The problem with Israel Folau’s comments

Hannah Mouncey Columnist

By Hannah Mouncey, Hannah Mouncey is a Roar Expert

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    To truly understand the impact Israel Folau’s words have, you need to have lived through coming to terms with yourself and coming out in a sporting environment.

    I will always maintain that sport is the most accepting environment I have found, and the perception of male athletes, in particular, is by and large incorrect and unwarranted. But, occasionally, someone like Israel comes along, and we can see all too well why the stereotype we often associate with footballers developed.

    It does no one any good at all. Not the 99.9 per cent of fair-minded athletes and footballers out there, and certainly not the LGBT community or members of that community participating in sport.

    When I came to terms with who I was, and then tried to figure out how on earth I would come out, I was heavily ensconced in this exact environment. I was part of a national team, playing handball, a sport that requires huge amounts of aggression day in and day out.

    We toured together and lived out of each other’s pockets, and of course, this brought with it exactly what you would expect when close to 20 guys go away for a couple of weeks. All the swearing, homophobic, transphobic and often sexist jokes and comments you could imagine.

    I’m not pretending to be holier than thou, I was definitely a part of it because that’s just what you did, but the homophobic and transphobic comments certainly made it much more nerve-racking and difficult to come out than it otherwise would have. This would be the same with any team you can think of; it’s not confined to handball or our group of guys.

    But as much as I knew these were just comments made with absolutely no malice, by people who if you asked them certainly wouldn’t actually have any negative views towards the LGBT community, it made it bloody hard. I was terrified when I came out, not just because of that; coming out is a terrifying experience anyway, but it certainly didn’t make it easier.

    I have to say the support I received from everyone involved in handball, especially with those I played with, was absolutely phenomenal. But imagine being a closeted player at the Waratahs or Wallabies right now.

    If coming out wasn’t going to be incredibly difficult before, Izzy has now gone and made it almost impossible for any LGBT players to be who they are while playing there. How could you when your best player, someone who carries as much influence as he does, comes out posting the videos and making the comments he has in the past months?

    But from a purely sporting perspective, the impact this could have on the field and for recruiting is potentially huge as well.

    When I came out in 2015, I was in Qatar representing Australia and attempting to qualify for the Olympic Games. I was as close to useless as you could possibly be. Things had reached boiling point, I couldn’t concentrate on the court, I was getting into fights with teammates – all because I couldn’t be me.

    We were essentially a player short, and it’s not unreasonable to assume that anyone else in the same situation – possibly with the Waratahs or Wallabies – would have the same reaction. A team won’t work if a member feels as though they need to hide who they are just to keep the status quo and fit in.

    The other area it could affect is recruiting. Imagine for a second the Waratahs were in the market for a second rower or a centre and former Welsh captain Gareth Thomas was available. Do you really think, either prior to or after he came out as gay, that he would be signing with the Waratahs?

    Absolutely no chance, and as a result, you would have been missing out on one of the best players in the world, a Test captain. No team in a professional environment can afford to have their possible pool of players reduced because of issues such as this.

    It’s unfortunate because at the end of the day, when you take into account all of those scenarios, it’s the fans and members who ultimately lose out. If a player can’t play at their best because the environment they’re in doesn’t allow it, it affects the team’s performance.

    The same goes with missing out on a gun recruit; it’s going to impact on results, because not only do you not have a great player, you have to play against them.

    So while it may on the face of it seem as though Folau airing his views may seem like an issue around freedom of speech, in a professional or elite porting environment it can have a much, much more significant impact on not just the LGBT community, but the results on the field as well.

    Hannah Mouncey
    Hannah Mouncey

    Hannah Mouncey is an Australian rules footballer and, most notably, an international handball player, having represented Australia 22 times to date including at the 2013 World Championships. Hannah narrowly missed out on qualification for the 2016 Olympic Games with the men's national team, immediately after which she began the transition from male to female. In October 2017, Hannah?s nomination for the AFLW draft was rejected on the grounds of her transgender status just one day before the event took place, despite being tipped by football insiders to go as high as one of the top five picks in the draft.

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    The Crowd Says (367)

    • May 11th 2018 @ 5:32am
      mania said | May 11th 2018 @ 5:32am | ! Report

      me and my 5 yo
      5 YO “dad, why are people gay?”
      me “ok you know how you like jam and your brother likes peanut butter? same thing”
      5 yo accepts this and totters off to cause mayhem somewhere else.

      2 weeks later overhearing my 5 yo and neice
      watching some show with a room reveal thats a lot of pastel
      neice “thats gay”
      5 yo “theres nothing wrong with being gay”
      cue proud dad moment.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 7:34am
        Tissot Time said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:34am | ! Report

        Nice!

        Robert Louis Stevenson prayed for “ Courage, gaiety and the quiet mind”. I pray this prayer for Israel Folau and all impacted by his comments.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 3:25pm
          Mukhtar said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:25pm | ! Report

          This is the kind of prayer to promote!

          • May 11th 2018 @ 8:21pm
            WorldinUnion said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:21pm | ! Report

            Interesting article Hannah
            Perhaps you should write your next one about raising a daughter who tries her hardest only to have to tackle Brad Thorn in a dress or race against Caster Semenya with braces.
            Anyone who ‘wants to be a surgeon’ doesn’t mean they should be allowed to operate on people, and especially not when they are a danger to others.
            I think Israel Folau is less dangerous to other girls than “Men playing dress up” on a rugby field

      • May 11th 2018 @ 8:28am
        RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:28am | ! Report

        Good stuff mania great parenting!

        I’ll use that!

        We also have to prepare our children by developing resilience as they grow up. That way if they do come out they have coping strategies to deal with it , including the knowledge that some people will believe it wrong, and that these people are only saying what they think is right ie many religious people.

        We can all do exist if we prepare the next generation.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 8:39am
          RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:39am | ! Report

          Co exist

          Darn auto correct

        • May 11th 2018 @ 9:08am
          KenW said | May 11th 2018 @ 9:08am | ! Report

          I agree on the resilience point – that’s the good thing about the widespread condemnation of Folau’s comments. Kids growing up seeing this happen realise that they are not alone, they don’t have to store the pain away quietly like good closeted queers of yesteryear – clearly not a good coping mechanism considering the outcomes on that community.

          Whether or not they are personally affected, I try to give my children the ability to identify when the emperor doesn’t have any clothes on and the confidence to point it out. That’s the best strategy for resilience.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 9:36am
            RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 9:36am | ! Report

            Yes

            It is important that all views are shared regardless if they’re popular or not.

            Folau has shared his view as respectfully as one could expect. Perhaps the initial response could’ve been more delicate but really there’s norhing wrong with that particular word. It’s theology after all.

            • May 11th 2018 @ 10:36am
              mania said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:36am | ! Report

              very good points. folau’s words are giving us good lessons. theres always something to learn and teach.
              resilience acceptance inclusion

              • May 11th 2018 @ 1:55pm
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:55pm | ! Report

                Yes but be careful about the condoning of vitriolic angered responses to the religious debate because christians are equally entitled to feel secure within the community, particularly those that are preaching with good intentions, as Folau is doing.

