Is Folau ready to turn up the heat on Weber?

Will Knight Columnist

By Will Knight, Will Knight is a Roar Expert

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272 Have your say

    It’s hardly Conor McGregor versus Floyd Mayweather, and thank goodness for that.

    There’s been no incessant jibber-jabber. No suffocating, tacky hype. No disingenuous, inane chest thumping geared solely to selling more pay-per-view subscriptions.

    Just a tweet and a reply. That’s the history between Israel Folau and Brad Weber.

    But their social media contact is far more heartfelt than any dribble that’s come out of the mouths of McGregor and Mayweather.

    And Folau and Weber are about to get into the ring to face each other – well them and 28 other big, aggressive blokes that want to run over the top of their opposition.

    It all started last month when Folau said on Instagram that God’s plan for gay people was

    “HELL… Unless they repent of their sins and turn to God”.

    He copped plenty of criticism. He got some freedom-of-speech supporters. Rugby Australia weren’t happy. Neither were their sponsors.

    Israel Folau

    Israel Folau of the Waratahs (Photo by Mark Metcalfe/Getty Images)

    And then Weber, the Chiefs halfback, didn’t want to let Folau off the hook, tweeting back with venom.

    “Kinda sick of us players staying quiet on some of this stuff,” Weber said. “I can’t stand that I have to play this game that I love with people, like Folau, who say what he’s saying. To think that I play against someone that says they’ll go to hell for being gay disgusts me.”

    Weber’s searing post sets up an intriguing sub-plot to Saturday’s Super Rugby clash between the Chiefs and Waratahs in Hamilton. Weber and Hurricanes halfback TJ Perenara were two current rugby players to have a crack at Folau. Is it any surprise it was a couple of No.9s chirping back?

    It’s the kind of sub-plot that rugby union is thin on. Around the time of Folau’s tweet, the Australian teams were struggling and crowds were dipping. He at least got many talking passionately.

    In fact, as problematic as Folau was viewed by RA, the publicity he generated was arguably an upside for them. They got to reiterate their diversity and inclusion policy and win some socially-progressive points. So did their major sponsor Qantas, as hypocritical as it was for them to shout down Folau while being in bed with Emirates.

    Nonetheless, the animosity shown by Weber towards Folau gives the clash – already a crucial one for both sides as the mid-season break approaches – another exciting element.

    Chances are they’re too professional to seek each other out and spark things up. Waratahs coach Daryl Gibson reckons there will be no issue between them – it’s “been put behind us” and “we certainly haven’t spoken about that”.

    But part of the reason we watch sport is because of the possibility of the brain explosion, the what-were-they-thinking moment. It’s unscripted drama. When heart rates are up, pride is on the line and adrenaline pumping, anything is possible. Yellow sandpaper anyone?!?!

    Surely Folau has pondered the scenario of getting the ball with room to move, cutting back on an angled run, lining up Weber and scorching over the top of him?!? He’s a proud man and he cherishes his religious views. Weber has dissed him and while this is no schoolyard scrap, it’s only human nature for Folau to want to get back at Weber.

    That’s the game-time intrigue. On top of that, it will also be worth keeping an eye out for the post-match interaction. Weber can be viewed as the representative for all of those people out there that lambasted Folau for his anti-homosexual message. How will Folau and Weber react when they come together after full-time?

    Perhaps there will be no hostilities between the pair. Maybe there will be just love and respect. But it’s a sub-plot worth monitoring. After all, there’s way more sincerity and authenticity in a face-to-face encounter than in abbreviated social media slap-downs.

    Will Knight
    Will Knight

    An AAP writer for more than a decade, Will Knight does his best to make sense of all things cricket, rugby union and rugby league, all while trying to have a laugh along the way. You can find him on Twitter @WKnightrider.

    State of Origin 2 is here, with the Blues looking to wrap the 2018 series up and the Maroons hoping to keep it alive and force a decider. Follow along with our NSW vs QLD Origin 2 live scores and blog.

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    The Crowd Says (272)

    • May 25th 2018 @ 6:49am
      Cynical Play said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:49am | ! Report

      Mate, I hope the footy does ALL the talking for the rest of the season. For the Tahs, that means a win against the Chiefs. I think they’ll get it done, but I’m a one-eyed fan.

      Let’s just talk footy.

      • May 25th 2018 @ 6:51am
        Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:51am | ! Report

        Can you tell Folau that then?

        • May 25th 2018 @ 6:56am
          MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:56am | ! Report

          Is Folau still beating this dead horse ….. or is it the media ?

          What are you implying ? What exactly is folau doing wrong now ? Cause you all don’t care about his performance on the field, but two tweets……

          I genuinely would like to know what he is doing wrong .

          • Roar Guru

            May 25th 2018 @ 7:45am
            eagleJack said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:45am | ! Report

            Yeah agree with this. I disagreed wholeheartedly with Folau’s views at the time, and the fact he printed them again.

            But it’s a dead horse now, that the media are still flogging to get clicks.

            Weber v Folau – really? How often does a 9 and 15 come together? Rarely, if ever.

            Looking forward to a cracking tussle. My guess is both of these professional players won’t be thinking of this issue when out on the field. I expect Folau’s sensational form of late to continue.

            Bookies have the Chiefs as heavy favourites. I think it will be closer than the line suggests.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 8:25am
              riddler said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:25am | ! Report

              agree ej..

              hoping for a follow up tah win!

            • Roar Guru

              May 25th 2018 @ 8:41am
              Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:41am | ! Report

              Not quite 15 on 9’s
              But both Joost and Gregan made tackles on Lomu I can’t seem to forget.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 3:15pm
              adam smith said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:15pm | ! Report

              Whoa Ej is that true, what are they offering? I’d be surprised if the Chiefs win, might have to take a punt on te Tahs I think.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 8:31am
            Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:31am | ! Report

            touchy touchy…heres kinda how it goes, someone writes a column about it, others comment on it.

            Shall we talk about the other dead horses- Quade for example. Does it get more deader than that?

            Nooooo…on and on and on….this is todays news compared to that carcass.

            The status quo is that Folau still thinks gays should repent. The status quo on Quade is that no one wants him to play for them.

            go figure…

            • May 25th 2018 @ 9:32am
              moaman said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:32am | ! Report

              “They shoot horses, don’t they?”

              • May 25th 2018 @ 10:45am
                Roger said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:45am | ! Report

                Excellent song, even if they were one hit wonders. Hopefully not an omen regarding the Tah’s chances…

            • May 25th 2018 @ 10:42am
              Rick Grimes said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:42am | ! Report

              Souths Magpies want him and that’s all that matter.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 12:47pm
              Drongo said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:47pm | ! Report

              Nice fantasy for you to wallow in about Quade. If only you knew the truth. Then again, that has never stopped your hateful agenda in the past.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:58pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:58pm | ! Report

                Quiet down Mrs Cooper

              • May 26th 2018 @ 8:49am
                Drongo said | May 26th 2018 @ 8:49am | ! Report

                Nothing shuts up the hateful Kiwis.

              • May 27th 2018 @ 6:46am
                Taylorman said | May 27th 2018 @ 6:46am | ! Report

                Folaus not a kiwi is he?

              • May 28th 2018 @ 12:15am
                Scottd said | May 28th 2018 @ 12:15am | ! Report

                Ok. What is the truth, Drongo?

            • May 25th 2018 @ 12:59pm
              Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:59pm | ! Report

              ‘The status quo on Quade is that no one wants him to play for them.’

              Yeah, that’s why he has been approached by both the Rebels and the Brumbies..

            • May 25th 2018 @ 1:05pm
              Muzzo said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:05pm | ! Report

              Yes T/man, agree, but now we hear that Cheika will not consider, him for Wallaby selection, if he doesn’t pick up a franchise. Fair enough too!.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 3:42pm
                Jasper said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:42pm | ! Report

                Piru. No one wants the Force in Super Rugby , pipe down mate.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:02pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:02pm | ! Report

                Piru. No one wants the Force in Super Rugby , pipe down mate.

                What an irrelevant and embarrassingly childish thing to say on a public forum

                I feel for you

            • May 25th 2018 @ 8:07pm
              soapit said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:07pm | ! Report

              deliberately ignorant comments dont do much to nd the horse flogging tman due to the natural instinct to correct them

      • Roar Guru

        May 25th 2018 @ 11:10am
        Timbo (L) said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:10am | ! Report

        Bookies don’t think so.

