Who feels sorry for Manly fans?

Good. Thanks for finally giving me the last word. That you choose to believe Manly is innocent of all accusations is credit to your undying devotion to your club. I'm far too cynical to ignore so much evidence even if it is circumstantial. I don't respect Manly for the plethora of reasons I've provided and once again I'll answer the question which began this entire debate by saying no, I don't feel sorry for Manly. Never will.

Now I'm biased for defending against rubbish being said against the Manly side. Sheesh talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Mate I've given you evdience and you come back with stories such as the game being 'owned' by Kerry Packer. Where on Earth did you drag that up from. Yes he had a strong financial interest in the game, but the game was independent before Murdock's push. It was under his thumb from that point on. That's one of the big diffeences pointed out often between Australian Rules and Rugby League. Rules remained independent. And I dont recall Artherson saying anything like he wanted 6 teams. If he had said such a thing it would have been in jest. He loved the game as it was and was responsible, with Quayle in increasing the competition to 22 teams...or have you forgotten that. Mate, I have given you the information, which you have ignored, as to what happened because I was keeping a very close eye on what was happening back in the 1996-7 period. I'll also point out that as a youngester I was Bear supporter because we lived in Lindfield and my father was raised in Chatswood. Though we swtiched to Manly when we moved to a location above Brookvale Oval, I always had a soft spot for Norths, which remained my second team. I was horrified by the consequence of Superleague, but have always spoken out supporting Norths at central Coast. But unlike you, I'm pragmatic and realised Norths were unlikely to have a future, in part because they had an ineffective management and were broke But this is where I conclude this discussion, wich I've had with you and Paling in the past. If you want to wallow over what you think was an injustice by Manly over Norths decades ago, I cant stop you. But to seek to put Manly down hoping to put them out of the game, is just childish vengeful bitterness and is totlally against spirit of the comraderie of League supporters. I dont llike some other teams also, but I respect their right and support their right to exist. Obviously you think hurting supporters of the Manly team by seeking its demise is justifiable vengence. Says something about your nature. I wont be responding to any further comments. Have a nice life.

Your Manly bias is showing. But that's what this debate has been all along. Here's a quick refresher on what actually happened: Arko supported the ARL because it was owned by Kerry Packer. He was funding their side of the war to maintain broadcasting rights for Channel 9 and Optusvision. It had nothing to do with the greater good of rugby league and Arthursons support was just for the benefit of the Sea Eagles. If he had been so altruistic as you suggest why didn't he insist on a bail out for Norths? Why did he send them on the fools errand to the Central Coast? Why didn't he use his position and standing in the game to keep the Northern Eagles together? Why? Because he wanted the entire area from Kirribilli to the central coast for the benefit of the Sea Eagles. Now they're the only team in the entire region. What a coincidence? Iin the mid 80's Arthurson proposed a "Super League" consisting of just 5 Sydney teams and of course Manly was going to be one. He eventually got his wish.

Real easy to point the finger at Manly for Norths problems. Sure Manly had money during the 70s and 80s. If you think they had lots of money in the 90s, you're delusional. They almost went broke during that period. Easy to pick names out of the hat of those who've played for Manly. I could do that with at least 8 other teams in the comp. Who has the money now and is running the game? You forget also that it was Arthuson who fought tooth and nail to protect the ARL and save teams like Norths from disappearing during the superleague wars. If Arko and Quayle had still been running the game in recent times Norths would still be there...easy to forget that. Sorry but your miopic vision and bitterness have blinded you from what really happened. Easy just to blame Manly. And maybe if your revered North Sydney admin had fought the matter through the courts like Souths did, they could still be there. But they didnt did they

Yep, still not a Bears fan. Besides, thanks to Manly, even if I wanted to there's no team to support. The other joint ventures haven't settled???? Please! They both won a premiership. That they argue at board level or among fans of the former entities is a non-issue. I'm sure the Bears fans would happily cheer on their side and argue with Manly fans if it meant a continued existence? It's certainly better than what they have now. Thanks for mentioning the salary cap. Once again Manly, thanks to Arko running the game, enjoyed their version of the salary cap whilst the other clubs were compelled to follow the league dictated ceiling. Canberra get done in 1991 yet Manly get away with a team including Bella, Hasler, Kevin & Tony Iro, Lyons, O'Connor, Roberts, Toovey and Darrell Williams. Australian or Kiwi rep players all and that's just 4 short of a full team. It's stuff like that which sticks in the craw. Arthurson and Fulton throughout their entire association with the game did what they could at all levels for the greater good of the Manly Sea Eagles. You can enjoy the success they achieved but don't ask other fans to cop it sweet and feel sorry for your club when fortunes finally turn and you don't have guardian angels at head office helping your club.