              • May 13th 2018 @ 3:47am
                Joe said | May 13th 2018 @ 3:47am | ! Report

                Frankly I’m sick and tired of all the bleating.
                Izzy stated his view and as far as I’m concerned he’s entitled to say what he likes.
                He hasn’t poked anyone in the eyes or taken anyone out in the air.
                Nothing against gays but this is becoming far too pervasive for my liking. Live and let live on both sides.

            • May 12th 2018 @ 6:45am
              Ruckin Oaf said | May 12th 2018 @ 6:45am | ! Report

              “It is important that all views are shared regardless if they’re popular or not/”

              Why?

              • May 12th 2018 @ 10:25am
                Tom G said | May 12th 2018 @ 10:25am | ! Report

                I think what people who defend the indefensible always say is that everyone has a right to an opinion no matter how odious… until of course it is something they don’t want to hear that is.

              • May 12th 2018 @ 7:51pm
                Jaf said | May 12th 2018 @ 7:51pm | ! Report

                Really? Because popular opinions are not always the truth.

              • May 13th 2018 @ 7:15am
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 13th 2018 @ 7:15am | ! Report

                Hey Jaf,

                Yeah and ?

      • May 11th 2018 @ 8:48am
        Jacko said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:48am | ! Report

        Which 1 is gay? The peanut butter person or the Jam person? Where does the vegemite guy come into this? Did IF tweet about this on twitter? What if I love peanut butter/jam sandwhiches?did we vote for PB or Jam?… I dont know…i get so confused……

        • Roar Guru

          May 11th 2018 @ 10:27am
          stillmissit said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:27am | ! Report

          Excellent post RTT but I suspect the subtlety of it will be lost on those who see these issues in Black and White..

          • May 11th 2018 @ 10:54am
            RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:54am | ! Report

            Cheers

          • May 11th 2018 @ 11:00am
            KenW said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:00am | ! Report

            ‘Off-spin isn’t natural, I KNOW that people who bowl that way will be tortured for eternity’ – says your kids hero.

            Some of the other kids in the team scoff at your son, make everyone debate and vote whether he should be excluded from team activities because, as an off-spinner, he’s not really a cricketer. Enough people vote for him that he’s allowed to participate with the rest of the team but those agitating against him continue to talk badly about him.What if his hero is right and an eternity of torture is coming to him unless he changes back to fast bowling?

            I hope you’ve taught him good coping mechanisms.

            • May 11th 2018 @ 11:10am
              RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:10am | ! Report

              First of all in this hypothetical that would be so ridiculous that you would just shrug it off as the nonsense that it is. No different to what Folau is saying really.

              I would also ensure that he is not on Twitter to hear any such nonsense but in case. I would continue to explain that such belief is all nonsense.

              The part about his peers is not the responsibility of said celebrity.

              But in this hypothetical, said celebrity has said that he needs to change back to a fast bowler, not that he is simply going to the bad place. Said celebrity is also saying that leg spinners need to change their ways as well. Not just off spinners. Just to be fair.

              To which I will have ensured he has the resilience to deal with such discussion and stay true to himself because at the end of the day it is only those closest to him that really matter. Most importantly himself. He knows that

          • May 11th 2018 @ 1:22pm
            Taylorman said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:22pm | ! Report

            Really? This is supposed to be a comparison to someone ‘deciding’ to be gay?

            That being a minority is ok?

            That its a choice?

            Anyway, Folau certainly thinks its a ‘bad’ ‘choice’ both as equally incorrect. So bad he has a place for them.

            RTT what if Dennis Lillee had said all offspinners were going to hell?

            How would that have affected your sons ‘choice’ assuming he had one, the day before asking you?

            • Roar Guru

              May 11th 2018 @ 1:45pm
              JamesH said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:45pm | ! Report

              “Really? This is supposed to be a comparison to someone ‘deciding’ to be gay?”

              I know, right? I thought RTT was having a lend when I started reading his analogy. I don’t understand how anyone can think this is a remotely sensible comparison. Not only is there choice involved in being an offspinner, but offspinners aren’t burdened by the weight of centuries of social (and legal) discrimination and stereotyping based on a fundamental aspect of who they are.

              This is just not in the same ballpark, and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the subject matter. Absolute crock.

            • May 11th 2018 @ 1:57pm
              RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:57pm | ! Report

              to be fair I don’t think anyone would ‘choose’ to be an off spinner

              🙂

            • May 11th 2018 @ 1:58pm
              Taylorman said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:58pm | ! Report

              umm…what he said…

              Actually the only problem I have with Folau’s words is…

              …that he said them.

            • Roar Rookie

              May 11th 2018 @ 2:15pm
              piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:15pm | ! Report

              to be fair I don’t think anyone would ‘choose’ to be an off spinner

              Just as no one chooses to be gay

              you really jumped the shark on this one

              • May 11th 2018 @ 2:34pm
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:34pm | ! Report

                No no piru

                Try and stick with me

                That’s exactly the point I was making

            • Roar Rookie

              May 11th 2018 @ 2:45pm
              piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:45pm | ! Report

              I’m sticking with you

              your analogy is off the mark and actually pretty insulting to gays and offspinners

              • May 11th 2018 @ 2:48pm
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:48pm | ! Report

                I wouldn’t want to offend any off spinners out there 🙂

        • May 11th 2018 @ 10:46am
          mania said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:46am | ! Report

          excellent relevant analogy RTT.
          but had a celebrity disparaged off spinners; your sons resilence would be tested and he would hopefully come to realise that that celebrity only had a very narrow view of the whole.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 11:17am
            RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:17am | ! Report

            Yes it wouldn’t matter.

            He’d still appreciate his hero for the achievements he looks up to him for.

            He doesn’t look up to him for his beliefs on cricket. Folau doesn’t have a large enough knowledge on cricket, and is just tweeting his beliefs which is his right. We feel compassion for him because we know he only thinks that way because of the environment he was brought up in. So we just ignore what he says on the subject of cricket.

            My son looks up to Folaus deeds and efforts on just the rugbyfield.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 11:43am
          moaman said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:43am | ! Report

          RTT in my religion offspin bowlers are doomed to hellfire and damnation…..leggies are ok though.

          ps.I guess I should have read further and seen KenW’s post!

          • May 11th 2018 @ 1:23pm
            RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:23pm | ! Report

            Yes deep down I was gutted but I did not let my son see that!

        • May 11th 2018 @ 1:57pm
          Ex force fan said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:57pm | ! Report

          Where your off-spinner analogy unfortunately give the impression that the players choose to bowl off spin as they are good at it – you do not have a choice to be attracted to men or woman or both. What complicates the matter is that it is not black and white but there are different shades of grey in in between.

          I have studies the verses in the Bible in detail that seems to condemn gay people but if you go back to the Greek and Hebrew, understand the context of the time and how it would have been interpreted and translated. These verses could be interpreted differently (and in some cases was totally misinterpreted) and there were additional context provided that is not in the Bible. For example where does Gen 2:1 say that God instituted marriage. Also remember there were no word in Hebrew or Greek for homosexuality as we understand it today.