        As at 09:00hrs WST, Tahs ~$3.50 to win. Chiefs by 9.5.

        They don’t even think it will be close.

        I think it will be a close fought game for 60 minutes with a blowout at the end.
        Probably driven by a Card.
        Chiefs “Play the Margins” quite a bit
        The Tahs have a bad habit of giving away multiple penalties in a row.
        I think it will come down to discipline.
        I predict the Chiefs outside backs running the ball at Folau’s defensive position on the wing and it not ending well for someone.

    • May 25th 2018 @ 6:49am
      Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:49am | ! Report

      Only human nature for Folau to ‘get back’ at Weber?

      Not sire you get Folaus beliefs at all. He’s not the orchestrator of the comment, he just blindly follows it because thats what he was taught.

      I doubt it extends to hunting down his critics on the field. What would be the point of that?

      But happy for you to further enflame the situation. Its more likely that weber and his mates will target Folau, as weber found the mans comments repugn!nant. And good on him. They were.

      • May 25th 2018 @ 6:59am
        MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:59am | ! Report

        Though, you enflame the situation each thread that comes up . You have the right to be disgusted .

        Can I ask you something – do you believe in hell ?

        • May 25th 2018 @ 7:19am
          Kane said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:19am | ! Report

          Hell is 80 minutes of footy playing 10 when I’m the opposition 7 😉

          • May 25th 2018 @ 7:22am
            MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:22am | ! Report

            Ha ha ha . Now as a catholic , I believe your version of hell much more, than what the bible teaches me 😉

          • Roar Guru

            May 25th 2018 @ 8:43am
            Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:43am | ! Report

            Hell is Mike Catt in the opening 10 minutes of the ’95 RWC semi

        • May 25th 2018 @ 7:22am
          Highlander said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:22am | ! Report

          Been there – quarter final 2007

          • May 25th 2018 @ 8:10am
            jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:10am | ! Report

            Ha ha, I’m a Tahs fan so I’ve been there a lot…

        • May 25th 2018 @ 8:20am
          Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:20am | ! Report

          Yeah I think its where people like Folau go. Could be wrong though. The evidence on it is vague.:-)

        • May 25th 2018 @ 11:10am
          woodart said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:10am | ! Report

          do I believe in hell? yes,no rugby, no music, no speedway, no rugby,no art, surrounded by right wing nutcases, with no way out. does it exist…. not on my planet…..but I am a Kiwi

      • May 25th 2018 @ 7:18am
        Kane said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:18am | ! Report

        Disagree, he just blindly follows it because thats what he was taught.

        He blindly follows what he chooses to and ignores what he doesn’t.

        I’m all for freedom of speech/beliefs etc but he’s using his religion as an excuse to stand behind his personal views.

        • May 25th 2018 @ 8:12am
          jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:12am | ! Report

          Nah I don’t agree with that. I don’t know that he even has a personal view.

          He is getting guidance from Hillsong Minsters. If they told him differently, he’d think differently. You do realise that Folau is all for inclusion in rugby, and was even on the cover of a gay magazine promoting it? Differentiate that from his fundamentalist Christian views on heaven and hell.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 8:22am
            Council said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:22am | ! Report

            Funny what people will do for money eh? Especially when their personal beliefs so clearly disagree…

            • May 25th 2018 @ 9:43am
              jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:43am | ! Report

              They don’t.

              There is no conflict between Folau’s view that gays are sinners who need to repent or they’ll go to hell, and rugby is a great sport that everyone should be allowed to play.

              It’s not that hard to understand. Nowhere did Folau quote the passage from the bible that says all sinners need to repent or they won’t be allowed to play rugby.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 10:46am
                Roger said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:46am | ! Report

                Well, it is the game they play in heaven 😉

              • May 25th 2018 @ 10:48am
                Laurence King said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:48am | ! Report

                The Bible’s stance is that sin is missing the mark. The Bible’s stance is also that we are to hate the sin but not the sinner. The golden thread running through the whole Bible is redemption, for it maintains that we are all sinners. So largely this has been a beat-up. It is easy to take a comment and turn it into something that it’s not or make more of it than one should. Folau is his own man, not a mouthpiece for Hillsong ministers, he is mentally strong and he will play the game to win. I don’t think he will give Weber a second thought.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 10:50am
                Paulo said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:50am | ! Report

                So does that also extend to Qantas, who disagree with his views, and that of Etihads, but feel like people need to be able to fly where they need to?

              • May 25th 2018 @ 11:25am
                jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:25am | ! Report

                Ha ha, fair point Roger.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 10:45am
            Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:45am | ! Report

            Yes …its called…hypocri?sy. Nothing clearer than that.

            • Roar Guru

              May 25th 2018 @ 11:06am
              PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:06am | ! Report

              what rubbish, he just wants all sinners to repent, and accepts everyone sins at some point.

              He also clearly is behind inclusiveness re everybody playing rugby, unlike webber.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 11:57am
                Kane said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:57am | ! Report

                if he wanted all sinners to repent he wouldn’t play Sunday’s and would have his tattoos removed.

                But the church of Folau has decided that playing Sunday is an expression of his faith not a repentable sin.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:06pm
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:06pm | ! Report

                Kane – I don’t know what Hillsong’s view is on those aspects since they are his denomination of choice.

                I don’t know of any christian denomination that takes everything in the bible literally, it would be impossible since some are contradictory.

                So your comment really has very little weight or relevance.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 3:00pm
                Neil Back said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:00pm | ! Report

                Well, not so much if you take it as an observation on the confused, hypocritical and contradictory nature of both the old and new testaments. But then again, why would anyone seek anything else if you give a seconds semi rational thought or consideration to the sources. Not to mention the 2,000 odd years of growing up some have missed.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 3:05pm
                Laurence King said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:05pm | ! Report

                Agreed

              • May 25th 2018 @ 4:27pm
                James Mampara said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:27pm | ! Report

                Neil, the Bible actually goes back more than 3,500 years. If you’re ignorant of that fact, then you’re probably ignorant of others. It’s therefore irrational to claim that it’s contradictory, when you’re not fully informed.

              • May 26th 2018 @ 10:28am
                Neil Back said | May 26th 2018 @ 10:28am | ! Report

                Hello James.

                First, you might like to consider in your haste that I actually referred to ” 2,000 odd years of growing up ” without any reference to the age of either the Old or New Testament.

                Second, the New Testament in particular, is widely accepted by all to be contradictory. The 4 main books of the 27 were only ever actually written down as accounts at the earliest some 30 years after events, having spent the preceding years being passed on in a purely oral tradition. Have you ever played Chinese whispers? What could possibly go wrong there? They differ significantly particularly around major events leading up to and including the crucifixion and then around the resurrection.

                Third, I have invested significant time in listening to all sides of the religious debate. Those debates have included the Swiss Muslim academic Tariq Ramadan, Rabbi David Wolpe, the Christian author Frank Turek and the Christian apologist and analytical philosopher William Lane Craig. I’d particularly recommend the hours of material on YouTube involving variously Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, engaged on the other side of the debate.

                If you want to test information or debate with me James, I’m here for you buddy.

              • May 27th 2018 @ 12:40pm
                James Mampara said | May 27th 2018 @ 12:40pm | ! Report

                I thank you Neil,

                But I must demur that you did in fact write of the ‘contradictory nature of both the Old and New Testaments’. And as you said ‘why would anyone…?’ I must point out that not all Christian denominations emphasise the New Testament, let alone Jews.

                While I accede that your subsequent reasoning is sound, I must point out that you have completely missed the symbolic resonance of the Gospels. Again, some denominations only emphasise a literal interpretation, but it is both misinformed and disingenuous to group all adherents as the same.

                Lastly, I can appreciate that you have spent some time on the matter. Power to you. But you don’t need to denigrate all Christians and Jews, if you don’t agree with Folau’s interpretation. Nor is hyperbole, like ‘hypocritical’ and ‘confused’, at all rational. Now you might rejoin that it was the Christians who started it, or something to that effect, but then who will take the higher ground?

                Back at you brother — more door is always open.

              • May 28th 2018 @ 2:41pm
                Neil Back said | May 28th 2018 @ 2:41pm | ! Report

                James, you have to stop putting words into other peoples mouths and jumping to conclusions because of it. You did it claiming I was making references to the ages of the testaments when I wasn’t, and now you’re suggesting I’m commenting without even understanding the fundamentals of the origins of the two testaments and their advocates.

