Why is Folau untouchable?

Gazbo Roar Guru

By Gazbo, Gazbo is a Roar Guru

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    The conundrum facing Raelene Castle and Rugby AU over Israel Folau’s repeated comments about gay marriage is complex to say the least.

    For Folau to use social media as a platform to express his controversial views raises a number of questions. On the one hand is Folau’s right to have freedom of speech, but on the other hand he is being disrespectful and inconsiderate over such a sensitive issue.

    You would have thought that all rugby union players employed by Rugby AU would have certain constraints placed on them on what they are and aren’t allowed to discuss on social media, but it would appear that they don’t.

    Israel Folau

    Israel Folau (Photo by Mark Nolan/Getty Images)

    The tweets sent by Folau have been inflammatory and could be construed by some as inciting hatred towards the gay community. He has been accused of as much. So why Castle and Rugby AU haven’t come out yet and censured or sanctioned Folau is a mystery. It is showing a clear lack of leadership.

    I have a huge amount of respect for Folau as he has played at the highest level in not just one, but three sports: rugby league, rugby union and AFL. He has represented the Kangaroos and Wallabies with distinction. This is rare, with only Folau and Karmichael Hunt having achieved the honour this decade.

    Folau understandably has deep religious views and beliefs which he is fully entitled to, but as a high-profile professional sportsman it is hard to comprehend why he insists on using his Twitter account to express them. Why does he feel the need to endorse beliefs of certain religious figures in the public domain, when there’s a better time and place to do that?

    At the end of the day religion and sport don’t mix well, they never have and they never will, so the sooner that Folau realises that the better.

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    The Crowd Says (373)

    • May 15th 2018 @ 5:39am
      Taylorman said | May 15th 2018 @ 5:39am | ! Report

      Geez, and Moody tried so hard to keep Folau off the topic for at least a day, bless him.

      • May 15th 2018 @ 5:52am
        Jerry said | May 15th 2018 @ 5:52am | ! Report

        Don’t worry – next week Paddy O’Brien is planning to give a penalty try against the Tahs when Richie McCaw is head high tackled by Sonny Bill Williams while using his hand in the ruck and Richard Loe is gonna eye gouge Bernard Foley during a Michael Cheika press conference where he moans about something. That should be good for a few days banter.

      • May 16th 2018 @ 12:42pm
        Mr Hollywood said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:42pm | ! Report

        One of the best moves I’ve seen since Hulk Hogen.

    • Roar Guru

      May 15th 2018 @ 5:54am
      Corne Van Vuuren said | May 15th 2018 @ 5:54am | ! Report

      Because there is a song “you can’t touch this….”

      • May 15th 2018 @ 1:56pm
        Highlander said | May 15th 2018 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

        Anyone else notice YMCA by the Village People booming out of the ground speakers with 2 minutes to go on Saturday.

        • May 15th 2018 @ 5:19pm
          Bamboo said | May 15th 2018 @ 5:19pm | ! Report

          Its Raining Men got a whirl also.

        • Roar Guru

          May 15th 2018 @ 6:04pm
          Corne Van Vuuren said | May 15th 2018 @ 6:04pm | ! Report

          Nope missed that.

      • Roar Guru

        May 16th 2018 @ 12:45pm
        Jokerman said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:45pm | ! Report

        How are your bible studies going, Corne?

        90% lies and you can find it in a flash.

        • May 16th 2018 @ 12:48pm
          Fionn said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:48pm | ! Report

          I wonder how long it will take Mr Hollywood to agree with Jokerman.

          • May 16th 2018 @ 12:53pm
            Fionn said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:53pm | ! Report

            Oh look, Mr Hollywood posted just above at 12.42 and now Jokerman comments just below at 12.45.

            Who could possibly have predicted this?

          • Roar Guru

            May 16th 2018 @ 2:05pm
            Jokerman said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:05pm | ! Report

            Fionn you’re getting all mixed up. What chapter of the bible have you been reading? This could be influencing your writing. Remember when Lordy called you Fiona and asked how your trip was in Paris? When in fact you were probably sitting in a desert in Australia somewhere. Mix ups happen, or was it?!