          Issy is not on solid Biblical grounds as it may appear on the surface. Here is a link to a good book to read about this topic for those interested:
          https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Bible-Homosexuality-Revised-Expanded/dp/066423397X

          • May 11th 2018 @ 2:35pm
            RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:35pm | ! Report

            Come on no one would ‘choose’ to be an off spinner 🙂

            • May 11th 2018 @ 2:51pm
              bigbaz said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:51pm | ! Report

              what about the people who spin it both ways

              • May 11th 2018 @ 2:57pm
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:57pm | ! Report

                Lol genuinely!!! 🙂

        • May 11th 2018 @ 3:27pm
          Mukhtar said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:27pm | ! Report

          That’s a conversation for children entering puberty!

        • May 12th 2018 @ 6:46am
          Ruckin Oaf said | May 12th 2018 @ 6:46am | ! Report

          Hmmm the Kinsey Scale with condiments I guess it could work 🙂

      • May 11th 2018 @ 5:25pm
        Masher said | May 11th 2018 @ 5:25pm | ! Report

        Top parenting right there mate. Kudos to you and the rest of the family (parenting is a shared job)

        This is probably the best article written about Folau so far in my opinion – not humble cos I don’t do that – and really the first one that addresses the issue properly. I spent 23 years in the NZ Army and had both guys and girls come out. All of them needed different levels of support but all of the could continue to contribute with the support of their friends. Well written and well done you

    • May 11th 2018 @ 5:47am
      Rhys Bosley said | May 11th 2018 @ 5:47am | ! Report

      An excellent article which highlights the issue with these comments for LGBT people. In recent years I have thought about growing up as a teenager at a time when constant jokes about homosexuality were the norm in my peer group, and how hard that must have made it for those who were secretly gay. We know better now, which is what makes Folau’s behaviour pretty inconsiderate. I hope he reads it and has a bit of a think about his actions.

      The flip side of the coin though is that none of this would have happened, had Rugby Australia not taken a side in the same sex marriage debate. It was because Folau and presumably many others didn’t want to be spoken for on a divisive issue, that led to the exchange on instagram and all that followed. That is not excusing Folau for carrying this on, but the fact is that it is what started it.

      I think that it is a salutary lesson on why Rugby Australia needs to be a smarter on the way they promote inclusion. It is entirely correct that they should welcome everyone irrespective of their sexuality and make it clear that disrespectful behaviour towards LGBT people is not tolerated. The way the homophobic slurs by Jacques Potgieter were dealt with are a good example of that.

      However, jumping into the middle of a political debate where their own stakeholders were deeply divided was dumb. RA really should just stick to its core business of running rugby in this country instead of trying to be a social lobbying organisation, because the two objectives don’t mix.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 9:15am
        aRad said | May 11th 2018 @ 9:15am | ! Report

        This all could have been avoided if the Federal Government had done its job and legislated with a minimum of fuss for same sex marriage. Instead, they drew everyone into a divisive and unnecessary debate that dragged on for months, inviting everyone to take sides, including, as you mentioned, RA.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 4:49pm
          elvis said | May 11th 2018 @ 4:49pm | ! Report

          Would the issue have been put to bed if the government had simply legislated? Or would it have dragged on for years and years instead of months as people who thought their voices had been silenced kept it going as an issue?
          A vote showed the whole of Australia where everyone stood and allowed the people to move on.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 6:14pm
          Rhys Bosley said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:14pm | ! Report

          Without wanting to rehash whether or boy the plebiscite was the right option for the Government, RA clearly did have a choice as to whether or not to involve themselves. We are seeing the consequences of that decision now.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 8:32pm
          Neil said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:32pm | ! Report

          Yes you’re right. Governments secretly deciding and then implementing what they think is right, without consultation, is the way forward.

      • Roar Guru

        May 11th 2018 @ 4:01pm
        Ralph said | May 11th 2018 @ 4:01pm | ! Report

        Nicely put Rhys, inclusion doesn’t take sides.

    • Roar Guru

      May 11th 2018 @ 6:06am
      Timbo (L) said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:06am | ! Report

      Great first hand account. Thanks for sharing your story and opinion on the impact of the words.
      A lot of the debate has been around the right to say them and your article helps to re-focus on what is important.

    • May 11th 2018 @ 6:09am
      Hugo said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:09am | ! Report

      Excellent post, Hannah. There’s another problem with Folau’s comments – he implies that God hates gays. That qualifies as hate speech, and hate speech does not come under the umbrella of free speech. And you’re dead right about his attitude affecting his teammates. Just after his disgraceful screed the Tahs lost their next game in which they didn’t score a single point. That wasn’t a coincidence.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 6:38am
        Redsfan1 said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:38am | ! Report

        Only in your twisted viewpoint Hugo, fortunately not in the view of the law.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 6:54am
        Karma Miranda said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:54am | ! Report

        Wow… Folau says God hates gays. That’s not my interpretation of what he said, but OK lets go with that.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 9:44am
          KenW said | May 11th 2018 @ 9:44am | ! Report

          Well, according to Folau he’s giving them up for eternal torture – burning forever in pits of flames with ‘Achy Breaky Heart’ and a Pauly Shore movie constantly on repeat or something.

          I don’t think it’s unreasonable to characterise that as hate. He’s not exactly showering them with affection.

          • Roar Pro

            May 11th 2018 @ 10:12am
            Andy Thompson said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:12am | ! Report

            Which Pauly Shore movie? Asking for a friend.

            • Roar Rookie

              May 11th 2018 @ 11:41am
              piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:41am | ! Report

              Jury Duty

            • Roar Guru

              May 11th 2018 @ 12:36pm
              rebel said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:36pm | ! Report

              Any Pauly Shore movie would do the trick I would suggest.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 12:47pm
                piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:47pm | ! Report

                Encino Man was alright

              • May 11th 2018 @ 1:24pm
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:24pm | ! Report

                Oh….. my……. gosh!

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 1:38pm
                rebel said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:38pm | ! Report

                Although not really Oscar worthy, I agree Piru, just injecting some humour into a subject that continues to go around in circles.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 10:35am
            Jacko said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:35am | ! Report

            Ken you have just proved that you have no idea at all about what he said, but have just interpreted it any way you want to just so you can blame someone else for your thoughts and facts mean nothing to you….you just MUST be offended so you read stuff all wrong to achieve your wants

          • May 11th 2018 @ 10:41am
            RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:41am | ! Report

            He’s trying to get them to repent to avoid that.

            In his mind he’s helping.

            The intent needs to be factored in

            • May 12th 2018 @ 6:50am
              Ruckin Oaf said | May 12th 2018 @ 6:50am | ! Report

              Yeah like when a large heavily muscled gentleman from a local motorcycle club advises the small business owner as to a range of payments and services that can prevent a business catching on fire.