                I’m well aware of the differing adherence and interpretations of the broader Christian community. Not least because it only emphasizes my original observations around apparent confused and contradictory thinking. It’s bad enough that the books and gospels of both testaments contradict and are inconsistent within themselves.

                To your symbolic resonance point, well that just smacks to me of the typical retreat of the embarrassed believer who realises it’s becoming increasingly impossible to defend or believe the literal stories anymore. It’s neither news to me that there are believers in these camps, nor any surprise!

                Your claim of my denigration only really holds water if you think my comments are unfair. In the same breath, you’ve called them irrational. How they can be unfair when you yourself call my reasoning sound, is a moot point. Having said that, I’m generally unconcerned by any denigration charge when it comes to the beliefs of the religious. The more zealous they are, the more arrogant, dangerous or exclusive they become.

                As to rationality, I’ll unashamedly claim that for those of us on the evolution side of the debate, as opposed to my creationist friends. How anyone reads beyond the first book of Genesis still floors me.

              • May 30th 2018 @ 7:00pm
                James Mampara said | May 30th 2018 @ 7:00pm | ! Report

                Hi Neil,

                Far from putting words into your mouth, I quoted you directly. And though you claim that you made no reference to the age of the Testaments, my point stands that you’re still probably ignorant – just as I am – of many Bible passages. If you can’t, for instance, quote off by heart the Classical Hebrew for the Red Sea, then you’re probably just an arm-chair critic.

                Thus your point is plainly wrong that ‘the books and Gospels of both Testaments contradict and are inconsistent within themselves’, when you consider that the Jews completely repudiate the Gospels. The Pentateuch is an entity of itself, unaffected by any later text. So too is the Song of Solomon, which concerns a king’s courtship of a princess.

                Again, with regard to symbolism, you lack understanding if you lump all religions into one. My comment that your reasoning was sound applied only to a specific and limited instance, which becomes negligable when the rest of your argument is flawed. The Amish are not the same as Catholics. Though one might be fundamentalist, the other is not, hence the word catholic is synonymous with syncretic.

                Otherwise if you’re ‘unconcerned by any denigration charge’, and you don’t respect other people, then your world seems like a miserable place, wracked with unending strife. I made a prediction in my last post that ‘you might rejoin that it was the Christians who started it’, and hey presto my prophecy has come true. How do you like that for mysticism?

                For if you’re unable to understand that a truly rational project is one devoid of emotion, then you might also be unable to fathom that theology and science are two separate disciplines. At the same time, there are many Christians who ascribe to evolution.

              • June 1st 2018 @ 11:13am
                Neil Back said | June 1st 2018 @ 11:13am | ! Report

                Oh boy, this is only going to spiral from here. Quoting me directly and then making a spurious conclusion from it is, in fact, putting words into someone else’s mouth. That really shouldn’t be too difficult to understand, but it seems it is.

                However, you’re spot on assuming my ignorance of many Bible passages. If that makes me an armchair critic sobeit, but then I’d challenge you to question how many of the religious have actually read the entire Bible (let’s ignore the studied it critically question). It’s a question I frequently ask. Without actually keeping a tally, I’d estimate less than five percent answer in the affirmative. I spent some time in Poland years back, as you know, one of the most devout and practicing Catholic countries in the world. It wasn’t much better. Ask even basic questions as to how these texts were put together, the answers are depressing.

                I do however listen intently to those that have not only read but studied it as a life’s work. Take Bart Ehrman for example. Interesting guy and a very smart cookie. Once a devout, evangelical and conservative Christian, now an agnostic atheist (his description). He taught himself Hebrew to better understand the meaning of the Old Testament, and Greek to better understand how the oral stories of the New Testament had first been captured and translated into that foreign language, before then turning up through various iterations to the King James versions and then further version updates.

                The studies are there, by people far more qualified and eminently more devoted than you or I. Both testaments contradict themselves, not just each other. Not just in the hundreds of ways you’d logically expect, but in major details too, at the very source. It’s just a fact. One of the many I’ve picked up from my armchair James. I made no claim or observation on the adherences of the Jews or anyone else – it wasn’t the point I was making.

                Simply naming Pentateuch and the Song of Solomon really doesn’t impress me.

                Claiming I’m unaware of the divisions within religious belief is unfounded and condescending.

                Pointing out theology and science to be separate disciplines was unnecessary, and again condescending
                .
                Claiming I don’t respect other people is another erroneous conclusion and missing my point. I do not respect the beliefs of the religious. To repeat, I find them infantile, dangerous, fatally flawed and too often, quite arrogant as they put themselves at the centre of the known universe. To declare otherwise would be dishonest. You apparently haven’t the imagination to understand that I enjoy highly satisfying friendships with people of widely differing beliefs, without descending to ‘… a miserable place, wracked with unending strife’ (are you sending me to hell James? – you blokes just can’t give it a rest).

                Your debating style reminds me of one of the least satisfying religious commentators I’ve listened to, William Lane Craig. He too often claims to have demonstrated something he hasn’t and then takes that point to a spurious conclusion. If he had anything new to say, I’d struggle to listen.

                In that spirit, I’ll wish you the very best James, and may your god go with you.

              • June 1st 2018 @ 5:14pm
                James Mampara said | June 1st 2018 @ 5:14pm | ! Report

                Again my conclusion was rather to say that, in fact, it was your statement that was spurious – spurious insofar as monotheism represents an unbroken tradition, with Jesus just a mid-way point. It was simply laziness to represent it in isolation, and I called you out.

                So, sure, it’s a fair point that many religious people may be ignorant of their own scripture. But by the same token, many atheists are completely ignorant of scientific formulations. I mean, how many atheists can enumerate the meaning of ‘e=mc(2)’? Can you? Or can you present the full mathematical process of the Special Theory of Relativity? If not, then it can only be completely gullible to regard Einstein as a genius. Otherwise, by your deduction, Einstein must be some sort of prophet.

                For ultimately every person is bound by ideology, while rather it is human nature to be arrogant or infantile. Thus there are some atheists who are level-headed and circumpect individuals, just as there are some religious adherents who are also level-headed and circumspect. But it is foolish to assume that because you belong to one group, whatever it is, then you are automatically free from arrogance.

                Now you might say that it was unfounded and condescending to claim that you were unaware of the divisions between religious belief. But you were guilty before of generalising, when you made your remark about 2000 years of growing up. Nor is it a concern of mine if you find my remarks condescending. If you don’t respect the beliefs of others, and deign to condescend to them, then you must be prepared to be condescended to.

                As for the idea of an imagination, you must now be contradicting yourself if you include imagination in your rational paradigm. Misery isn’t an abstract. And it doesn’t take too much brains to believe that people can live in misery through bullying and abuse. Moreover atheists succumb to suicide in much higher numbers than the religious. Go figure.

                Personally, I’ve never heard of William Lane Craig. I can only retort that your debating style reminds me of Al Gore – he warns of global warming, and then he blasts his generator. Having said that, thanks for your well wishes. The same to you.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 11:26am
              jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:26am | ! Report

              What is hypocritical? Being on the cover of the gay magazine and publishing the recent comments?

              • May 25th 2018 @ 1:44pm
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:44pm | ! Report

                He is actively supporting and condemning gays. How can that possibly not be hypocritical. I cant even think of a more clearer example.

                Are people just dumb or what?

              • May 25th 2018 @ 2:25pm
                Birdy said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:25pm | ! Report

                QANTAS

              • May 26th 2018 @ 1:24pm
                Jameswm said | May 26th 2018 @ 1:24pm | ! Report

                It’s not as simple as that and you know it.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 12:02pm
            Kane said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:02pm | ! Report

            The Asemblies of God religion treats the Bible as fact. But Folau only some of it. He decided that not using Sunday as a day of rest isn’t a sin in fact that playing Sundays is an expression of his faith.

            That’s like me committing a crime weekly claiming is an expression of the law not a crime.

            Fine if he wakes up Monday morning feeling or expressing sincere regret or remorse about his sins, but if he intends to do it all over again next week is it really?

      • May 25th 2018 @ 9:37am
        John said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:37am | ! Report

        Folau has dominated NZ opposition this season while under enormous scrutiny. It’s a non issue – I doubt he even knows who Brad Weber is.