Bear54 lets get your history on track so you can deal with the real villains of the piece that brought the end of Norths. Superleague envisioned a 14 team comp...no more...but would not have got off the ground had the Bulldogs not accepted the money and switched. Manly were offered a place but refused staying loyal to the ARL, which including retaining Norths. Penrith switched and so did Cronulla, a team that other teams had earlier assisted financially, including Manly. But it was Canterbury that ensured SuperLeague was the victor and that meant the rest of the Sydney teams were second tier. Now understand this. If Manly had switched, Murdock would have won completely and the rest of the Sydney comp would be second tier, which might I add is where Norths are now. Now blaming Manly for what happened with the Northern Eagles is just biased comment. No amalgamted side has settled effectively if you look. Balmain and Wests are always at each others throats and if you look at St George supporters sites you'll see the anger regarding the sense that Wollongong has precedence. Any problem between Norths and Manly at best should be equally shared. Dont suggest Manly had an ulterior motive for the money. They woud have got the money anyway. They wanted Norths in the association because they saw it as strengthening the combined clubs against the money clubs that had been paid off big by Murdock such as the Dogs, Sharks and Panthers. The problem is that ever since Masters started this Silvertail issue, supporters of other clubs have identified Manly as the bad guys. And why. Because they were winning. Look at the clubs that have rorted the cap time and again on Google since 2000 odd. Manly and the Titans were the only teams that had not been nabbed up until now. And what happens. Parra, Canterbury and Melbourne were caught with far worse issues but were penalised effectively for ONE season, though Melbourne did have it premierships taken from them.. Manly cops two seasons of significantly reduced cap as well as a fine. Where is parity? You see Norths as a victim. I see Manly as copping consistent harassment without being found guilty once until this incident and Penn is prepared to fight that . Why would he waste the money? Manly are also a victim mate. You just dont see it through your red and black glasses.

Hardly. I can enjoy the success of most other clubs (except Melbourne or Brisbane because of their association with John Ribot). St George, Penrith and New Zealand are playing a great brand of football at the moment and watching them is as enjoyable as watching the wonderful Newcastle era with Johns or more recently North Queensland or Cronulla. In 2015, my wife and I attended the GF and cheered our socks off for the Cowboys as I did for St George in 2011 and before that the West Tigers when they won their maiden in 2005. This article posed the question: Who feels sorry for Manly? So in the context of answering I gave my reasons why. My dislike for that club doesn't dominate my enjoyment of the game it merely accompanies it in the same way it did when (since you brought him up) John Howard was destroyed in his own electorate in 2007 when the LNP were rightfully booted out of office. Yes, Manly's despicable nature occurred in the past but where else would these examples live? Why should I forgive them? Do Dragons fans dismiss their run of 11 straight premierships? Do Parramatta forget the 80's? (God help them if they did because there's little else to cling to out there??) Last time I passed Manly Leagues Club they had their premiership seasons listed across the entrance. Why would they bother? It happened in the past? Of course history defines our opinions and prejudices. As the saying goes, I support my team and anyone playing Manly (except Melbourne or Brisbane and doesn't it really tick me off when the Eagles can't even get that right???). It gives me two teams to root for every weekend.

Bear54. All I can say is that its time to get over something that may or may not have happened 50,40 and 30 years ago. For goodness sake mate, the people, players even many of the supporters are different now at Manly. Its not Arko's side any more. Its effectively, like most clubs, a totally different set of elements. Your's and Palings obsessive behaviour about Manly is like a grudge someone has over a school dance 50 years ago when another guy got the girl you wanted to be with. Its gone, past, history. Or are you the type who blames someone for the behaviour of their great grandfather etc. Get over it and enjoy the game for what it is. The Manly of today IS NOT the Manly of yesteryear. No team is. If Manly goes they wont bring back the Bears at North Sydney. League will die on the north shore and beaches. Is that what you want? Talk about miopic bitterness. Holding that grudge is just plain fixation and it seems the only issue you guys have left to talk about in league. And that's sad.

Not a Norths supporter but would cheerfully have them in the competition instead of Manly....... and I live on the northern beaches.

You're right Paling. Your comments as usual about Manly are unsportsmanlike

Great revisinist comments worthy of John Howard Bear64. Gosh you Norths supporters know how to tell a great fairy tale, as long as manly are the monster.