              He’s just trying to help.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 7:11am
        Karma Miranda said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:11am | ! Report

        Pretty sure Folau neither actually stated or implied that God hates Gays at any point Hugo. Conversely though… congratulations on the Religious Vilification you’ve just commited!

        • May 11th 2018 @ 7:20am
          Aussikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:20am | ! Report

          No, only that being gay is sinful, and immoral and if a gay person doesn’t repent they will deservedly go to hell. Even if the person is otherwise as saintly as Mother Theresa. Congratulations on the Jesuitical reasoning though.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 7:36am
            Karma Miranda said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:36am | ! Report

            Yes, under Folau’s interpretation, being Gay is sinful. Just like snorting Cocaine is probably sinful, but I don’t think he hates Carmichael Hunt though.

            Congratulations on completely missing the point

            • May 11th 2018 @ 9:09am
              Aussikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 9:09am | ! Report

              Thanks, I understood what you were saying perfectly, it is the same disingenuous garbage that has been peddled ad nauseum by the ‘tolerate intolerance’ brigade since Folau made his first homophobic post.

              The fact that you equate being gay with a snorting cocaine. speaks volumes. Only one is a choice (for most).

              Congratulations on your new identity. though.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 10:38am
                Jacko said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:38am | ! Report

                So according to your genius which 1 is the choice?

              • May 11th 2018 @ 11:28am
                Aussikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:28am | ! Report

                If you don’t know, Jacko, you are wilfully ignorant. Google it, but make sure you look at the science, not the religious propaganda.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 11:38am
                Jacko said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:38am | ! Report

                So you say being Gay is genetic but being an adict is a choice? Pure ignorance on your part im sorry for you..Also which science shall i look up……The 1 that recommended my mum smoke as a weightloss solutuin? the 1 that said the world was flat? the 1 that says we should get all fats from our diets? the 1 that said take fish oil yet is now changing its mind? The science that says humans are causing global warming or the 1 that says its nothing to do with humans……Which 1 ??? I think it is you who are being deliberately willfully ignorant

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 12:50pm
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:50pm | ! Report

                it clearly can’t be DNA otherwise identical twins would all have the same sexual orientation.

                That doesn’t rule out other possible genetic causes like proteins or whatever or there is the possibility that nuture also plays a significant part as well.

                Not that it matters to me since I don’t care who does what to whom if the parties are consensual.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 1:08pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:08pm | ! Report

                To Jacko: no one mentioned addiction. Shows how weak your actual argument is that you make that leap. If snorting cocaine meant one was an addict half the lawyers in Sydney would be addicts. They are not, they choose a bit of recreational Charlie.

                If you seriously suggest that the science which says sexual preference is mostly predetermined is wrong, well you are an ultracrepidarian.

                This is exactly why some gay young Christians subject themselves to so called conversion therapy. Because their religion tells them their natural orientation is sinful.

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 1:51pm
                JamesH said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:51pm | ! Report

                @Jacko who said it’s genetic? A person’s sexuality is complicated as hell (no pun intended). The only thing you can be sure of is that it’s not a choice.

                I can’t believe you actually need to be told this in 2018.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 2:23pm
                SP said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:23pm | ! Report

                Don’t you ever think it is strange Jacko, that you are using the internet in the 1950’s?

              • May 11th 2018 @ 3:23pm
                Jacko said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:23pm | ! Report

                james clearly it is not a choice…But neither is adiction which was my point….
                SP WHAT?????its 2018 but if you are referring to the science comments then it is a great example of how science has been wrong massively in the past and in 20 years time what will science be saying then that they totally disagree with now….Surely you can comprehend that point…Afterall everyone gets an education in this day and age

              • May 11th 2018 @ 7:56pm
                James Mampara said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:56pm | ! Report

                Sexual preference is absolutely a choice. How else can you account for incest? You cannot logically chop and change support for sex acts according to your whims.

              • May 12th 2018 @ 8:01am
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 12th 2018 @ 8:01am | ! Report

                Hey James,

                It’s a choice ? Really I find that position difficult to comprehend as I’m just not sexually attracted to guys.

                I can’t imagine choosing to have sex with a man.

                I take it from your position though that you are able to look at either an attractive man or woman and are equally sexually attracted to both.

                Can you tell us how you make your choice and does that change at all ?

              • Roar Guru

                May 12th 2018 @ 9:31am
                Mark Richmond said | May 12th 2018 @ 9:31am | ! Report

                Not necessarily PeterK there have been numerous studies that have shown identical twins do not always have identical DNA.

              • Roar Guru

                May 12th 2018 @ 11:25am
                PeterK said | May 12th 2018 @ 11:25am | ! Report

                mark – in the studies on this the identical twins do have identical dna.

                If it was down to just DNA then 100% of these DNA identical twins would have the same sexual orientation which they don’t.

                It could be like fingerprints, identical twins have the same dna but different fingerprints due to environmental conditions in the womb , or it could be post birth exposure to certain environmental conditions.

                Or it could be proteins which effect which genes turn on or off or something else.

              • Roar Guru

                May 12th 2018 @ 3:04pm
                Mark Richmond said | May 12th 2018 @ 3:04pm | ! Report

                Sorry PeterK, their DNA is not necessarily identical…. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/health/11real.html

              • May 12th 2018 @ 8:24pm
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 12th 2018 @ 8:24pm | ! Report

                My limited understanding is that the DNA we are born with isn’t necessarily the DNA that we’ll die with

            • May 13th 2018 @ 4:10pm
              Dan said | May 13th 2018 @ 4:10pm | ! Report

              Didn’t realise there was a bible verse on snorting cocaine… but back to your central premise, Folau may not personally harbour any ill will nor even believe god hates gays himself, but it is instructive that homosexuality is the sin he’s most obsessed with given all the other sins mentioned in the bible. There’s one passage on homosexuality and a whole lot more on things like breaking the sabbath, and yet Folau is completely obsessed with this one issues.

              That tells me that this he personally has serious issues on this that may be subconscious, but are certainly less charitable than he likes to claim

        • May 11th 2018 @ 7:20am
          i miss the force said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:20am | ! Report

          purchase dictionary and look up vilification

          • May 11th 2018 @ 7:32am
            Karma Miranda said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:32am | ! Report

            Vilification

            noun: “Abusively disparaging speech or writing.:

            Falsely attributing Hate speech due to a person’s Religious conviction… what do you call it?

            • May 11th 2018 @ 7:57am
              I miss the force said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:57am | ! Report

              You need to learn more about mother Theresa

              Can I borrow your long bow?

            • May 11th 2018 @ 7:58am
              I miss the force said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:58am | ! Report

              You need to learn more about mother Theresa

              Can I borrow your long bow?

              • May 11th 2018 @ 8:08am
                Aussikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:08am | ! Report

                Are you saying she wasn’t saintly? You may be right but it doesn’t affect the point. Folau (and his god) are saying that being gay, or loving someone of the same sex, is so immoral that even if you are otherwise perfect, you will be going to hell unless you repent. Not hateful or problematic at all……..