            • May 16th 2018 @ 2:18pm
              Fionn said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:18pm | ! Report

              Come along now Mr Hollywood, that’s your cue to come in and agree and bring one of your zingers.

          • May 16th 2018 @ 2:19pm
            Mr Hollywood said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:19pm | ! Report

            I wonder how how long it will take before we discover you’re the daughter of Lordy.

            • May 16th 2018 @ 2:26pm
              Fionn said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:26pm | ! Report

              For someone claims to be a good person and to want to criticise things like Folau’s comments Hollywood/Jokerman the fact that you’re continuing to try and bully me about my name and have for months now shows your true character.

              The fact is that I don’t really mind how long you continue the ‘Fiona’ business, as it was something that I stopped getting in about yr 7 when (most) people grew up and went to high school. However, you’re nevertheless trying to bully me about my name, and you show little (if any) appreciation for non-Anglophone names/cultures. So whatever, mate, keep it coming. It just shows your true colours.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 2:31pm
                Jokerman said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:31pm | ! Report

                Come on Fionn it’s just some light banter with humour. No offensive was ever intended. Peace 🙏🏻

              • May 16th 2018 @ 5:37pm
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 16th 2018 @ 5:37pm | ! Report

                Oh it was just a joke. Well that’s ok.

                I mean it’s not like some bullying jerk has ever used that excuse before.

              • May 17th 2018 @ 12:31pm
                Mr Hollywood said | May 17th 2018 @ 12:31pm | ! Report

                I hope I am also forgiven, Fionn, and I think we should all forgive Ruckin Oaf for being the Antichrist

              • May 16th 2018 @ 8:26pm
                Fionn said | May 16th 2018 @ 8:26pm | ! Report

                That’s okay. I forgive you, and hold no ill will.

              • May 17th 2018 @ 12:39pm
                Fionn said | May 17th 2018 @ 12:39pm | ! Report

                No ill will to you either, Hollywood. All in the past.

              • May 18th 2018 @ 5:21pm
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 18th 2018 @ 5:21pm | ! Report

                🙂 🙂 🙂

        • Roar Guru

          May 16th 2018 @ 6:18pm
          Corne Van Vuuren said | May 16th 2018 @ 6:18pm | ! Report

          Happy to see you are concerned about my involvement with religion jokerman, spread the Word my man 😉

    • May 15th 2018 @ 6:09am
      Kane said | May 15th 2018 @ 6:09am | ! Report

      I wouldn’t mention Hunt and Folau in the same sentence when it comes to their dual code successes.

      One is a proven world class player in Union the other is Karmichael Hunt

      • May 15th 2018 @ 1:01pm
        Hello said | May 15th 2018 @ 1:01pm | ! Report

        Both are proven failures in AFL though.

        • Roar Guru

          May 15th 2018 @ 3:50pm
          Kane said | May 15th 2018 @ 3:50pm | ! Report

          I thought hunt was a reasonable AFL player? Less said about Folau and AFL the better

      • May 15th 2018 @ 9:49pm
        brian said | May 15th 2018 @ 9:49pm | ! Report

        Hunt has a Champions League title

      • May 15th 2018 @ 10:28pm
        soapit said | May 15th 2018 @ 10:28pm | ! Report

        the double standard for success held for league players coming across is ridiculous

    • May 15th 2018 @ 6:26am
      Swannie said | May 15th 2018 @ 6:26am | ! Report

      Seems to a simple case of breach of the ARU/Waratahs inclusion policy, so they should be working Izzy through a three strikes process and then off he goes to greener pastures overseas. I’m sure his twitter habits will go down a treat in Europe.

      He wants the free speech platform which is cool, but its a breach of his employment terms so it should be pretty clear cut.

      If he’s such a committed Christian I dont understand why he is so obsessed about how people have sex, surely the world and his religion have bigger fish to fry.