        • May 25th 2018 @ 10:47am
          Jacko said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:47am | ! Report

          Total domination…..1 win…..so Total domination all season for that 1 game tho…total…

        • Roar Rookie

          May 25th 2018 @ 10:52am
          Paulo said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:52am | ! Report

          If he doesn’t know who Brad Weber is, that is more a comment on Folau than Weber. Agreed he has had some good form lately, but needs to be consistent with his impact. Went missing in the 2nd half against the Crusaders.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 11:07am
            John said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:07am | ! Report

            Did many people know who Brad Weber was before his tweet?

            The only time the two players will ever be mentioned in the same sentence is in reference to a social media post.

            Speaks for itself.

            • Roar Rookie

              May 25th 2018 @ 12:44pm
              Paulo said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:44pm | ! Report

              Being mentioned in the same sentence as each other? What relevance does have to do with anything?

              Given Brad Weber has played for the chiefs for a number of years, I’m sure a few people know who he is. He did make an AB appearance also. Unfortunately playing in the same position as Smith and TJ has meant he has had to take a back seat for most of his career.

              If the Tahs do any opposition research I would think they would look at the half back, hence my comment about Folau not knowing who Weber was more a comment on him than Weber. This is a rubbish conjecture though as neither of us is privy to what Folau knows or doesn’t know.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 2:23pm
              bluffboy said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:23pm | ! Report

              For all those people out there who don’t know Mrs Webbers little boy Brad.
              He will be the halfback in the match that make the other 2 that aren’t in the Webber family tree look second rate.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 3:26pm
              Two shades said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:26pm | ! Report

              If you don’t know who Brad Webber is what are you doing commenting about rugby…go and learn a bit and come back and than contribute to the discussion! Your comment is ridiculous otherwise!

              • May 25th 2018 @ 3:52pm
                John said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:52pm | ! Report

                Apologies Two Shades, I’m sure he’s a giant in Waikato.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 4:27pm
                bluffboy said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:27pm | ! Report

                The funny thing shades is, Izzy was really only world famous in Australia.
                If it wasn’t for making ludicrous statements and marrying Maria for most people it would be “Izzy who”. His average ability and I say average because of his inconsistency would hardly take him to world class level. But I suppose that is the state of rugby here, he may be the best of a bunch of rubbish, not IMO, so he needs to be protected.

              • May 26th 2018 @ 8:54am
                Drongo said | May 26th 2018 @ 8:54am | ! Report

                Folau is known the world over in rugby circles. This Webber guy is a nobody with an inflated opinion of his opinion.

              • May 26th 2018 @ 11:51am
                Jacko said | May 26th 2018 @ 11:51am | ! Report

                Webber has achieved something Folau will never be…and would never ever possibly have been good enough ….Webber is forever an ALL BLACK

            • Roar Rookie

              May 25th 2018 @ 11:09pm
              Kirky said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:09pm | ! Report

              John! Fill us in mate in what games Folau dominated any Kiwi teams in? I haven’t seen it myself but you seem to know something!

      • May 26th 2018 @ 12:03am
        double agent said | May 26th 2018 @ 12:03am | ! Report

        Think Will Knight is having a major case of wishful thinking.

    • May 25th 2018 @ 6:50am
      RTT said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:50am | ! Report

      Did Weber tweet venom when his own teammates at the chiefs infamously brought the game into disrepute attacking a stripper and making homophobic slurs?

      After all his family members he quoted not only were they gay they were also women?

      Did tj come out against julien savea when he was arrested for domestic violence?

      • May 25th 2018 @ 8:12am
        jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:12am | ! Report

        Fair points.

        • May 25th 2018 @ 8:30am
          Aussikiwi said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:30am | ! Report

          Really? Apart from the fact that in both those cases (each misrepresented by RTT by the way) the perpetrators expressed remorse, and in Savea’s case, following Savea’s tearful press conference, his wife asked that people respect their privacy. whereas Folau and his supporters doubled down on his right to preach publicly that gays are sinners who are going straight to hell?

        • Roar Rookie

          May 25th 2018 @ 12:50pm
          piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:50pm | ! Report

          How are they fair points?

          At best it’s irrelevant vitriol

        • Roar Rookie

          May 25th 2018 @ 3:30pm
          atlas said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:30pm | ! Report

          Fair? 2013 a young Weber was warming the bench on occasion for Otago while studying in Dunedin; maybe he did tweet, and no one read it. You don’t know, do you? But if it suits you … dribble on.

      • May 25th 2018 @ 8:32am
        Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:32am | ! Report

        No, because he didnt need to. EVERYONE knew they were wrong. Here Folau doesnt think so. Thats the difference.

        • May 25th 2018 @ 9:44am
          jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:44am | ! Report

          So Weber speaks publicly about people who did the wrong thing but didn’t own it? Is that it?

          What’s worse – beating up a woman or stating your religious views on heaven and hell? Weber has issues playing with the latter type of person, but not the former? Seems convenient.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 10:31am
            Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:31am | ! Report

            No james, whats worse, beating up a woman or going to hell? I’d suggest the implication is the latter. Youre just watering the content down.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 10:48am
              Roger said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:48am | ! Report

              TBH from my experiences with god botherers I’d rather hang out with the lot that aren’t going to heaven.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 10:53am
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:53am | ! Report

                Absolutely…! Sounds where all the funs at…

              • May 25th 2018 @ 11:33am
                jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:33am | ! Report

                That doesn’t narrow it down much though…

            • May 25th 2018 @ 11:28am
              jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:28am | ! Report

              That’s not right Tman. We’re comparing what Folau did with someone guilty of domestic violence.
              All Folau did was express views.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 11:34am
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:34am | ! Report

                they don’t get it,

                legal views, legal words that may offend or hurt someone’s feelings are worse criminal assault.

                I am glad the criminal justice system isn’t on their side.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 11:47am
                Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:47am | ! Report

                Pretty surprised to see Taylorman’s comments on this. I would have thought he/she would condemn both behaviours.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 1:13pm
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:13pm | ! Report

                Pete, if everyone in the world held the same belief as Folau, gays would be perse?cuted the world over. Hung, drawn and quartered.

                It is that we are lucky we are not all that stupi>d that they are not.

                What possible good does Folau do in verbalising then confirming that view.

                None. Zero.

                Ok to say these things in the confines of a church where such ramblings are ‘contained’ and usually dismissed by non believers but to say them as one of the highest profile rugby players on the planet with a twitter following of over 300,000 people is NOT GOOD.

                Personally I think he should hold a forum and discuss this with the gay community, throw the ideas and thinkings around, then rethink his comments.

                At least he would have an informed view of the impact of his statements.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 1:13pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:13pm | ! Report

                Fionn and PeterK. Regardless of whether Weber commented on other incidents he is entitled to respond to Folau, like anyone else.

                The proposition that Weber or anyone else has to publicly condemn every past player transgression (even where there has already been profuse apology and punishment) before they are entitled to publicly disagree with Folau’s homophobic statements is absurd.

                As a matter of logic, then, anyone who wants to disagree with Folau now has to publicly condemn James Slipper?

                PeterK, I’m afraid it is you who repeatedly show your unconscious bias rather than logic and facts, on this issue. Show me where anyone has said Folau’s conduct is worse than a criminal assault?

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 1:23pm
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:23pm | ! Report

                Aussiekiwi – yet again another misrepresentation, but I have come to expect that from you.

                I have never said Webber was not entitled to his views, nor have I ever stated that someone needs to call out every single misdeed by everyone to be entitled to call out any that they wish to.

                I was making comment that taylorman did indeed view comments by folau as worse.

                No james, whats worse, beating up a woman or going to hell? I’d suggest the implication is the latter.

                Taylorman – i have never defended the content of his comments.

                If everyone did believe as folau then gays would be asked / pressured to repent, not hung drawn and quartered. I have never heard of folau expressing or wishing any violence on gays, nor expressing any hate towards them.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 1:28pm
                Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:28pm | ! Report

                I never denied Taylorman’s right to comment on this issue, so that’s irrelevant.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 1:49pm
                Ralph said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:49pm | ! Report

                “if everyone in the world held the same belief as Folau, gays would be perse?cuted the world over. Hung, drawn and quartered”

                You are hysterical.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 2:31pm
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:31pm | ! Report

                Really? Consider the state of mind of those that lead to the camps in the 40s in Europe. Blindly following a leader to a false belief

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 2:38pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:38pm | ! Report

                You’ve only got to look at what’s happening to the Rohyinga in Burma to see what happens when everyone agrees one group are less than human.