              • May 11th 2018 @ 8:41am
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:41am | ! Report

                Again

                What rock has everyone been living under if they didn’t realise this was what is in the bible?

                You are free to not believe it.

                So what’s the problem?

              • May 11th 2018 @ 10:49am
                KenW said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:49am | ! Report

                RTT – I think you’re arguing a point of view all out on your own. I don’t see anyone in this thread, or any of the previous ones, expressing surprise at what the bible says.

                It’s been critically dissected many times over the centuries, the arguments about contradictions, historical inaccuracies, lineages to older mythology, terrible moral examples, etc are all recorded and noted by anyone with the interest to look.

                The surprise is that a 21st century man – and crucially one who has always been considered a good egg – would be driven to so casually slander sections of the community based on these old books. It’s an eye-opener to most of our society for whom these books long ago passed into symbolism (or meaningless for an ever-growing section).

              • May 11th 2018 @ 10:57am
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:57am | ! Report

                Again you are living in a self imposed bubble

                84% of the world has faith in one of these old books of meaningless symbolism.

                Most of which would share in many capacities Folau’s beliefs

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 2:38pm
                GC Red said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:38pm | ! Report

                I really don’t think he was intending to slander.
                There will never be a world where people aren’t offended by something. We live in a fairly tolerant and fair country in comparison to some.
                We celebrate people’s differences, allow them to speak their minds and on occasion people will get upset.
                I think we all need to spend more time trying to improve ourselves a little and spend less time on the torch and pitchforks rubbish.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 12:25pm
                ChrisG said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:25pm | ! Report

                RTT – 84%? What bubble are you living in?

              • May 11th 2018 @ 1:25pm
                RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:25pm | ! Report

                Google it

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 4:33pm
                ChrisG said | May 11th 2018 @ 4:33pm | ! Report

                I did. You obviously have as much trouble understanding statistics as you do with people’s points of view in this debate.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 6:06pm
                Two shades said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:06pm | ! Report

                Chris G..seriously do what everyone else is doing and don’t reply to RTT…to be honest, he just wants the conflict, not the debate!

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 7:30pm
                ChrisG said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:30pm | ! Report

                Thanks TS for the advice. I couldn’t let blatant nonsense go without a comment. I’ve made my point.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 7:50pm
                James Mampara said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:50pm | ! Report

                Actually, many people feel the same way as RTT. 84% of the world’s population in fact. It’s pretty straightforward.

              • May 12th 2018 @ 11:27am
                Knob Head said | May 12th 2018 @ 11:27am | ! Report

                That doesn’t cut it here mate! Show me a link where it’s 84%?

                That’s right you can’t because there is no such statistic showing faith of 84% of the population for these “religious books of symbolism”.

        • Roar Guru

          May 11th 2018 @ 10:41am
          stillmissit said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:41am | ! Report

          Why don’t we just go the other way and state that we hate everyone and every tribe in the world. At least that would satisfy some peoples love affair with equality.

          Strange that many who jump up and down about equality are, at the same time, jumping up and down about being unique individuals. I wonder what equality is to these people?

          • Roar Rookie

            May 11th 2018 @ 11:06am
            piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:06am | ! Report

            Seems the only solution

          • May 11th 2018 @ 12:12pm
            Dubaikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:12pm | ! Report

            Equality is, your free to believe and say anything as long as it conforms to what i believe.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 10:28am
        In Brief said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:28am | ! Report

        God believes gays are sinners (if you trust the Bible). Is that hate? I thought Jesus loved all sinners.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 2:05pm
          Ex force fan said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:05pm | ! Report

          The Bible states that everyone sins (regardless of sexual orientation) and is far from God – Rom 2.

          Does the Bible state that being a homosexual or even that homosexual acts are sinful. Not really, however it has been interpreted that why when the Bible was translated and only since the King James version in the 1605. There is not even a word for homosexuality in the Biblical Hebrew or Greek.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 3:41pm
            RTT said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:41pm | ! Report

            Sorry mate but it does definitely say specifically that it is against gods laws in the bible.

            It talks about a man laying with another man

            It’s all myth mind you but it is in there and so someone exercising their religious freedom is entitled to believe it is a sin

            • May 12th 2018 @ 12:54am
              Fathom said | May 12th 2018 @ 12:54am | ! Report

              ‘..man laying another man…in school we were told that only animals engaged in gay sex.

        • May 13th 2018 @ 4:16pm
          Dan said | May 13th 2018 @ 4:16pm | ! Report

          Kinda funny when you tear faith apart with the mindset of an engineer and ask how all this is supposed to function logically. God is all powerful and all knowing, yet he creates his most intelligent life form in his image, and creates them as basically born sinners that he demands redemption from, despite by definition not really having granted them free will to make those choices in the first places (seeing as free will is incompatible with an omniscient and omnipotent prime mover). Kinda makes god sound like a bit of a Donald Trump like character…

      • May 11th 2018 @ 11:27am
        double agent said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:27am | ! Report

        Hugo wait,what?

    • May 11th 2018 @ 6:36am
      Redsfan1 said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:36am | ! Report

      I’m not sure why the Roar is obsessed with this topic. I really don’t care what some random AFLW player thinks about a rugby player.

      I certainly think most people are smart enough to make up their own minds without being told what to think 24/7.

      Can we please have more articles about the sport- you remember rugby? Save this for Twitter or other perpetualy outraged forms of social media.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 6:53am
        Don said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:53am | ! Report

        The Roar has published four non-Folau rugby stories in the last 24 hours alone. You could always try not reading the articles that don’t interest you. If Israel is allowed to use his status as a rugby star to preach his religion I think other people have a right to comment on that.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 12:11pm
          Redsfan1 said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:11pm | ! Report

          Or you could try talking about rugby on a rugby fan site Don. Strange as it seems.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 1:06pm
            Don said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:06pm | ! Report

            As I’ve pointed out, there are several rugby articles posted here every day. The Roar is doing as you suggest. The idea that nothing a rugby player does off the field should be reported is absurd.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 7:21am
        i miss the force said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:21am | ! Report

        it engages people and mak3s you uncomfortable and to describe Hannah as a random AFLW player is disingenuous or shows you didnt even read the article. there is nothing in the article telling me what to think

        • May 11th 2018 @ 8:00pm
          James Mampara said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:00pm | ! Report

          Doping in sport is disingenuous, trying to gain an unfair advantage.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 7:47am
        Christo the Daddyo said | May 11th 2018 @ 7:47am | ! Report

        If you come on and comment, it shows you’re interested in that topic. You do realise how a site like this works don’t you?

      • Roar Rookie

        May 11th 2018 @ 8:13am
        Playerfromwaybk said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:13am | ! Report

        If people are going to judge Folau, judge him on his actions, not his words. “If coming out wasn’t going to be incredibly difficult before, Izzy has now gone and made it almost impossible for any LGBT players to be who they are while playing there.” Sorry Hannah, I have to disagree with you there, any person from the LGBT community would be totally safe and treated respectfully in his presence, he is a good person who is very generous and people seem to love being around him. His religious views will not signal the impending doom of the LGBT community. I am no Folau fanboy, what he said on social media was just dumb, he should keep his religious beliefs to himself. But it is time to move on and stop recycling this topic, lets get back to talking about rugby.

