MJ or LeBron: Why there's a clear winner in the race to be basketball's GOAT

Sorry Swampy, I have to disagree with you on the notion that LeBron is an inclusive player as opposed to Jordan. LBJ is a great team player as long you're playing the LeBron system. The Cavs don't even look like a side that coached properly. Ty Lue doesn't exert the type of control over his roster the way a Popovich or the Celtics guy does, and it shows.

I think he would be the dominant player too, though not the most flamboyant one. That would be Lebron still. Jordan/Bulls would be the champion instead of the Warriors. And when facing Lebron, he would put overdrive in all his greatness and would humilliate Bron one or two times per game (as Mutombo, Edwing, Malone, etc.)

Thank you Swampy. LeBron is a first ballot hall-of-famer for sure but he ain't even top 5 on my the all time list. For him to climb a few notches, he'd have to win this current finals series. He's got to drag this Cavs roster over the line from 3-0 down against an all time great finals team in the Warriors. It ain't happening, so quit your whining. His stats are great and he's basically a 6'8" point guard with a top shelf passing game who can transition to other roles on offense but he hasn't won as many titles as MJ or even Kobe and that's not even counting Russell. Being great means winning titles and not just having great stats, in the NBA anyway.

My top 10 NBA ATG's: 1. MJ 2.Kareem Abdul Jabar 3. Bill Russell 4. Magic 5. Larry Bird 6. LeBron 7. Wilt 8. Shaq 9. Hakeem 10. Duncan

Hey swamp... For the record, I'm not arguing Lebron is better. Just that its closer than people think. My main argument is against some of the misconceptions about the past NBA vs present, and when you look at the stats, its pretty clear many of the perceptions people have of the NBA during the Jordan era, just aren't true. I agree that MJ today would score more points, but doubling his average (you said 60+ and an earlier comment said 50ppg) is a bit much. Nine times a player went for 50+ points this year, so to assume Jordan would do this every game is a bit of an overstatement, no? Finally, on Jordan's teammates...I'm not comparing Lebron's teams to the Bulls teams, but even if you accept that his teammates weren't spectacular, you have to admit that Pippen alone was a massive advantage for MJ, and better than any teammate Lebron has had for one year, let alone throughout his career.

This isnt the "meltdown" I was referring too. This was when I said Jordan has alot of help on multiple occasions, I stand by those comments. He was only in this game due to his supporting cast. How many times can you say that about Lebron in the last 4 years?

This was meant to be a reply to astro above.

Roger do your self a favour and watch the 4th quarter of the game in question. Complete meltdown is about as far from the truth as you could ever get. Here's a link. https://youtu.be/Dx1WD9P36wo Its a great game and the crowd is mental to boot. Well worth 20 minutes of your time. There's some great players on both teams and Scotty Williams plays the best game of his life. Be your own judge from seeing with your own eyes.

This article was written before they changed the rules without the concept of the defensive three second rule. You basically still can't play zone defence. You have to be actively guarding another player within 3 seconds (eg. You can't stick your big rim protector under the basket as Jordan had assumed teams would when making his comment). If you read my comments to this article I do claim LeBron to be the greatest team player but Jordan is still the greatest individual player (not just scorer - he played both ends, LeBron rests at one end). I stick by Jordan averaging high points per game. For one, he would shoot even more free throws today as the game is called much tighter. Second, there are no 7' guys waiting to bludgeon him in the key. Do you honestly think Draymond green would block Jordan on a drive? Fair to say there is plenty of the individual brilliance encouraged in the nba. James Harden springs to mind - probably the mvp. As for teammates, Jordan had an awesome unit with longley, kukoc, pippen, harper and rodman. But that was the second stretch of three titles. The first three titles he really only had pippen. Horace Grant wasn't a great rebounded as you suggest - he was above average. The rest of the team were really journeymen. LeBron had Wade, Bosh and Allen in Miami who are all future HOFers. He had a decent team when he won a title with Cleveland - Love, Kyrie and a good Thompson and JR. We can't say he's had crap teams. He's lost titles with good teammates. LeBron is an inclusive player. Jordan was barely tolerant of teammates. They are quite different. Individually though Jordan was better and that's what we are talking about.