                Or look at what happened when Isis took over areas containing groups they considered inferior.

                Hell, look at the USA with it’s splitting up families and deportations and the proposed camps.

                People like to imagine it would take something drastic for us to end up in that position, but it’s a million little cuts, not one big one, that kill,

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 3:33pm
                Ralph said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:33pm | ! Report

                Yes, really.

                Just because you can show it happened once, in one place, it does not logically follow that therefore it will always happen, everywhere else.

                Almost the entirety of history stands as witness against that idea.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:11pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:11pm | ! Report

                Yes, really.

                Just because you can show it happened once, in one place, it does not logically follow that therefore it will always happen, everywhere else

                i just listed 3

                you could add mandatory detention of refugees or stolen generations as things that have happened in Australia as things that happen when a class of people is considered ‘less than’

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:16pm
                Ralph said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:16pm | ! Report

                3 in 7000 years of recorded history.

                What a hero.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:24pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:24pm | ! Report

                Yes, only 3 times in 7000 years has any group been persecuted in the history of mankind…

                I thought better of you Ralph

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:38pm
                Ralph said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:38pm | ! Report

                The absurdity is so great it didn’t simply didn’t deserve a lot more.

                Given the sheer vast scale of human suffering in all of history, picking out a tiny people group is a huge loss of perspective to begin with.

                Then to add absolute statements (persecuted ‘the world over’ no less) about what will and won’t happen, because of about beliefs he can barely articulate with any accuracy (what Folau believes), through an event that will never happen (everyone believes it).

                Yeah, it’s hysteria.

                There is very little discernable reason involved.

                And you finding three examples add about the same weight as a dust mite on the sun to that barely discernible reason. Using this as a measure we could might be able to claim just about every tiny group on the planet is subject to persecution.

                Maybe Taylorman had a bad day, who knows. He said something hysterical, I called it. Shrug. Big weekend of rugby ahead – yee ha.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:44pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:44pm | ! Report

                What on Earth are you talking about?

                The world’s a big place so too bad if you’re suffering?
                Others have had it worse so toughen up?

                if the number 3 is what’s bothering you (I’ve actually listed 5 if you’d bothered to read it), go google it, I was just talking off the top of my head.

                I’m struggling to understand what your point is here.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 6:24pm
                Drongo said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:24pm | ! Report

                Hilarious. The Kiwis line up to defend a wife badger and condemn Folau for posting an extract from the Christian Bible.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 6:35pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:35pm | ! Report

                Wait, you can’t stand gays getting married but it’s cool to marry badgers?

            • May 25th 2018 @ 1:36pm
              SP said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:36pm | ! Report

              “No james, whats worse, beating up a woman or going to hell? I’d suggest the implication is the latter.”

              You think going to place that doesn’t exist is worse than inflicting violence on someone?

              Who was the wag that said NZ had moved out of the 1950’s?

              • May 25th 2018 @ 2:39pm
                Jacko said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:39pm | ! Report

                What do Wives and girlfriends have to do with this?

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 2:54pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:54pm | ! Report

                Probably the NZ president hey mate?

            • May 25th 2018 @ 6:51pm
              MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:51pm | ! Report

              Are you serious , you think someone saying the act of sex being a sin, according to the bible is worse than domestic violence?

              We live in 2018 mate ! You must live in the darks. Please show us the support for anti-gays as a result of his post …..

              Domestic violence is the lowest form of cowerdice ! You know it happens is gay relationships also.

              • May 26th 2018 @ 11:49am
                Jacko said | May 26th 2018 @ 11:49am | ! Report

                MH01 that is a big issue you have there…..What was said was that the wife bashing was publically shamed…punished by the sport and the law and everyone condemmed it at the time…..The Folau comments have had no punishments metered out so there was a need for Weber to publically disagree with the comments based on his own beliefs and his family situation…..
                No one needed to comment on the wife bashing as it got ALL the negatives it deserved…..The gay comments got the commenter ZERO punishments at all….hence the comments by Webber and many other rugby personal around the world…yet you only managed to see the webber 1 and wanted to hate on some kiwi’s….you failed to see the Aus players comments…the Welsh, English, Irish and french rugby personalities comments…just Webbers apparently

          • Roar Guru

            May 25th 2018 @ 11:11am
            Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:11am | ! Report

            Why does one have to be worse for them not both to be wrong and repugnant.

            Perhaps Webber learnt through not speaking out, perhaps the cultural change at the Chiefs and NZR, as a result, meant he didn’t feel the need to.

            He only castigated Folau after the second tweet.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 11:33am
              jameswm said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:33am | ! Report

              Wal of course they can both be wrong. I think what Folau says is complete rubbish, but that’s not what we’re discussing. I think he’s a respectful, humble guy, but misled.

              His comments don’t worry me in the slightest and I don’t find them repugnant – but I’m not a young gay guy struggling to come to terms with it all, and being an atheist I’m unconcerned by any comments on heaven and hell.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:12pm
                Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:12pm | ! Report

                A belief in Hell is not needed for the comments to still cause hurt though.
                Society has not been great at accepting gay people and as such ask any of them the angst and fear of telling parents, peers, colleagues of their sexuality.
                Heap on top of that a post buy as you rightly say a respectful, humble guy that condemns them to eternal damnation and for some, the effect can be devastating.

          • Roar Guru

            May 25th 2018 @ 11:12am
            PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:12am | ! Report

            jameswm – it is the crazy priorities of the sjw now.

            Words are worse than physically attacking people.

            Despite only the latter being a criminal offense in this context.

            So imagine an AB attacks people and puts them in hospital but because everyone knows that was wrong it is ok to not say anything against it, and of course everyone is ok to play on the same team as them.

            Where is the line on that? Rape, beating up children, manslaughter?

            Are any of these offences worse than words than are legal and not in any way criminal activity?

            • May 25th 2018 @ 1:21pm
              Aussikiwi said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:21pm | ! Report

              That is the worst straw person argument I have ever seen from you PeterK. People make mistakes, express repentance and accept their punishment. To accept that and move on is not condoning or trivialising their behaviour.

              Folau is still maintaining the righteousness of his homophobic statements, and in that context people are going to continue to disagree with him.

              To argue that there is some kind of equivilence between these two situations is intellectually dishonest.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 1:28pm
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:28pm | ! Report

                no the defense made was because everyone knows something is wrong then you don’t need to make a comment against it.

                Nothing was said about being punished, and repentance, and acceptence.

                But feel free to once again not read through thread in your haste to rebut me.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 1:53pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:53pm | ! Report

                But re the Savea case, what then is its relevance? Why do you say there is there any need for a “defence”? It is said to be relevant to Weber’s right to make comments in response to Folau that he didn’t publicly condemn Savea. I am saying there is no relevant comparison. For those reasons, amongst others.

                And on the fauna argument, agree that aborigines were not formally classified under the Fauna legislation. To be as pedantic as you are, that wasn’t what I said. They were not classified as people for most purposes under law prior to the referendum. So what were they treated as? The point is the same. It was but one example of the many views which are accepted at the time, but cease to be acceptable as social values change.

                I hope and expect that Folau’s views will go the same way.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 2:40pm
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:40pm | ! Report

                Yea Petes been on this comparison crusade for ages now, deflecting an normalising the real issue through the thoughts and acts of others. Doesnt work. Other subjects arent relevant.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 2:42pm
                Jacko said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:42pm | ! Report

                poor peter….everyone misreads him……He’s just so misunderstood

              • May 25th 2018 @ 5:03pm
                James Mampara said | May 25th 2018 @ 5:03pm | ! Report

                I think I understand Peter when he questions Weber’s consistency, and ours. To quote the Bible: ‘Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.’ Ie. if Weber wants to be a judge, then he must judge everything. It is not right for him to pick and choose as it suits him. That would be corruption.

                On other hand, Folau’s remarks, or the underlying meaning, will likely never be expunged, especially since Folau’s conception of God may translate to happiness. Conversely, Hell may translate to misery. For example, sodomy is at once unsanitary, and cuts off the reproductive instinct, perhaps the greatest tragedy. Society has no place in the absence of that fulfilment, because we are all self responsible. Thus it is possible to love someone, and still tell them that their behaviour is harmful. This notion stands the test of time.