        • Roar Guru

          May 11th 2018 @ 9:11am
          PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 9:11am | ! Report

          actions, what people actually do counting more than words?

          Nah thats too old school, why look at how people actually behave around others, how loving or welcoming they are, or specifically in folau’s case doing a lot of work to end all discrimination in sport.

          What is more important is for people to be able to outraged on social media.

          • Roar Rookie

            May 11th 2018 @ 10:39am
            piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:39am | ! Report

            His words are actions

            Or do you guys imagine they appeared on Twitter all by themselves?

            • Roar Guru

              May 11th 2018 @ 10:46am
              PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:46am | ! Report

              but people are not getting upset that he used twitter what words he used

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 11:07am
                piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:07am | ! Report

                disagree, if he’d said it to his mates no one would have cared – it’s the fact he broadcast them to the world that’s the issue

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 11:37am
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:37am | ! Report

                sure but still people are rating or judging words as more important than judging him by the actions he has taken.

                just the culture of faux outrage we live in.

                If he had said it to his mates and that was recorded and released the outrage against folau would still have occurred.

                Not only are good actions overlooked but it seems illegal predatory actions like in the NRL or AFL get less outrage and media coverage than a religious person tweeting a sermon with disagreeable words about gays.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 11:52am
                piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:52am | ! Report

                Yep, but only because people are trying to frame this as a religion vs the world or freedom of speech vs censorship issue.

                Very little of the debate has been about his actual words OR actions

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 12:00pm
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:00pm | ! Report

                piru – clearly not true when so many posts are about homophobia, and him hating gays, about wanting gays to go to hell , about how much his words hurt vulnerable gay men.

                The outrage about words said easily exceeds one against illegal actions that have very demonstrably physically hurt people.

                It shows the imbalance when those perpetrators have received far less opprobrium and vilification than folau.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 12:06pm
                piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:06pm | ! Report

                piru – clearly not true when so many posts are about homophobia, and him hating gays, about wanting gays to go to hell , about how much his words hurt vulnerable gay men.

                Exactly my point, where did he say any of that?

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 12:54pm
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:54pm | ! Report

                they are the mostly incorrect interpretations of what he said.

                The point remains furor is higher about (misunderstood/misreported/misinterpreted) words than actual nefarious deeds by people.

                The priorities are clearly wrong.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 2:52pm
                Taylorman said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:52pm | ! Report

                Peterk you continue to marginalise Folaus actions when he is not looking for that. If anything he has reaffirmed his actions.

                Where you think you can sum it up as simply as… Folau said these words X , and everyone else is saying far far worse words Y.

                It doesnt work like that. This isnt a about a simple compare.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 1:04pm
                piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:04pm | ! Report

                I feel like we’re saying the same thing

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 3:40pm
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:40pm | ! Report

                taylorman – no.

                I am saying folau used words and the media, social media outrage is way ott, compared to actual actions of sexual assault and so forth in afl and nrl.

                I am saying actions like those are far worse yet get a lot less attention, the wrong priorites by far too many.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 10:41am
            Paul said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:41am | ! Report

            Isn’t tweeting out that video an ‘action’?

          • Roar Rookie

            May 11th 2018 @ 12:30pm
            ChrisG said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:30pm | ! Report

            … in folau’s case doing a lot of work to end all discrimination in sport

            How’s that working out for him?

            • Roar Rookie

              May 11th 2018 @ 12:49pm
              piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 12:49pm | ! Report

              I think he meant ‘undoing’

            • Roar Guru

              May 11th 2018 @ 3:41pm
              PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:41pm | ! Report

              no that was what was said about him and his work on the bingham cup

          • Roar Guru

            May 11th 2018 @ 4:04pm
            Ralph said | May 11th 2018 @ 4:04pm | ! Report

            What is more important is for people to be able to outraged on social media

            LOL, if only I could get paid for it.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 11:10pm
            Utah said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:10pm | ! Report

            PeterK, is this really your take on this?

            Mate.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 8:35pm
          Neil said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:35pm | ! Report

          You do realise that you have just espoused and stated your own set of beliefs? Hypocrisy much?

          • May 12th 2018 @ 11:32am
            Knob Head said | May 12th 2018 @ 11:32am | ! Report

            I don’t think he has any idea How hypocritical he is being Neil…arrogance and the disease “always being right
            No matter what” does that to people!

      • May 11th 2018 @ 10:44am
        ethan said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:44am | ! Report

        The Roar and all media will take any chance they can to promoted LGBT and deny God. The Roar contacts a professional athlete to write an article so they can further push this stance. Noticeably, they are not contacting any of the many religious folk out there. In this way they control the population, and what they think. It is agenda pushing.

        The solution is just to avoid the media, turn it off. Or if you choose to accept some of it in your life (as I do), you can at least do so in a clear minded way that doesn’t allow you to be manipulated, or flustered, by it.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 3:50pm
          Big Dog said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:50pm | ! Report

          What. Utter. Rubbish.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 4:58pm
            elvis said | May 11th 2018 @ 4:58pm | ! Report

            I think he is correct. I have never been been offended or bored or whatever by a single christian preacher because I have chosen from a young age to avoid them or turn them off. No jehos at the door, a polite no thank you. No being bailed up in the mall, another polite no thank you. I couldn’t imagine anything more mind numbing than Folau’s (or anyone else’s) twitter feed. You have the ability to not read or watch things that are offensive.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 11:29am
        double agent said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:29am | ! Report

        Redfan I couldn’t agree with you more.

    • May 11th 2018 @ 6:47am
      Drongo said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:47am | ! Report

      The fact is that there are a lot of fundamental and not so fundamental religious believers who share the view that homosexuality is against their God’s rules as stated in their holy books. When they cite those words it has the potential to upset gay people.
      So what is the answer? Silence them? No, not in a free society. That is never the answer. The answer is for those who oppose those views to respectfully state their opinion and to offer their support. And the Folou’s must, in return respectfully accept that expression of support and not try to silence that.
      When one group manages to silence another what do we get? An ISIS type ‘society’ to use that term loosely.
      60% of the country recently indicated their support. 40% were opposed. Each side must respect the other. That produces a healthy society.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 8:00am
        I miss the force said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:00am | ! Report

        Isis- to use the term loosely?

        Get real

      • Roar Rookie

        May 11th 2018 @ 8:46am
        Don said | May 11th 2018 @ 8:46am | ! Report

        Almost 40% of the participants in a plebiscite on same sex marriage were opposed to the idea.
        That issue has ZERO relevance to the one being discussed.
        A large number of religious leaders spoke in support of the LGBT community but we’re opposed to legislation allowing same sex marriage.