So if Lebron came off the bench and made a couple of FT's and steals he would be let off the hook? Lebron plays on level of expectation and pressure Jordan never got close too.

Recency bias or your confirmation bias and blind-spot bias? I'd question your own cognitive biases if you really think the Blazers were 'stacked' against the Bulls. The Bulls had the best record in the league that year, with 67 wins...10 more than the Blazers. Jordan was the MVP. They were favourites going into the Finals. You really believe though that they had an inferior roster to the Blazers?

No where did I say hand-checking doesn't make a difference. But hand-checking didn't exist in isolation. When they removed hand-checking, they changed the illegal defense rules and that had a significantly bigger impact on how the game is played that hand-checking. This is a great article from 2001: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-04-01/sports/0104010375_1_defense-recommendations-nba In it you'll see this: "If teams were able to play zone defenses, he (Jordan) said, he never would have had the career he did." You still think Jordan would average 60+ per game? If you read that article, you'll also get an answer to Lebron vs MJ in terms of one being a team player and one being an individual scorer. Again, its the game and rules that make the difference. Lebron is more team-focused because he has to be. The game today isn't designed to encourage individual brilliance (see Westbrook and OKC) while it was in Jordan's time.

Ridiculous statements. A complete meltdown is such a crock. Maybe you need to watch those games on YouTube. They are available. Jackson did go to the reserves in game 6 92 and they did help reduce the lead and Jordan came back in got a couple of steals and many free throws that finished the game. He closed the Blazers out. I just rewatched it to be sure. If you look at that Blazers team they were stacked. Especially compared to the bulls who had a roster of very average players outside of pippen and Grant. Jordan shot 56% & 43% from 3 and 89% from the ft line. He averaged 36 ppg. He dominated like no other players have ever. And he did this every finals series. Recency bias at its best here. Jordan is the Goat. This is only debated by fools.

I don't know how James is even in this discussion much. Does anyone seriously doubt Jordan(and I could name several others, but I'll stick to Jordan for now for argument's sake) would only have 3 rings playing on the teams/era James has played on? I have a hard time seeing Jordan with anything less than 5. And James' stats are great, but they're often misleading and not that impactful at times. Take game 2 of the Finals as the latest example. I give James credit for 9 Finals. But, let's put it in perspective. He's had a much easier road to the Finals than Jordan did, and hops around to form other super teams whenever he feels like it. James has been outplayed by multiple much-inferior players in the playoffs throughout the years, including some role players at the time, which includes Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo, Jason Terry, Andre Iguodala, Kawhi Leonard(pre-AS Kawhi). If he's getting outplayed by Kobe or Duncan or Shaq, that's one thing, but not these guys, and it's happened many times. Not sure if Jordan could've won in 2007, but he's not going to get outplayed by Parker. James had the best in 09 and 10, and couldn't even make the Finals either year. Then, he quits in the 2011 Finals. After 2011, Jordan would've had at least 2-3. Maybe Jordan couldn't have won in 2014, but he's not going to let Kawhi outplay him either.

Have you played a high level or even decent senior level game of basketball? Hand-checking is a thing. It makes a huge difference. Even Steph curry could retard LeBron if he could put a hand or two on him in iso. The game was certainly different in Jordan's era - taking 6 or 7 threes was a rarity and there was usually two giant slabs of meat waiting in the key for any invaders that could shrug off the hand-checkers. Today's players are definitely better percentage shooters and far more efficient. They are probably facing quicker longer defenders who have more knowledge in how to defend each player as well. Defensive schemes are more advanced than in Jordan's era. As are offensive schemes. Phil Jackson's triangle being the perfect example of a superceded style. However there are some things that hold true. LeBron misses free throws in crunch time. Jordan was a killer at the line closing out games. His team just needed to get him close and he could finish them off. LeBron needs his team's help. Jordan was the game's greatest individual player. His ability to kill off a game was second to none. LeBron, for all his wonder, is more a team player. He can get them there but he needs his team mates all the way, even if they are just pawns in his game. I therefore see LeBron as the greatest team player of all-time - edging Russell purely due to his individual ability. Jordan is still the greatest player. Replace LeBron with MJ in the Cavs and MJ would score 60+ a game in the finals. Whether or not that is enough to beat the greatest team of all-time is for debate. Do you need a better team player or a better individual to win?