                As for the fauna thing, that is an example of irrelevant deflecting.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 26th 2018 @ 8:33am
                Paulo said | May 26th 2018 @ 8:33am | ! Report

                Peter plays word gymnastics, implying and inferring points then denying he actually said the point he made because he didn’t specifically state it. Don’t try to call him out on it, there is no point.

                This whole deflection about domestic violence is right out of the Trump playbook, is called “but what about” and it distracts and derails the specific dialog about the issue at hand. Look how much time is spent talking about domestic violence. We all agree it’s terrible, no one has defended it. It’s why there wasn’t a large outcry on social as everyone agrees and no one was defending it.

                People are agreeing with or defending Folaus right to say things, that is why people spoke out about this, because there is an actual discord about the issue. We all agree that dom violence is bad. Just like any crime. This is completely different so please stop conflating the two issues. It does nothing to help the conversation about Folau and his actions and there ramifications.

    • May 25th 2018 @ 6:51am
      MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:51am | ! Report

      Nothing more than Weber virtue signalling.

      Why are people making this into such a huge issue?

      The lesson here is that sportsman , including Weber should shut up if they don’t understand the issue at hand . Folau quoted the bible !

      Though the truth does not matter when the media and righteous personalities are driving an agenda .

      Anyway , to this article – complete non event .

      More interested in Weber’s views on urinating in pubs…. cause he was not disgusted by that ….. pathetic !

      • Roar Guru

        May 25th 2018 @ 9:02am
        Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:02am | ! Report

        The lesson here is that sportsman , including Weber should shut up if they don’t understand the issue at hand . Folau quoted the bible !

        If Folau had done that at the very start we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

      • Roar Rookie

        May 25th 2018 @ 11:21am
        piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:21am | ! Report

        You can literally use the phrase ‘virtue signalling’ about any opinion you disagree with.

        Its meaning is so broadly applicable that it’s actually meaningless.

        • May 25th 2018 @ 11:30am
          Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:30am | ! Report

          Piru, I do think it is actually a useful analytical term to describe some forms of behaviour – especially those on online forums, and especially those on platforms such as Facebook when one tries to get likes from strangers.

          However, I do also agree it is overused. It is abundantly clear that not everyone who criticised Folau’s comments are virtue signallers. Many people feel passionately about the issue. My gay friend who was raised a strict Protestant really struggled with his sexuality, and if one of his rugby heroes had said he was going to hell I think he would have found it harder again.

          Although I do think it is interesting that this is the particular issue that has seemed to really get traction amongst Kiwi rugby players, and not various other ones involving Kiwi rugby players.

          • Roar Rookie

            May 25th 2018 @ 12:17pm
            piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:17pm | ! Report

            What I mean Fionn, is that in the way it is commonly used now is simply a way to discredit a comment or opinion without having to address it.

            You can simply say “You’re only saying that because you want to show off your opinion” – that statement can be used to counter pretty much anything anyone ever says.

            It’s universal because it doesn’t matter what was originally stated, it goes to the feelings of the responder, not the comment itself – ie ‘I believe your reasons for saying this are self serving’.

            Just another in a long list of meaningless phrases thrown around.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 12:20pm
              Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:20pm | ! Report

              Piru, you’re right, and it is definitely overused.

              But I do think that it is nevertheless a useful term in situations.

              Like most useful terms, however, it is massively overused and has lost the authority it once had.

            • Roar Guru

              May 25th 2018 @ 1:51pm
              Ralph said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:51pm | ! Report

              What really matters is whether it is true in this instance.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 2:00pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:00pm | ! Report

                What really matters is whether it is true in this instance.

                Why does it matter at all?

                No one knows the truth except Weber, did he make comment because he wanted to defend the side of his relatives or did he just want to tell everyone how virtuous he is?

                At the end of the day his comment would be the same

                See? Meaningless

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 3:30pm
                Ralph said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:30pm | ! Report

                Sorry, I meant in regard to this phrase ‘virtue signalling’.

                You objected to the use of the phrase and I was just pointing out that whether it is used is less important than if it had been used accurately in this particular instance.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:13pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:13pm | ! Report

                ok fair enough. IAs I alluded to though, how can you ever be sure it’s being used properly?

                It’s an attack on someone’s motives for saying something – they are unlikely to admit they are just ‘showing off’.

                I still think it’s a lazy buzzword to throw out when you don’t want to make a proper argument

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:18pm
                Ralph said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:18pm | ! Report

                Oh sure, you are probably right there, kind of the nature of a forum I guess.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 4:34pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:34pm | ! Report

                Definitely, but once the conversation devolves to that level there’s no point continuing

              • May 25th 2018 @ 5:14pm
                James Mampara said | May 25th 2018 @ 5:14pm | ! Report

                Piru, I seem to remember that you recently quoted the term ‘snarl term’. In that same thread, someone wrote ‘dog whistle’, and you didn’t object. Why is one term more loaded, when they all achieve the same rhetorical function?

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 5:36pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 5:36pm | ! Report

                I don’t recall ever saying snarl term to be honest.

                I don’t know, perhaps I didn’t see it, didn’t appreciate the similarity or didn’t have time?

          • Roar Rookie

            May 25th 2018 @ 12:19pm
            piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:19pm | ! Report

            Although I do think it is interesting that this is the particular issue that has seemed to really get traction amongst Kiwi rugby players, and not various other ones involving Kiwi rugby players.

            Well the Aussie rugby players have had to step lightly I suppose, but it’s hardly been restricted or concentrated in NZ rugby – Gareth Edwards and Nigel Evans have both jumped on as has the NRL boss.

            • May 25th 2018 @ 12:21pm
              Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:21pm | ! Report

              Piru, I mean that New Zealand rugby players have decided that this is the issue that they want to criticise, as opposed to the various issues that have occurred with New Zealand players.

              I know it is easier to criticise someone in another group (in this case, Australian rugby) as opposed to your own (New Zealand rugby). And so I do wonder whether we would have heard much from Kiwi rugby players if had it been a Kiwi that had done exactly what Folau did.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:38pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:38pm | ! Report

                I suspect not, but as I said, the Aussie players have to step lightly, he’s not only a team mate but the highest profile player in the country.

                If Kieran Read had said something similar I’m sure we’d have seen equal outrage here

              • May 25th 2018 @ 12:40pm
                Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:40pm | ! Report

                ‘If Kieran Read had said something similar I’m sure we’d have seen equal outrage here’

                I’m really not at all sure that I agree with that based on how Kiwi fans have responded to previous transgressions by Kiwi players, and how the other Kiwi players have reacted. But I guess we can’t know so it is all hypothetical.

              • May 26th 2018 @ 6:33am
                Taylorman said | May 26th 2018 @ 6:33am | ! Report

                Still dont get it Fionn. Which if those trangressions was the person saying they didnt do anything wrong? They were all dumb, guilty and knew it. Going on and on about thise IS flogging a dead horse because everyones in agreement.

                Folau thinks hes right, hasnt said or done anything wrong. Thats why is not a dead horse.

                It hasnt been properly dealt with. And there IS definitely more to come.

                That is how it works. Like it or not.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:45pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:45pm | ! Report

                I meant from the Aussies Fionn

                you know it’s true

              • May 25th 2018 @ 12:46pm
                Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:46pm | ! Report

                Hmmm, perhaps. But I do think that Australia pays relatively less attention to events in New Zealand than vice versa. I guess I really don’t know, and you could well be right.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:51pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:51pm | ! Report

                In general, yes

                In rugby, no

              • May 25th 2018 @ 1:39pm
                SP said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:39pm | ! Report

                “But I do think that Australia pays relatively less attention to events in New Zealand than vice versa.”

                Most Aussies couldn’t name the NZ President or even locate it on a map.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 1:53pm
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:53pm | ! Report

                I cant even name the NZ President and I’m a kiwi 🙂

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 1:56pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:56pm | ! Report

                Most Aussies couldn’t name the NZ President or even locate it on a map.

                Most Aussie rugby fans could name you a dozen All Blacks though

                Hard to see what the Aus education system’s failings have to do with anything

            • Roar Guru

              May 25th 2018 @ 12:27pm
              PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:27pm | ! Report

              but you ignore the lack of outrage by kiwi rugby players when their own behave badly.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:37pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:37pm | ! Report

                I make comment on things that interest me

                I don’t need to register an opinion on everything that ever happens in order to have the right to do so.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 1:15pm
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:15pm | ! Report

                I was echoing (unknowingly when I posted) Fionn but more succintly.