      • May 15th 2018 @ 7:40am
        Cynical Play said | May 15th 2018 @ 7:40am | ! Report

        He’s dumb. Plays great but dumber than a box of rocks. Raelene is damned if she does and damned if she don’t. So she just offers defensive blocks. Is Izzy too dumb to know to stop now? I’m not sure.
        Anyway if he can shut up for good his footy will change the conversation.

        • May 15th 2018 @ 8:05am
          Cynical Play said | May 15th 2018 @ 8:05am | ! Report

          Perhaps that was a little un-Christian of me. Withdrawn.

          • May 15th 2018 @ 10:39am
            StuM said | May 15th 2018 @ 10:39am | ! Report

            Hey, don’t worry about it – just repent..! It’s a “get outta jail free” card, right? 😅

          • May 15th 2018 @ 11:34am
            ScottD said | May 15th 2018 @ 11:34am | ! Report

            Say 3 hail mary’s my son

            • May 15th 2018 @ 12:36pm
              Akari said | May 15th 2018 @ 12:36pm | ! Report

              And, “Bend ze knees!” he shouted, “pretend like you are making love, ja!”

              • May 16th 2018 @ 12:56pm
                ScottD said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:56pm | ! Report

                one step too far 🙂

          • May 15th 2018 @ 1:45pm
            The Sheriff said | May 15th 2018 @ 1:45pm | ! Report

            Nah! Cynical, you have just explained it perfectly.

      • May 15th 2018 @ 3:55pm
        MH01 said | May 15th 2018 @ 3:55pm | ! Report

        Shame inclusive these days only applies to groups that find hurt everywhere . Read an article about how sleepy beauty promotes assault on women ….. is this where people want to head ??

        Facts don’t care about your feelings , but alas it’s all about feelings in the press.

        It’s acrually disgusting how freedom of speech and freedom of religion expression is swept aside like a secondary right on all these .

        • May 15th 2018 @ 4:14pm
          Cynical Play said | May 15th 2018 @ 4:14pm | ! Report

          Cry me a river…

          …and I’ll send you a case report of a young gay guy that strung himself up recently due to shame. One of many if you cared to look into it, in this country, which does better than others.

          What kind of religion demonises the very difference that your supposed God created?

          What kind of person looks to tell others how to live to a point where they damn them and shame them, and allows social attack?

          How have the evangelicals not moved beyond the witch-burning insanity and fear-mongering? Dumb?

          You argue for so-called freedom of religious expression but I bet you won’t wear the cost. Your type never do. Folau won’t. Ignorance is bliss.

          I’ll argue for tolerance and inclusion as is my right.

          • Roar Guru

            May 15th 2018 @ 4:47pm
            Ralph said | May 15th 2018 @ 4:47pm | ! Report

            I don’t agree with you because I don’t agree there is compelling scientific evidence that there is any ‘gay’ gene. Being gay is not functionally equivalent to having blue eyes or red hair. It just means choosing a sexual partner from the same sex.

            Therefore I do not see gay people are above discussion because they were ‘born that way’. Attraction is an enormously complex issue but we all have say in who we sleep with.

            What God did create is free will. We all should be mindful about how we exercise that.

            • Roar Guru

              May 15th 2018 @ 4:56pm
              The Neutral View From Sweden said | May 15th 2018 @ 4:56pm | ! Report

              No Ralph. Being gay is not a choice. Who chose to have sex with a choice, but feeling attraction is not a choice. Never has been. Never will be.

              Did you choose to be straight?
              Could you choose to be attracted to a man if you wanted to?

              If I believed in God I would certainly believe that he created gay men with a purpose. And I would be humble and accept I have no idea what his grand plan for gay men is. And so should you and so should Izzy.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 8:26am
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 8:26am | ! Report

                I don’t see the science that supports the view that ‘gay’ is equivalent to eye colour.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 3:41pm
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | May 16th 2018 @ 3:41pm | ! Report

                The science is right in front you every day…

                I could not get “hard” and attracted to a man even if it meant that all wars stopped, starvation disappeared, and eternal happiness for everyone.

                Could you – or any other straight man reading this – get “hard” on command?