Norths were told by the ARL to develop Grahame Park and set themselves up on the Central Coast which pretty much sent them broke while Arko nearly sent Manly to the wall over Super League. The Northern Eagles came about because the NRL promised $8 million if they merged which Manly went about using to pay off their debts leaving the Bears with nothing then promptly disbanded the joint venture and went their own way. North Sydney were naive but didn't deserve total destruction while Manly's cut-throat attitude may sit well with their fans but I don't have to like it. If the Sea Eagles folded tomorrow I'd applaud. PS: You can throw in Bob Fulton being the greatest pr!ck in rugby league as they cherry on top. If it's not his holier than thou attitude and his simultaneous rorting of the salary cap and NSW origin with selections like Jamie Buhrer (seriously?), Dylan Walker (please?), David Williams (now you're just taking the p!ss) and Jason King (softest front rower since 1908).

They do bargain very hard and some might say in an unsportsmanlike manner. For example they sacked their last coach who was a club legend when they hit a 2015 form slump. The coach had taken them to a grand final and two finals campaigns in previous seasons yet he was fired, their own fans were not happy about that but, it seemed like they wanted to take things in another direction. The coach before that won them a grand final and then asked several times for a pay rise, it was refused several times but, when a rival club offered him double Manly then came back and said they would equal the offer. Manly just always seem to have been ruthless business people even when it was just a sportsman's environment and they were very good at it. However in this day and age things have become far more business like, the ability to manipulate a favour from a mate at the top has become less and less and therefore Manly find themselves in the predicament that they are in today. That is a club used to winning but, without the edge that they once had and so on a level playing field with everyone trying to drive a hard bargain now who wants to do a favor with the club that's screwed you for the last 70 years.

Because they represent a rich area and are known for buying other team's players and grabbing stars from poorer clubs who can't match their salaries. But this has changed a bit since they brought in a cap.

I don't think anyone feels sorry for Manly fans. They have never got the spoon, they've won the premiership every complete decade since their conception, crowd numbers have declined for them since the 70's at their home ground, they have no 2nd (NSW cup) or 3rd division team (Ron Massey cup) and they even bus juniors in to play. What that says is that there really are not that many fans or people in that area who support Rugby League. If the districts most competitive local side is 4th grade (Sydney Shield) and their Leagues club has just merged with the local bowling club in order to survive then it tells us they have no money or community behind them to ensure that they survive. With the pending exit of Lottoland from Australia due to legislation changes the writing is on the wall for this franchise and the writting is move to the Central Coast or leave the NRL because there is no future for you where you are.

I don't think anyone feels sorry for Manly fans. They have never got the spoon, they've won the premiership every complete decade since their conception, crowd numbers have declined for them since the 70's at their home ground, they have no 2nd (NSW cup) or 3rd division team (Ron Massey cup) and they even bus juniors in to play. What that says is that there really are not that many fans or people in that area who support Rugby League. If the districts most competitive local side is 4th grade (Sydney Shield) and their Leagues club has just merged with the local bowling club in order to survive then it tells us they have no money or community behind them to ensure that they survive. With the pending exit of Lottoland from Australia due to legislation changes the writing is on the wall for this franchise and the writting is move to the Central Coast or leave the NRL because there is no future for you where you are..

Based in Europe and being new in the Australian sports scene...pls forgive the naive question...but can someone within a few words explain me why "everybody hates Manly" ??? It's an honest question, I'm not trying to trigger anyone. It seems to be an old thing as well which makes it even more interesting for me. Thanx lads!

And by the way they never plundered Newtown. That was Wests and Canterury.

Manly were not the first side to 'plunder'. Bear. St George had been doing it for years. Raper for example was a Newtown junior. Sure Manly went through a period in the 70s and 80s when they grabbed a lot of talent. Not the first team to do it. But Manly has been in the past two decades one of the least 'plunderers', a lot because since the Super League debacle, they have not been one of the richer clubs. For that look at the Roosters, Dogs, Eels,Bbronkos and Storm (through heavily backed TPAs). And lets not get into the Northern Eagles issue. Its been done to death. Norths were betrayed by the League, not Manly. They spent themselves out of the game with their Gosford venture and when Super Lague came about, they were denied a contract because they didnt have the money or juniors left to pass the new admins test. Manly was granted a contract but saw their finances stretched by Murdocks plundering of players for his SuperLague and the fact teams like Manly and Norths had to pay exorbitant pay outs to keep their players. Sent Manly almost to the wall and only days from closing down at one stage. They agreed to a joint venture (they didnt have to) because of the financial gain. But the two boards couldnt get on with each other so Manly went it alone. Blame the League mate, not Manly. And any issue between the clubs was just as much Norths fault as Manly's if you read the history

That's right but "Hard Yards" was trying to push some twaddle that their past success was based on "Manly has always been a club for guys with salt water in their hair and sand in their undies" which was clearly not the case because so many of their greats have come from other clubs. Newtown and Western Suburbs fans have a good reason for hating Manly when Arko and Fulton ripped the guts out of their teams in the early 80's while North Sydney supporters were well and truly bent over by the Sea Eagles thanks to the NRL more recently.