Yeah, I think about Lebron in MJ's era with the illegal defense rules. Imagine being able to go to Lebron in the post, or iso Lebron against his defender, every time down the court and not worry about help defenders!?!? And he's such a good passer, that if any team doubled him, he would find the open man just about every time.

Great post particularly about the 1993 Bulls without Jordan as compared to Cleveland and their years without LeBron.

The argument has been done to death, and there is just so many variables you can construct whatever case you want. For me, its Lebron. There a few things I believe are often overlooked in the argument. Firstly the "harder" era of the 90's, hand checking etc. I think it is often overlooked how this would of advantaged Lebron defensively. His ability to defend guards, and use his physical strength to man handle them would of made him a nightmare defensive match up, and allowed big defensive line ups. Secondly, the winning titles with multiple franchises is undersold. The amount of absolute superstar, first-option, franchise players who have done this is a very small list; Wilt and Lebron. Its difficult to do. Thirdly, people have somehow forgotten that Jordan had complete meltdowns and huge help on multiple occasions. Especially in the finals. 1992 Game 6, team game back from 15 down with Jordan sitting. 1996 Game 6, goes 5-19 with 5 turnovers in closeout game. Even game 6 of 1997, Jordan went 15-35, which is the exact sort of thing Lebron would be destroyed for. Even passing up the game winning shot in 1993 Lebron would be hammered for. Expectations on Lebron are BEYOND Jordan, he isnt competing against Jordan he is competing against perfection; something Jordan certaintly was not. Finally, it is a different era. The Jazz team vs the Warriors? Please. There is so much that can go on in the debate, but Lebron has already gone past Jordan for me and will retire the GOAT.

I'm not saying one is better than the other...I actually think comparing them is too hard. But since everyone is so on board with Jordan, its worth noting a few facts which show how some of what we 'think' about Jordan can be biased... 1. Hand-checking is a bit of a myth - Yes, Jordan played before the hand-checking rules were amended, but he also played in an era where the illegal defense rule existed. No zone made it significantly easier for MJ to work in iso against a single defender. Lebron would take hand-checking any day of the week, over having to deal with zones and basically all 5 defenders being able to concentrate on him when he has the ball. Even Jordan said as much. 2. Defences were tougher during MJ's era, is also a myth - Yes, the game during MJs time was definitely more physical but being more physical doesn't mean the defense was better. A modern NBA defense and team tactics are significantly more advanced than 20-30yrs ago. Just think about the impact of analytics...today's defense schemes make the ones Jordan played against, look simple. 3. Jordan played in GREAT teams - Jordan would rarely if ever have played a team in the playoffs with a better team than his, or better coach. Remember, the Bulls in 93 won only 2 fewer games WITHOUT Jordan, than the year before. So he didn't win those championships by himself. Can you imagine if Lebron played alongside the equivalent of a brilliant and unselfish two-way payer like Pippen for most of his career? And great rebounders like Rodman and Grant? And had one of the greatest coaches in history? As I say, I'm not saying one is better than the other. But there are so many myths around MJ now. This idea he would "score 50 each game" today, or that hand-checking made basketball so much tougher (scoring averages were the same in the 80s and up to mid-90s than they are today when hand-checking was part of the game) is just nonsense. It shouldn't take anything away from Jordan's greatness...but, perspective...please...

MJ had to deal with hand checks which makes it so much harder to dominate a game in the way LeBron can because he can just drive at the basket. Having said that MJ didn't play in the era of superteams. UTAH was the only team to make finals against the Bulls consecutively and they had Malone and Stockton, probably 2nd and say 10th best players in those years. Maybe chuck in Horniack at somewhere around 45th if you had a rankings tennis style. LeBron is playing 4 guys in the top 15 and in Durant and Curry two guys in the top 5. Would Jordan have beaten UTAH if there starting 5 had Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, Shawn Kemp for example. No way its a team sport. I don't have a clear cut answer but LeBron cops a lot of undeserved flak.