                Being gay is not a choice and that is way discriminating gays is at the same level as discriminating someone for the color of their skin or the color of their eyes.

              • May 16th 2018 @ 5:47pm
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 16th 2018 @ 5:47pm | ! Report

                Hey Ralph,

                It’s probably more equivalent to “handedness”

                Most of us are naturally dominant with one hand or the other. And for most we are naturally right handed.

                Now you can force a right handed person to use their left hand and vice versa. But that still won’t change their natural preferences.

                Some people are also ambidextrous and able to use either hand easily some are close to ambidextrous but still have a dominant hand.

                And while there seems there is a genetic basis in that two left handed parents have a higher chance of having left handed offspring, no single gene has been identified that determines handedness.

                So if something as relatively simple as which hand you favour doesn’t have a single genetic cause why should something more complex as sexuality ?

                But you still wouldn’t argue that left hand people aren’t born that way.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 5:55pm
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 5:55pm | ! Report

                This is not correct NVFS.

                You are reducing an entire field of psychology to your experience and conveniently ignoring all dysfunctions and disorders. Attraction is not the simple thing you claim.

                All sexual activity involves choice. If you have some science that proves this is not the case then produce it.

                Canadian law on use of gender pronouns also declares you are wrong (not that I agree with that, just saying).

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 5:57pm
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 5:57pm | ! Report

                NVFS,

                Also, Robin Lovell-Badge, a developmental biologist at the Francis Crick Institute disagrees with your claim that being gay is the functional equivalence to skin colour or eye colour.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 7:44pm
                The Neutral View From Sweden said | May 16th 2018 @ 7:44pm | ! Report

                As said, the proof is right in front of you Ralph, me and most people reading and commenting on this.

                And you avoid answering the main question, can you get “hard” on command?

            • May 15th 2018 @ 5:56pm
              Cynical Play said | May 15th 2018 @ 5:56pm | ! Report

              There is a part of the brain which is primarily wired for gender preference. Generally speaking most males are hard-wired, irrespective of socialisation, to prefer females. But not all. And humans aren’t the only species this applies too. It’s a continuum and many factors determine sex drive and preference. To ignore the science is convenient for the evangelicals but it is real well established and convincing.

              For some, they try and choose according to social and religious pressure, but they are hard wired to prefer what they are hard wired to prefer.

              I dare to you to imagine saying what you said to your gay child or sibling if you have one. It’s inhumane.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 8:37am
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 8:37am | ! Report

                It’s a continuum and many factors determine sex drive and preference
                Yes, that’s basically what I said.

                Read the research CP. This is a link to a recent study (study published Dec. 2017).
                http://www.newsweek.com/being-gay-your-dna-scientists-keep-trying-find-genetic-basis-sexual-741084

                Listen to Robin Lovell-Badge from the Crick institute, “Even if a gene variant does show some correlation with sexual orientation, this does not mean that the gene is in any way responsible for being gay.”

                Listen to Dr Alan Sanders, who did the research trying to find this gay gene. Even he said, “A common scenario in this kind of research is that you’ll hear people use a sort of shorthand like ‘the gay gene,’ which is not really accurate at all.”

                At least respect the science.

            • May 15th 2018 @ 6:16pm
              Taylorman said | May 15th 2018 @ 6:16pm | ! Report

              Yes when do you choose to be straight Ralph? After all, it is a choice isnt it. You must have chosen your clothes at some point? Your job perhaps? What to eat for breakfast? How did you come to choosing your partner? Did you look at both genders and weigh up the pros and cons and go hmm, Ill choose….

              • May 15th 2018 @ 7:15pm
                Cynical Play said | May 15th 2018 @ 7:15pm | ! Report

                One of the great books and most easily read is “Brain Sex: The Real Difference Between Men and Women: by Anne Moir 2002

                It demonstrates how the brain template grows from inutero and is flushed with hormones at two vital times – in utero and then again at puberty. The wiring of the brain template and the nature of the hormones it is exposed to at key developmental periods determines to some degree, your gender preference, no matter what your phenotype.

                Choice only comes into it, within your determined genotype and gender preference wiring.