        The Pope himself has said “when a person arrives before Jesus, Jesus certainly will NOT say “go away because you are homosexual”…

        And the 38% NO vote in the SSM plebiscite doesn’t equate to 40% of the country.
        Only 80% of eligible voters participated.
        Total NO votes was 4.873M
        The Population of Australia is 24M

        So, how does any fair minded person figure that 40% of the population would be supporting Folau’s views?

        • May 11th 2018 @ 10:45am
          Jacko said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:45am | ! Report

          But But But BUT if the 40% doesnt equate to the population then SURELY the 60% doesnt either??????

        • Roar Guru

          May 11th 2018 @ 11:23am
          Timbo (L) said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:23am | ! Report

          1. The Yes vote won by 20% – That’s 50% more than the No Vote. That is a big margin.
          2. Statistically the pro-con ratio’s can be inferred on the remaining adult population that didn’t vote.
          3. SSM has been legislated, so the 40% are officially now on the wrong side of the debate.

          If the Greens media campaign is anything to go by, they were worried that there would be a higher voter turnout from NO voters. So if their polling data is accurate, the supporters for SSM could be higher, not lower.

          On face value, 50% more people disagree with Folau’s views on SSM than agree with them.

          It is hard to infer how that translates to advocating for a minority group to go to hell. as Don suggests, I am betting that that is a much, much lower number.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 11:43am
            Jacko said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:43am | ! Report

            Sorry but that would be 50% of the 60% in favour from the 40% of the population that voted would it? meaning only 8% difference in results?

            • Roar Rookie

              May 11th 2018 @ 11:53am
              piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:53am | ! Report

              Close to 100% would agree that it’s not ok to be a d#ck to people for who they are

              The remainder don’t matter

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 1:00pm
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:00pm | ! Report

                close to 100% of people who indulge in identity politics would agree it is ok to be d#ck to people for who they are if what they are offends them since people are measured by which identity group they are placed in

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 1:03pm
                piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:03pm | ! Report

                Do not conflate who people are with what people choose

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 1:11pm
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:11pm | ! Report

                Piru – I am not.

                Identity politics puts people in categories based on gender , sex, sexual orientation , race and then treat them and deal with them based on those categories.

                They do not base arguments or policies or treatment on individual merit which would be by their choices.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 1:48pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:48pm | ! Report

                PeterK the concept of identity politics is very slippery. But how does it relate to the Folau situation?

              • May 11th 2018 @ 2:08pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 11th 2018 @ 2:08pm | ! Report

                Also Peterk, isn’t Folau the one playing identity politics? He has identified a group, unrepentant gays, and said they are going to hell because of that very identity?

              • Roar Rookie

                May 11th 2018 @ 1:37pm
                piru said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:37pm | ! Report

                Are you not engaging in identity politics by claiming all those who engage in identity politics think X?

                ….

                Don’t worry I heard myself,

                I’m going to lie down

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 3:48pm
                PeterK said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:48pm | ! Report

                aussiekiwi – you have difficulty following threads I see.

                piru wrote

                Close to 100% would agree that it’s not ok to be a d#ck to people for who they are

                I illustrated that was not the case for people who use identity politics.

                I was replying to that not relating it to folau.

                Piru – They choose to use identity politics, and yes I am grouping people by what they think and the methods they employ, not how they were born. They categorise people by the way they were born treat them based on that not choices or actions they have made.

              • May 12th 2018 @ 6:51am
                Aussikiwi said | May 12th 2018 @ 6:51am | ! Report

                No difficulty PeterK, its just that you have raised identity politics in several Folau threads, presumably because you think it’s relevant. I was curious to know how you thought it relevant.

                And by the way you didn’t “illustrate” anything, you just made a gross generalisation that in your opinion an ill defined group would all (or close to all) think the same way.

            • Roar Guru

              May 11th 2018 @ 3:49pm
              Timbo (L) said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:49pm | ! Report

              If I am playing rugby and my team is winning 21 to 14, we aren’t 3.5 points ahead.

              150% of 40 = 60

              Or does the bible define maths differently too.

              • May 11th 2018 @ 5:06pm
                elvis said | May 11th 2018 @ 5:06pm | ! Report

                No, it means if points were taken off you and given to the other team, you would be equal with only 3.5 points taken off.
                Equate that to if a YES voter Changed to NO, only half of the difference between the results changing would be needed to make the scores even.
                Jesus said, no Rugby unless you do your maths homework.

              • Roar Guru

                May 11th 2018 @ 5:46pm
                Timbo (L) said | May 11th 2018 @ 5:46pm | ! Report

                So if we had one less conversion and they had one more, the scores would be even.

                Sound a lot like rhetoric that you hear from a losing side.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 1:00pm
            Perthstayer said | May 11th 2018 @ 1:00pm | ! Report

            Timbo

            Hmm…..50% more votes. The numbers could also be translated as if 10% had voted no instead of yes. Or if the No vote had increased the number of votes it did win by 23%.

            Either way though, top players have been way too silent. They should tweet:

            “Folau has tweeted his personal belief. This is not shared by me, nor RA, and not by rugby related sponsors. Rugby union welcomes everyone. On xx date there is a coaching clinic at xx after which there will be a discussion around encouraging members of the LGBTI community to join the rugby union community.” (or words to that effect)

      • May 11th 2018 @ 10:31am
        In Brief said | May 11th 2018 @ 10:31am | ! Report

        You could also call the LGBTI community fundamentalist in they fundamentally believe it is unacceptable to question their lifestyle choices. The Bible also states that adulterers are sinners. How come all the adulterers are not going crazy?

        • Roar Guru

          May 11th 2018 @ 3:53pm
          Timbo (L) said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:53pm | ! Report

          Nobody told us we were going to burn in hell.

          • Roar Guru

            May 11th 2018 @ 4:27pm
            Ralph said | May 11th 2018 @ 4:27pm | ! Report

            Hey Timbo,

            The Christian view is that there is justice after death, and that people who commit adultery (amongst other things) will be judged for it – but that God has made a way for those who make such mistakes to be made new and be redeemed from that judgement.

            Sorry if that’s not good news for you.

            • Roar Guru

              May 11th 2018 @ 5:48pm
              Timbo (L) said | May 11th 2018 @ 5:48pm | ! Report

              And now you have,

            • Roar Guru

              May 11th 2018 @ 6:03pm
              Timbo (L) said | May 11th 2018 @ 6:03pm | ! Report

              So it is my turn to exercise my freedom of expression to respond

              Given that you have already stated that you are religious and support, and are defending your religious doctrine it can be inferred that these views are also yours.

              Your opinions are pre-historic, intolerant and not welcome in modern society.
              The source of your ideology is nothing more than a collection of fables selectively collated by a 3rd century Caesar in an attempt to control his population, i many cases using fear.

              Your opinion on this matter is unfounded and worthless to me.

              • Roar Guru

                May 12th 2018 @ 8:57am
                Ralph said | May 12th 2018 @ 8:57am | ! Report

                I guess there could be minor differences, but sure, I believe in justice and that it takes place after death. That there must be a final reckoning or justice is a sham.

                And you are welcome to your opinion.

                I will defend your right to have and voice those opinions, even when I know, in this particular instance, that I don’t entirely agree with you.