                Piru, I mean that New Zealand rugby players have decided that this is the issue that they want to criticise, as opposed to the various issues that have occurred with New Zealand players.

                Not directed at you personally in making commentary.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 1:31pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:31pm | ! Report

                I imagine they too, comment on the things that interest them and that they feel comfortable speaking about.

                It’s a lot easier to assert your contrary opinion against an opponent than a team mate, you don’t have to play with or even like them. Bear in mind though we have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.
                Maybe they have all spoken about it in private?

                Perhaps this is the same reason we don’t see Pocock getting stuck into Folau in public although we know he holds an opposing view – they have direct access and can sort things out without it being thrown around on social media.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 26th 2018 @ 8:42am
                Paulo said | May 26th 2018 @ 8:42am | ! Report

                It may have something to do with internal regulations. If my employer stuffs up or a co-worker, I can’t go on social and rip them up, but if some other person outside my work does the same, I’m free to comment. And again, this is all deflection from the main point. Trying to gain morally superiority over dom violence that we all agree is wrong and terrible.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 2:44pm
            Jacko said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:44pm | ! Report

            Although I do think it is interesting that this is the particular issue that has seemed to really get traction amongst Kiwi rugby players, and not various other ones involving Kiwi rugby players.

            it was commented on by Aussie, welsh, English, Irish and French players as well Fionn but only Kiwi players are getting any blame on this site

            • May 25th 2018 @ 4:36pm
              Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:36pm | ! Report

              Not the point, Jacko…

              • May 26th 2018 @ 11:55am
                Jacko said | May 26th 2018 @ 11:55am | ! Report

                Haha so I see

        • May 25th 2018 @ 4:49pm
          MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:49pm | ! Report

          Hey Piru.

          Virtue signaling is not applicable in most debates. It only relates to social issues around inclusivity , equality etc .

          So …. in Webber’s case, if he posted regularly about his concerns about inclusivity in rugby, I could not use it against him. When he posts out of the blue….. in my opinion , fair game .

          • Roar Rookie

            May 25th 2018 @ 5:39pm
            piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 5:39pm | ! Report

            So you’re saying it’s more about the context of when or how the issue is brought up than the motivation to post it? I guess it makes sense in that situation – still I’d argue that Weber was responding to what was at that time Folau’s second post on the same issue in a short period.

            You could argue that Folau’s post was virtue signalling to his church mates. There is evidence to support that he doesn’t actually feel that way (his appearances at the Bingham cup for example).

            Could it not apply to him also?

            • May 25th 2018 @ 6:28pm
              MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:28pm | ! Report

              Completely. Religion is the oldest form of virtue signaling – where you try to show you are the best/biggest etc etc believer – for show and attention .

              As a catholic , if you ask me , “in your religion, do gays go to hell” “I’d even quote what folau said “. You ask me the follow up question “do you believe that” . Not at all – the bible is just a guide ….. a rationale person will not take things written hundred of years ago as fact! – given they are not facts but “stories” . Happy to tell you what my “guide book” states, but I don’t believe it. Some of my closest friends are gay, and my religion has zero negative influence how we interact . It does though teach me many many good things in the way I accept people and treat them.

    • May 25th 2018 @ 7:07am
      Milan said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:07am | ! Report

      MH01. ‘Webber should shut up’

      Stop being a clown. Your on one hand saying folau has got the right to freedom of speech but then insinuating that Weber does not have that same right as he should ‘shut up’. Pure idiocy from you.

      P.s your man folau would not have quoted the said bible unless he believed the same. If you can’t get that through your head then i suggest you don’t bother commenting (and that’s my freedom of speech)

      PPS. Just because it says it in the bible or any other religious book does not automatically make something acceptable. If you can’t accept that then there’s a place waiting for you in the asylum if you’re not already in there.

      • May 25th 2018 @ 7:20am
        MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:20am | ! Report

        Milan – well done champ . I see comprehension is not your strong point . “Sportsman” includes Folau.

        And do you understand that quoting something, does not mean you fully accept it .

        Hate to tell you mate, what is writing in the bible or other religious doctrine is acceptable . Might not be acceptable to you , but frankly the laws don’t care about your feelings .

        Given you could not understand what I wrote and Misinterpreted into your agenda , Touché regarding commenting , but hey that is my freedom of speech….

        • May 25th 2018 @ 7:25am
          Milan said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:25am | ! Report

          That’s right mate, nobody can understand what you wrote because you are above the rest of us. Such an intelligent human being you are MH01.

          Believe what you want to believe.

          I am happy to walk around believing in inclusion and equality for all. Maybe one day you will be on the other side of it and if you are then don’t expect a long line of people to be helping you.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 7:37am
            MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:37am | ! Report

            Inclusion and equality includes religious views…..

            People who scream about inclusion and equality tend to be the biggest oppressors of freedom of speach and guilty of virtue signaling.

            Practicle example – Meghan Markle – hailed for virtue signalling she is a feminist and is for equality . If you disagree your get labelled as being anti equal rights and anti equality . Though…. she married a man to gain her status , and she is the furthest on the scale when it comes to equality to the rest of us .

            • May 25th 2018 @ 8:08am
              Aussikiwi said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:08am | ! Report

              Wow you are off the planet.

              Anyone who expresses views with which you disagree is a virtue signaller.

              The virtue signallers should let the issue drop and to make your point you have posted 58 posts already on this thread alone explaining why Folau was right and everyone who criticised him is wrong.

              Plus a Gratuitous and completely off topic attack on Megan Markle, who is apparently not allowed to express her feminism because that is virtue signalling. Fine upstanding conservative like yourself are apparently being hounded and pilloried for disagreeing with her (wtf, care to give some examples?)

              Welcome to the Virtue Signallers Club, Megan, it includes all those who get attacked by the rabid right for publicly supporting values of fairness, equality and compassion.

              And no, inclusion doesn’t mean inclusion of the intolerance and bigotry which are practiced by some under the pretext of religion. Any more than it includes racism under the guise of politics such as the white Australia policy, or treating aborignal people as fauna. Thecountry grew out of those, and it will grow out of the religious and other remnants of homophobia too, one day.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 8:19am
                MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:19am | ! Report

                Please point out where I said folau was right and everyone was wrong. .

                I said it’s a dead horse . And sportsman should shut up .

                Flog the dead horse bit more mate ! And well done, you upped the stakes by adding racism.

                Drop the agenda ! It’s a broken record .

              • May 25th 2018 @ 8:33am
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:33am | ! Report

                And I say the horse has bolted…who’s right here? You, or just you…hilarious.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 8:40am
                Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:40am | ! Report

                Yes for someone who wants to stop flogging the dead horse he sure has his whip out. More posts than anyone…:-)

              • May 25th 2018 @ 4:54pm
                MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 4:54pm | ! Report

                Taylorman – that is rich coming from you . Having read the roar for years, you sure can flog a dead horse . And trust me , you post far more on each thread than me 😉

              • May 25th 2018 @ 8:43am
                Peter said | May 25th 2018 @ 8:43am | ! Report

                Dear Aussikiwi, off this topic but fully on your “treating aboriginal people as fauna.” I would love to see you provide evidence of legislation, regulation, whatever, that included this. Know what? You can’t. The most you will find is a Western Australian government department that once had responsibilities in relation to Aboriginal people and wildlife. It is not unusual to find departments with responsibilities that have nothing to do with each other.
                My comment has nothing to do with how Indigenous people have been treated. It has everything to do with identifying rubbish for what it is and sticking with fact rather than promulgating myths..

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 11:19am
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:19am | ! Report

                aussiekiwi – factcheck has disproven the oft repeated claim of aboriginals as fauna.

                http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-20/fact-check-flora-and-fauna-1967-referendum/9550650

                Care to admit your claim is a myth and you are wrong on this aspect?

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 11:27am
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:27am | ! Report

                inclusion seems to tolerate r@cism against whites and sexism against men though, in many cases not only tolerates it but propagates it.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 11:45am
                Fionn said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:45am | ! Report

                Those terms have been redefined by sections of society (mostly sections of the Left, but not always) to refer to alleged global systems that promote discrimination and power imbalances are opposed to the traditioanl dictionary definitions.

                It means that things that were once covered under those terms (I don’t want to get moderated) no longer count according to the people who embrace the new definitions.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:03pm
                Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:03pm | ! Report

                PeterK

                Whilst the facts on Fauna myth are pretty clear, I’d hardly be using that as a way to shine the light on Australia’s history with indigenous people.
                What the 1967 referendum did ensure that individual states could create policy solely based on indigenous peoples. And some of those policies were horrific.