                I encourage you to read it Ralph. Very digestible science.

                Science, if done properly, is about finding the truth Ralph. The Bible is about historical religious beliefs which have been perceived as truths regardless of scientific opposition.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 8:42am
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 8:42am | ! Report

                Taylorman,

                I am following the science. For myself, I am always extremely careful about who I choose to sleep with, to say I have no choice in the matter seems a ridiculous and inaccurate proposition to me.

                Anyone who doesn’t think about who they are going to sleep with, better get ready for a lot of emotional turmoil. Sex is not like clothes or breakfast. It has strong emotional consequences, not to mention that children can result.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 8:47am
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 8:47am | ! Report

                CP,

                I will try and get time for that book.

                The proposal that men and woman are different is an interesting one in the gender debate. As I understand it, Canadian law has now been changed to reflect that ones gender identity is a social construct and you must (under law) now address anyone by whatever gender pronoun they choose. Failure to do so is now classified as discrimination. Not genetic at all under law.

                Interesting times.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 9:50am
                jeznez said | May 16th 2018 @ 9:50am | ! Report

                Ralph – people choose who they sleep with. My personal experience is that I don’t choose who I am attracted to, on that matter I just am.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 10:12am
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 10:12am | ! Report

                Attraction is a very complicated business Jeznez.

                Almost nobody acts on every attraction they feel. I could be attracted to your wife, we could act on that but the fruit of it could destroy my best long lasting relationship.

                Attraction also changes over time. It is not uncommon to look back in time and say words to the effect, ‘what was I thinking’, or, ‘we were never suited’.

                But all these things are miles from genetics, which is my main point.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 12:37pm
                jeznez said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:37pm | ! Report

                Nature, nurture or a combination of the two doesn’t take away from the fact that people don’t choose who they are attracted to or who they fall in love with.

                If consenting adults choose to act on their feelings – then in my mind – all power to them.

                And the adultery angle doesn’t wash – one is looking at betrayal of vows that a couple have made to each other – hardly equivalent to the condemnation of a group of people for being same sex oriented or some other variant.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 12:47pm
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:47pm | ! Report

                Jeznez,
                The adultery example isn’t about the condemnation, it’s just an example where two people acted on their feelings of attraction. Feeling attraction is one thing. But it is not the only thing.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 1:49pm
                jeznez said | May 16th 2018 @ 1:49pm | ! Report

                And we are back to a group being told they’ll be judged if they act on their feelings while others are free to act on theirs.

                The comments marginalise a group and justifiy it via a selective reading of ancient texts in order to single them out.

              • May 16th 2018 @ 2:48pm
                AndyS said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:48pm | ! Report

                Wow there is some hyperbole on this. The comment “marginalised a group” to the same extent that “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” marginalises rich people.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 16th 2018 @ 2:57pm
                piru said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:57pm | ! Report

                Not even close to the same thing, but does ask the question – where does Israel stand on this?

                Haven’t seen him attacking the rich folk

              • May 16th 2018 @ 3:14pm
                AndyS said | May 16th 2018 @ 3:14pm | ! Report

                It means exactly the same thing and destination for the group in question. Moreover, it is direct from the mouth of Jesus himself so it would indeed be interesting to know Folau’s position…

              • Roar Rookie

                May 16th 2018 @ 3:10pm
                Paul D said | May 16th 2018 @ 3:10pm | ! Report

                “Haven’t seen him attacking the rich folk”

                Given that Hillsong believe in Prosperity theology, i.e. their wealth acquired on earth is the will of God and therefore the more wealthy they are, the more God is rewarding them.

                Ain’t that convenient?

              • Roar Rookie

                May 16th 2018 @ 3:55pm
                piru said | May 16th 2018 @ 3:55pm | ! Report

                It means exactly the same thing and destination for the group in question.

                yep – but hoarding wealth and being rich is a choice one makes

                ie it’s an action you take, not who you are

              • May 16th 2018 @ 8:04pm
                AndyS said | May 16th 2018 @ 8:04pm | ! Report

                Yes they could choose that, just like someone could choose to have no sex at all (it being the action rather than the attraction that apparently gets you Gods naughty chair, after all). The ease and probability of a rich person being able to do that is exactly the point of the quote, well done.