                That fact you don’t agree with my opinions is almost irrelevant to the debate. Except in so far as it explains the lens your see through.

                What I request from you is respect and tolerance, and, regardless of what you choose in that regard, I will extend both to you.

        • May 11th 2018 @ 3:54pm
          Big Dog said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:54pm | ! Report

          *sigh*

          Because adultery is a choice and homosexuality is not. Please don’t bother with a response.

          • May 11th 2018 @ 11:23pm
            Utah said | May 11th 2018 @ 11:23pm | ! Report

            Big Dog they probably think skin colour is a choice too.

          • May 12th 2018 @ 6:05am
            Sage said | May 12th 2018 @ 6:05am | ! Report

            You know bigdog, that very important point on choice has tried to be made countless times since all this started. I realised it isn’t that some don’t get it, it’s that they don’t want to.Most of the issue here is simply how people feel about homosexuality. It isn’t about Folau part from them cheering his condemnation

          • Roar Guru

            May 12th 2018 @ 8:58am
            Ralph said | May 12th 2018 @ 8:58am | ! Report

            adultery is a choice and homosexuality is not

            I don’t believe you are scientifically correct on that point.

            • May 12th 2018 @ 10:22am
              Sage said | May 12th 2018 @ 10:22am | ! Report

              Science hey. You do know how many holes science Punches in the Christian religion and the bible don’t you.
              Ignoring the irony, go and have just a small search on the topic. Look at the bulk of scientific opinion and you’ll see your comment is inaccurate.
              I’m assuming you’re hetero rather than a tormented gay Christian and if so, when did you make that choice, to be hetero, or did you just know you didn’t dig guys sexually?

              https://www.health24.com/Sex/Sexual-diversity/The-verdict-is-in-homosexuality-is-not-a-choice-20150807

              • Roar Guru

                May 12th 2018 @ 10:38am
                Ralph said | May 12th 2018 @ 10:38am | ! Report

                I don’t know of any scientific ‘holes’ at all. Maybe if you unpacked what you exactly mean by holes or gave some examples.

                My sexuality has no relevance here and the answers to your questions about my private life are none of your business.

                I already did the google thing and found this article that cite a specific research study:
                http://www.newsweek.com/being-gay-your-dna-scientists-keep-trying-find-genetic-basis-sexual-741084

                “We know that sexual orientation has some hereditary or genetic contributions,” Dr. Alan Sanders, a psychiatrist at NorthShore University HealthSystem Research Institute and an author of the paper, told Newsweek. “A common scenario in this kind of research is that you’ll hear people use a sort of shorthand like ‘the gay gene,’ which is not really accurate at all.”

                “The sample size is small, the results have not been replicated in an independent study and the level of evidence presented doesn’t meet the threshold of significance typically required within the field,” wrote Gil McVean, a statistical geneticist at the University of Oxford. “I don’t think the work would have been published if it were on a less controversial topic. It is—at best—preliminary.”

                As Robin Lovell-Badge, a developmental biologist at the Francis Crick Institute, wrote, “The increase in value of my flat correlates with my increase in age—but I doubt that there is any causal relationship.” “Even if a gene variant does show some correlation with sexual orientation, this does not mean that the gene is in any way responsible for being gay,”

                That is the closet research I found making a claim of causal link. The criticisms of that research seem pretty valid to me. Especially the Crick Institute, they seem to know a fair bit about genetics.

              • May 12th 2018 @ 11:15am
                Sage said | May 12th 2018 @ 11:15am | ! Report

                No need to get snippy Ralph. I don’t care of your orientation either way. That wasn’t the point. The point was the choice. We all are all mostly oriented one way or the other and that usually isn’t something we chose. That is the point. Who you are sexually isn’t a choice. If you don’t wish to engage on that point no problem.
                As to science and the bible, I imagine you already know some of the things I might raise and I also imagine you have ready made answers. I don’t think it’s your first rodeo Ralph. I’ve heard some very imaginative suggestions with regard to the bible, the actual age of the earth, evolution, on the origin of species. One of my personal favourites was the getting of the millions of insects 2 by 2 on the arc and how they all stayed and hung out together and how they ate, how those with a life span of less that 40 days and 40 nights got on etc etc.
                Anyway, don’t take this as disrespect of Christianity or Christians, I just don’t believe in the literal-ness of the bible or that it’s meant to be taken literally
                My main point in all of this is that being homosexual is not a choice as science and homosexuals will tell you. Whether we think we know better is up to us individually.
                The other point is that it is only slightly about Folau, is is more about how each of us considers homosexuality and hence, the lines we draw and the arguments we engage in. I think there is also a fair bit of same sex marriage voter frustration driving this circular debate. I didn’t intend to engage on this topic again and yet here I am so I think I’ll exit quietly again.
                Respect to you Ralph and your beliefs.

              • Roar Guru

                May 12th 2018 @ 3:24pm
                Ralph said | May 12th 2018 @ 3:24pm | ! Report

                No problems, I choose not to take offence Sage, I just thought you might be playing the man. Apologies if I was mistaken.

                I would point out that a thing can be true and not literal. There is such a thing as metaphorical truth. When we say, ‘it raining cats and dogs out there’, we don’t mean there are literally animals falling from the sky, but that doesn’t detract from the truth of the statement that the rain is very hard.

                So I don’t have any problems not taking such things as insects on arks at a literal level, because it wasn’t meant to be understood in that way.

                I would also venture the idea that things that are unseen can also be true. Otherwise a concept like courage has no meaning.

                I respect everyones freedom to live whatever way they want, but in the same sentence don’t believe every choice is a wise choice.

                As for genetics, it clearly has some affect of many things. But the core of one side of this debate is really that to say *anything* about gay is to attack something sacred. Which is why some feel it is mean and hurtful. Which I don’t think is a factually correct position. I might be genetically predisposed to stealing, but society finds that unacceptable. Simply to say that if a thing is *not* sacred then it should be open to discussion and not ring fenced away from discussion.

                Respect to you as well.

      • May 11th 2018 @ 3:01pm
        Taylorman said | May 11th 2018 @ 3:01pm | ! Report

        Disagree drongo because the very comments he supports is not just about silencing a very large percentage of people its about condemning them, ‘telling’ them to change their orientation and if they dont sending them to hell.

        Pedaphiles might public express their like for children, do we offer them the due respect they deserve, keep supporting them, employing them, hold them up as role models because of the good they do in society in other roles? No, because the implied impact on those is unacceptable.

        Yet to some this is just as repuls?!ive.

        • Roar Guru

          May 11th 2018 @ 4:29pm
          Ralph said | May 11th 2018 @ 4:29pm | ! Report

          No, its about redeeming them, not condemning them, because God has made a way of escape.

      • May 12th 2018 @ 8:06am
        Ruckin Oaf said | May 12th 2018 @ 8:06am | ! Report

        “The fact is that there are a lot of fundamental and not so fundamental religious believers who share the view that jihad is fine according to their God’s rules as stated in their holy books”

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