pm
                soapit said | April 19th 2018 @ 6:58pm | ! Report

                i probably didnt understand you right the first time.

                i do think the slavery example is not relevent. a society should be mature enough to handle nuance enough to differentiate the significant differences between the slavery example and what is happening here, and draw the line somewhere in between.

          • Roar Guru

            April 19th 2018 @ 11:26am
            Mick Gold Coast QLD said | April 19th 2018 @ 11:26am | ! Report

            “I don’t understand why that is so difficult to understand for so many cranky old buggers”

            That is about as pertinent and persuasive as Clyde’s effort.

            “Why are you so offended by people with a different view, Mick?”

            I did not express any opinion on the main issue, you made this up.

            “Especially for someone who loves to complain about people taking offense so easily”

            Oh? I have made no such complaint at The Roar – you made this up as well.

            “… how many times does the difference between freedom of speech and freedom from consequences …”

            This was not raised by me, it has nought to do with the substance or context of the matters I raised. You raised this bit, it belongs to you.

            Again:

            “difficult to understand for so many cranky old buggers”

            Did I state that I was cranky? Or old? Yet again you have made something up. You are not very good at this are you Benno?

            • Roar Rookie

              April 19th 2018 @ 1:02pm
              Sage said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:02pm | ! Report

              “Why are you so offended by people with a different view, Mick?”

              I did not express any opinion on the main issue, you made this up.

              Thinking maybe you did Mick. You referenced the word “offensive” as the first word that came to your mind and then inferred it was Mr Rathbone causing you the offence. Then a bit of condescension “Rathbone is a young man with much yet to learn.” Yes, not pertinent or persuasive for you either. Well if he has a different view to you he must have much yet to learn, mustn’t he.
              You have also consistently referred to those with a dissenting view to you as “the flash mob” and above, that have been “rostered onto this site”. Based on what? Cause Mick says so?
              You also don’t have to state you’re cranky for that to be the case.

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 2:13pm
                Mick Gold Coast QLD said | April 19th 2018 @ 2:13pm | ! Report

                “offensive … Well if he has a different view to you …”

                To Folau you nong, not to me, to Folau. One is not going to get very far in a debate, in an intelligent debate, by first stating the other party is “confused”. That is condescending, judgemental, offensive to the other party – an immature, poorly educated stance. The subject matter is incidental.

                “dissenting view to you as “the flash mob” and above, that have been “rostered onto this site”. Based on what …”

                Do try to keep up. Once again, I did not express any opinion on the main issue. You made this part up.

                I have commented on the political tactic – the lobby / pressure group tactic – which is self evident just now and crystal clear in argument on several issues conducted here before you joined two years ago, on natural resources, Quade Cooper, Sir Richie’s-a-cheat and a couple of others about which the natives got restless and hysterical.

                I do believe I have mentioned “flash mob” once or twice before in this current imbroglio – not at all in the context of “a dissenting view to you” but clearly as an observation of political tactics.

                “Based on what …?” I hear you ask. That is self evident: an observed extraordinary increase in contributions from hundreds to thousands, characterised by hitherto unsighted identities who disappear after the bout concludes. Do your own research.

                Why in the sweet cheeses you would think I come here to read or discuss subjects other than rugby is most amusing. If you knew anything about the game you would be well aware most present (in normal periods) are flat out making sense in an exchange on rugby let alone anything of much lower importance.

              • Roar Rookie

                April 19th 2018 @ 3:51pm
                Sage said | April 19th 2018 @ 3:51pm | ! Report

                Firstly Mick, you can respond to people with a little less rudeness and still make your point. Name calling isn’t necessary and diminishes your commentary. It is condescending and offensive, the very things you decry. You responded to this from Taylorman “the message is actually very offensive to a large group of people” and noted that’s the first word to come to your mind too. So you were responding under the comment from Taylorman on offensiveness and noted it also came to your mind, but you were only offended on behalf of Israel. I see, very gallant. And it’s the others involved in a political tactic – the lobby / pressure group tactic. The flash mob, the ones rostered to this site who disagree with you. Of course.
                Why in the sweet cheeses you would think I come here to read or discuss subjects other than rugby is most amusing.. I think the answer here is “This was not raised by me, it has nought to do with the substance or context of the matters I raised. You raised this bit, it belongs to you”.
                More commentary on a subject people care about wouldn’t necessarily also mean people had been rostered to do so or that they are a mob. Just public commentary on something many people care about on a public site inviting commentary. There isn’t anything self evident at all, just your opinion. And why in the sweet cheeses you would demean yourself bothering to comment on something of so little importance to you?
                So in your self acclaimed superiority, I know nothing about the game and I’ve been here 2 years? You need to do a little bit more research Mick.
                If you wish to respond I welcome it but please try and be a bit more civil and accurate, especially when you’re trying to be derogatory

              • Roar Guru

                April 19th 2018 @ 8:56pm
                Mick Gold Coast QLD said | April 19th 2018 @ 8:56pm | ! Report

                Well now – the first bloke weighs in with:

                “Why are you so offended by people with a different view”

                after I had expressed no view, then finishes by lumping me in with the

                “cranky old buggers”

                Then the second palooka, after I made clear to him that which was already clear, with:

                “I did not express any opinion on the main issue, you made this up.”

                contradicts what I made known with what he invents:

                “Thinking maybe you did”

                and then he pleads for lovely niceness!

                Nah, an unearned courtesy.

                Now, what was that 2nd last paragraph all about Sage? Oh yes, superiority.

                Stand aside, I’m done with you. You may curtsy or bow as I pass.

              • Roar Rookie

                April 20th 2018 @ 8:27am
                Sage said | April 20th 2018 @ 8:27am | ! Report

                Yes Mick, it probably is wiser for you to walk away. A rather fast clip whilst looking over your shoulder. Byyyyyy Mick.
                You show twice the arrogance of posters here with half the reason. Go well Mick.

      • April 19th 2018 @ 10:28am
        ethan said | April 19th 2018 @ 10:28am | ! Report

        But of course, its ok to have an opinion on something if the media agrees with it biltongbek 😉

        • Roar Guru

          April 19th 2018 @ 1:23pm
          Ralph said | April 19th 2018 @ 1:23pm | ! Report

          Morality by media, ha ha ha ha. Oh Mercy!

      • Roar Guru

        April 21st 2018 @ 1:19pm
        RobC said | April 21st 2018 @ 1:19pm | ! Report

        Yes BB

        He’s passing judgement assuming he’s the authority and righteous abritrar on this topic whilst patronisingly portraying another person’s considered beliefs as the thinking of a brainwashed git

        It’s not the first article he’s done it. Maybe he will improve with age.

        • May 12th 2018 @ 9:06am
          MW7 said | May 12th 2018 @ 9:06am | ! Report

          Clyde is sharing his opinion, as you are and I am. I don’t agree with what IF says. It is unfounded and hateful, even if it come from what he thinks is a good place. What do you think?

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