                Empirically, I would have said it was less likely. No-one should be forced to do so, but lots of people choose celibacy of their own free will. Every nun has denied her sexuality regardless of what it was, but there is no way they were all giving up wealth at the same time. Who was the last person you heard of doing that?

            • May 16th 2018 @ 10:18am
              Craig said | May 16th 2018 @ 10:18am | ! Report

              excellent responses Ralph … am with you 100%

              • May 16th 2018 @ 5:50pm
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 16th 2018 @ 5:50pm | ! Report

                So Craig and Ralph how does it work guys.

                How you make the choice ?

                I take it that you are both equally attracted to men and women but you make the choice only to peruse relationship with the opposite gender.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 6:25pm
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 6:25pm | ! Report

                Hi Ruckin Oaf,

                This is what I have found out so far.

                1. The research says it is not genetic like eye colour is genetic.

                2. The Canadian government says sexual identity is a social construct.

                3. Science seems to suggest attraction is a extremely complex thing that we don’t fully understand.

                That’s it so far, as I understand it.

              • May 16th 2018 @ 9:00pm
                Ruckin Oaf said | May 16th 2018 @ 9:00pm | ! Report

                Hey Ralph,

                The Canadian Government is an authority in this area ?

                Secondly if sexual attraction is an extremely complex thing why are you using a simple thing like eye colour as an analogy ?

                But mostly I was curious about you and Craig on a more personal level.

                How do you navigate being equally attracted to both genders ?

                I’m curious as that I find myself having a definite gender preference and I don’t think that I could choose to be attracted to the other gender.

            • May 16th 2018 @ 12:10pm
              red and green said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:10pm | ! Report

              Given your belief in both God and free will, I’m gonna take your view on science with a grain of salt.

              Gay folk have been demonised, ridiculed, bashed, killed, subjected to scientific experiments, put in concentration camps and driven to suicide over the last 2,000 years thanks to the Abrahamic religions. Future generations will correctly identify this as evil and folk like Folau, who deliberately target minorities, will be seen as trash.

              ps. I attended my first gay wedding on the weekend. The two grooms had to wait 40 years for their big day and there wasn’t a dry eye in the house. Both are far better men than Folau.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 12:55pm
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:55pm | ! Report

                You don’t need to take my view on anything, you can read the research yourself. I have posted a few links to help.

                I think your history summary a ridiculous over simplification.

                Any honest reading of history will find wall to wall suffering that has almost nothing to do with who was sleeping with who.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 2:42pm
                Wal said | May 16th 2018 @ 2:42pm | ! Report

                Any honest reading of history will find wall to wall suffering that has almost nothing to do with who was sleeping with who.

                You’ve lost me because humans throughout history have a terrible record of treating anyone who is different we shouldn’t try and stop that in the future???

                Since you like a link and feel homosexuality is a free will perhaps the quote below and link might at least give you pause for thought.

                A review of 47 different studies by Cornell Uni found below.

                However, after reviewing the research, we concluded that there is no credible evidence that sexual orientation can be changed through therapeutic intervention. Most accounts of such change are akin to instances of “faith healing.” There is also powerful evidence that trying to change a person’s sexual orientation can be extremely harmful.

                https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-whether-conversion-therapy-can-alter-sexual-orientation-without-causing-harm/

                Have read

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 4:22pm
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 4:22pm | ! Report

                Hi Wal,

                I don’t really know what conversion therapy is, but it sounds awful.

                And you are dead right, we should try and stop suffering.

                I guess I thought red and green was missing a bit of context. The fact people suffer is wider than any one group and being someone who suffers doesn’t give any promotion to moral authority over anyone else. My comment was verging on defensive.

                I do not pretend to know the complexities of attraction Wal, I simply researched the claim that was made on this site, that ‘gay’ is genetic and (by implication) a sacred thing that cannot be questioned. But conversely, who we are attracted too and choose to sleep with is not totally absent of choice. We are not machines or animals.