                Around one in twelve Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander adults are part of the Stolen Generations
                Wages were allowed to be kept from employees, freedom of movement was restricted
                A survey of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in Victoria found that 97 percent had experienced racism within the last year.3 Two out of every three people had experienced eight or more incidences a year

                When your race of people have been denied basic human rights, had their children removed from families, had land dispossessed, imprisonment rates are 15 times higher, live on average 10 year less and gettin gworse, suffer diseases eradicated in the rest of the first world.
                Then perhaps you have a right to comment on intolerance experienced by Heterosexual White Males. Becuase until then our issues look pretty damn pathetic in comaprison

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:14pm
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:14pm | ! Report

                rubbish wal – unfairness , or bias or intolerance against any group based on inherent characteristics is plain wrong.

                White men should be treated fairly as any other group with the same rights.

                It is totally wrong that past grieviences or wrongs of previous generations or even current ones means prejudice is fine and ok to another group.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 12:15pm
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 12:15pm | ! Report

                Fionn – I know that , and it means open slather of intolerant and prejudiced comments against one group are acceptable by the sjw and their sympathisers.

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 2:14pm
                Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:14pm | ! Report

                White men should be treated fairly as any other group with the same rights.

                And that sums up the whole argument. Like it or not White men have been, and continue to be the main transgressors when it comes to poor or unequal treatment of others both in Australia and NZ or any other “Anglo Celtic country”. I personally would be aiming the bar little higher than equality to the current treatment any minority group receives.

                To try and defend any other position is to ignore the current and persistent inequality for Women, LGBTI, and any ethnic minority.

              • Roar Rookie

                May 25th 2018 @ 2:18pm
                piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:18pm | ! Report

                White men should be treated fairly as any other group with the same rights.

                Maybe if other groups were treated as fairly as white men we might start getting somewhere

              • May 25th 2018 @ 5:04pm
                MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 5:04pm | ! Report

                Hey Piru.

                There is no excuse for not having fair treatment of all people . Be you white, brown, olive etc etc . Treat all the same .

              • May 25th 2018 @ 2:19pm
                Aussikiwi said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:19pm | ! Report

                PeterK what racism against whites and sexism against males has that evil “inclusion” tolerated and propogated exactly?

              • Roar Guru

                May 25th 2018 @ 3:38pm
                PeterK said | May 25th 2018 @ 3:38pm | ! Report

                wal – there is also current and persistent inequality for white men in lots of areas.

                Legally they have less rights.

                Should leave it there since this is the wrong forum and would take hours to detail.

              • May 25th 2018 @ 6:01pm
                James Mampara said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:01pm | ! Report

                To say that ‘White men have been, and continue to be the main transgressors when it comes to poor or unequal treatment of others’ is simply racist. Not only that it is sexist.

                Most importantly, it is inaccurate. For example, white working class boys have recently been identified as the most disadvantaged group in the UK, due to affirmative action policies. This has been readily admitted by the Shadow Education Secretary (Labour).

              • May 26th 2018 @ 7:59am
                Aussikiwi said | May 26th 2018 @ 7:59am | ! Report

                Typical PeterK, raise an absolutely ridiculous assertion that white men have less rights than others then when challenged assert that this isn’t the forum to discuss.
                It probably isn’t, but you raised it in your sneering attack on “inclusion” for depriving poor white males.

                And see above re fauna issue, it is true that aboriginal people were not formally classified under the Fauna Act, as the link discusses. That was not what I said. Until the referendum (as a matter of law) aborigines were treated as not being human, hence the reference to being treated as fauna was used at the time and since because they were deemed less than human.

              • May 26th 2018 @ 4:32pm
                soapit said | May 26th 2018 @ 4:32pm | ! Report

                peter (forgive the pun) but its not a black and white issue. if an insult is made against a group that has experienced significant wrong based on similar insults in the past then i think it fair we go out of our way to help them not be used. if a similar level of insult is made against a group that hasnt experienced significantly wrong from that type of insult then, although still wrong, i dont think it needs to be focused to the same level as theres no harm likely to be propagated.

                this is easily seen as a not level playing field but its the end harm that is seen as most important to be made more level in this imperfect world, not the freedom of the other side to be able to try and inflict the harm.

    • May 25th 2018 @ 7:21am
      Milan said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:21am | ! Report

      Whilst your at it MH01maybe you could suggest why you’re man folau does not quote the Bible re not working on the sabbath.

      That wouldn’t come down to dollars in his pocket for your man folau would it?

      • May 25th 2018 @ 7:28am
        MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 7:28am | ! Report

        Why don’t you tweet and ask him?

        You do realise he was baited into the hell comment ?

        Maybe you can bait him into the sabbath question . And drive an agenda.

        Interesting that you call him my man. Frankly as a catholic I am sick and tired of my religion getting mocked on these forums. Can you see the irony? I doubt it ….. just drive your simple agenda .

        • May 25th 2018 @ 9:34am
          Jacko said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:34am | ! Report

          MH01…RTT…Mr Essa….how many is there?

          • May 25th 2018 @ 10:47am
            Taylorman said | May 25th 2018 @ 10:47am | ! Report

            A girl in every port? 🙂

          • May 25th 2018 @ 5:08pm
            MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 5:08pm | ! Report

            Me RTT – lol. I see , if someone does not bash folau – we dump them into the RTT / Essa group 🙂 in that case I better start worshiping the tahs , and go delete all my Brumbies posts 😉

        • May 25th 2018 @ 9:37am
          moaman said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:37am | ! Report

          MH01 “Frankly as a catholic I am sick and tired of my religion getting mocked on these forums.”

          Frankly as a catholic–i would think that was the least of your worries.

          • Roar Rookie

            May 25th 2018 @ 11:31am
            Sage said | May 25th 2018 @ 11:31am | ! Report

            Pay that one Moa.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 5:17pm
            MH01 said | May 25th 2018 @ 5:17pm | ! Report

            Case in point moaman – if I was gay and you said that to me, it would be an outrage .

            I grew up under communism , and first hand experienced what denial of freedom and freedom of speech is . In my opinion to truly understand something , you need to experience it first hand .

            In a very shit time, religion was freedom for us, and if you want a history lesson , actually , i suggest you read up how religion played a huge part in bringing down communism in Europe and giving millions of people freedom .

            It’s all funny to you guys – It was not for me – hence why you might bash me on these forums , but having been denied freedom of speech , I hate any form of facist behaviour that shuts down conversations, cause I know the dark place this can lead to. Never again.

            Mock me for being a catholic , it’s all we had during a very dark time !

        • Roar Guru

          May 25th 2018 @ 1:27pm
          Timbo (L) said | May 25th 2018 @ 1:27pm | ! Report

          Strangely, I am with MH01 on this one. It is no secret that I have been driving an Anti bigotry agenda but I have always recognized that Folau gets his views from an off-brand Fundamentalist Pentecostal Church of which he is a member. He probably should have been more specific about what brand of devout Christianity he is when he published the his puff piece on the players voice.

          We should be careful not to paint all Christians with the same brush.
          But if your religious flavor has bigoted views in it’s doctrine that you devoutly follow please keep them to yourself or be prepared for others to exercise their freedom of expression to disagree with them.

          • May 25th 2018 @ 2:47pm
            Cynical Play said | May 25th 2018 @ 2:47pm | ! Report

            Well, none other then the Pope clearly stated this week that the Catholic Church wants to include homosexuals. Landmark statement. So Folau’s church, and Folau, are at odds with the Pope. Which suggests it’s pure homophobia, as most of us suspected.

            • Roar Rookie

              May 25th 2018 @ 6:37pm
              piru said | May 25th 2018 @ 6:37pm | ! Report

              I hear the pope is from Argentina

              • Roar Guru

                May 26th 2018 @ 8:35am
                Timbo (L) said | May 26th 2018 @ 8:35am | ! Report

                Don’t cry for him.

            • May 26th 2018 @ 12:02pm
              Jacko said | May 26th 2018 @ 12:02pm | ! Report

              CP I was unaware that the head of ONE church controlled the thoughts and beliefs of DIFFERENT churches

      • Roar Guru

        May 25th 2018 @ 9:14am
        Wal said | May 25th 2018 @ 9:14am | ! Report

        Waratahs YTD 3 matches

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