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 5:28pm
                Wal said | May 16th 2018 @ 5:28pm | ! Report

                All Fair points Ralph,

                Both sides of this discussion have their own extremes.
                My summary of it all is Folaus comments were offensive to a section on society and as such he is in breach RA’s inclusion policy. I think they have tried to be very diplomatic in their response but the second tweet probably warranted some form of censure. 1 week off or similar.

                Had his tweet been singling out any other group in our society I would feel the same. Equally had he condemned all Christians to damnation. Would I have felt as compelled to comment perhaps not, however my compulsion to against Izzy comments is due to personal experience with gay friends.
                The abuse and segregation they have had to endure has to stop.
                This is why I have felt the need to call out how hurtful his comments can be.

            • May 16th 2018 @ 7:01pm
              Aussikiwi said | May 16th 2018 @ 7:01pm | ! Report

              Ralph, why are you so desperate to believe sexual orientation is a choice? The science is pretty clear that there is a spectrum when it comes to sexual orientation. For at least some people there is no real choice. Their same sex preference is so strong, from such an early age, that having relations with the opposite sex is inconceivable. Why is that so difficult for you to accept?

              Do you too believe having a same sex relationship is a sin leading to eternal damnation? Is that why you are so determined to see only one side of the science and grasp at anything which suggests there may be an element of choice (which for some people only, no doubt there is)?

              You introduce the complete red herring of Canadian legislation, which proves what? That Canadians are progressive in allowing people determine their own identities? The legislation is about gender identification and says absolutely nothing about how people’s sexual preferences are determined.

              And by the way you should educate yourself about conversion therapy. Do you really think that poor young gay Christians would be subjecting themselves to that torture if sexual orientation was just a choice???

              • Roar Guru

                May 16th 2018 @ 7:35pm
                Ralph said | May 16th 2018 @ 7:35pm | ! Report

                I am quoting the science.

                I did the looking because many people made categorical statements with no supporting evidence. A lot of people stated that gay is genetic like eye colour and it was important to know if what they said was true. I context of the debate it is very important.

                If gay is genetic then it is sacred. Scared things are those which it seems fair to me to have discrimination laws about. Nobody has any control over those things, in which case Folau would clearly have been in the wrong, in my view. It wouldn’t qualify as hate speech in law but it is inappropriate at that point.

                But gay isn’t genetic as they claimed. There are scientists still looking, but that’s the facts as they are today.

                Instead of searching for something to confirm your bias about me why don’t you just read the science?

                I quoted the Canadian law because contract law is a part of my job, and so that is interesting to me, and I think it may turn out to be relevant in the near future. Gender and sexuality are not so completely unrelated to each other as you suppose. Feel free to ignore that part of my posts if you wish.

                To be honest, I have no interest in finding out about conversion therapy, but thanks for the suggestion I guess.

              • May 17th 2018 @ 6:24pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 17th 2018 @ 6:24pm | ! Report

                No Ralph, you have no interest in the subject of conversion therapy because it undermines your argument that being gay is just a choice.

                I have read the science, and have already summarised my readings in the post above. It is you who is being selective and misrepresenting the science. I was just curious why you should do that. The only reason that makes sense is that you think being gay is a sin.

              • Roar Guru

                May 18th 2018 @ 2:07pm
                Ralph said | May 18th 2018 @ 2:07pm | ! Report

                With all due respect Aussiekiwi, you are the one who didn’t post any links to any research at all.

                How can anyone verify you aren’t just posting your prejudice or overstating poor quality research?

                And although you telling me *why* I have an interest in a thing (or not) is amusing for a giggle, it’s patently ridiculous. It is like those people, who one occasionally meets, who, when introduced to somebody, insist on telling that person how they are mispronouncing their very own name.

              • May 18th 2018 @ 2:25pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 18th 2018 @ 2:25pm | ! Report

                I didn’t say that was the reason. Maybe you have a reason that doesn’t make sense. But I doubt it, nor do I care. Your refusal to accept that some people are only attracted to people of the same sex is quite bizarre.

                If you seriously contend, still, that there is no predetermination of sexual orientation, while at the same time deliberately ignoring the sad history of conversion therapy, then no real science will convince you otherwise.

                I suppose you would want proof that the world wasn’t created 5000 years ago, too?

          • May 15th 2018 @ 7:26pm
            Big Dog said | May 15th 2018 @ 7:26pm | ! Report

            Well said, CP 🙏

          • May 17th 2018 @ 6:44pm
            In brief said | May 17th 2018 @ 6:44pm | ! Report

            You guys are seriously deluded. On Folau’s mind he is reaching out and offering guidance. If religion is as crazy as you say gay people will ignore this advice.

        • May 15th 2018 @ 9:54pm
          brian said | May 15th 2018 @ 9:54pm | ! Report

          Google “Tuam” and “Magdalene Laundries”. Then come back and say how the wonderful christian church has any right to say anything about love, compassion or in fact anything that their inspiration espoused. And that anyone who follows their dogma has anything worthwhile to say.

          • May 15th 2018 @ 10:22pm
            riddler said | May 15th 2018 @ 10:22pm | ! Report

            religion and nationalism.. horrible products of humankind..

            in my opinion..

            • May 16th 2018 @ 12:12pm
              Cynical Play said | May 16th 2018 @ 12:12pm | ! Report

              no more destructive forces, historically speaking… agree+++

            • Roar Guru

              May 16th 2018 @ 6:52pm
              Corne Van Vuuren said | May 16th 2018 @ 6:52pm | ! Report

              Alongside greed and power, eh?

        • May 16th 2018 @ 5:39pm
          Ruckin Oaf said | May 16th 2018 @ 5:39pm | ! Report

      • May 16th 2018 @ 3:11pm
        Unanimous said | May 16th 2018 @ 3:11pm | ! Report

        It seems a simple clear-cut case because you’ve misunderstood his words, which appears to be common. He has not breached any employment terms. They aren’t working through any strikes.

        Your last comment says it all about your understanding of Christianity, and explains why you misunderstand. Sexual practice is one of the core aspects of Christianity. They believe that it is for having children, not fun. They believe that everyone is born with temptations to have sex for non-reproductive purposes, and that people who do so have sinned. A majority of Christians are taught this even about sex inside marriage – you might have heard about the pope talking about condoms.

        Folau has not said anything about gay people that doesn’t apply in his religion to everyone, including himself. He is happy to play with gay people, and is happy to include them. If they come with the right attitude, he would especially welcome them to his church. There has been no breach of anyone’s policies.

        • Roar Guru

          May 16th 2018 @ 6:53pm
          Corne Van Vuuren said | May 16th 2018 @ 6:53pm | ! Report

          Good post

        • May 17th 2018 @ 6:30am
          Swannie said | May 17th 2018 @ 6:30am | ! Report

          Correct I don’t understand religion. Disagree though, if Izzy continues with the Twitter post he wont be playing sport in Australia. Once he realises he’ll get hit in the hip pocket he will rethink his “convictions”

          • Roar Guru

            May 17th 2018 @ 6:44am
            Corne Van Vuuren said | May 17th 2018 @ 6:44am | ! Report

            Doubt that, a devout christian is a little more committed than you think.

        • May 17th 2018 @ 12:04pm
          Laurence King said | May 17th 2018 @ 12:04pm | ! Report

          Well yes, Christians on the whole do believe that sex’s primary role is for procreation, and yes, in diverse times and in diverse places the emphasis has been primarily on the procreation. But generally, pleasure has been recognized as a important aspect of sex and the general bonding of couples who have committed their lives to the raising of children. Those tickley bits, we all might agree are difficult to ignore.

    • May 15th 2018 @ 6:26am
      Swannie said | May 15th 2018 @ 6:26am | ! Report

      Duplicate

    • May 15th 2018 @ 6:33am
      Kelefua said | May 15th 2018 @ 6:33am | ! Report

      I guess all the Folau talk takes the focus off the field.

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