Brisbane show they are miles ahead of Carlton

Nicholas Richardson Roar Guru

By Nicholas Richardson, Nicholas Richardson is a Roar Guru

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    A sun-baked Gabba on Saturday afternoon provided the canvas for Brisbane to demonstrate the vast disparity between themselves and Carlton’s.

    The Lions looked poised and hungry. Their ball movement was concise and frighteningly penetrating.

    Whenever the ball was turned over, the Lions players ran harder both offensively and defensively than their opponents.

    In contrast, the Blues looked disorganised and lethargic. As was elegantly put by Jonathan Brown; the Carlton defenders are “making an art form of sagging off their opponent”.

    Both Pat Cripps and Dayne Zorko had a similarly limited impact on their respective sides. However, the performance and development of the next level were contrasting.

    The disparity in growth between Sam Petrevski-Seton and Alex Witherden highlights such.

    Carlton named Petrevski-Seton as their best first-year player, but his performances lack the potency and consistency of his Lions counterpart.

    Witherden has become a frequent contributor, which he demonstrated no more than on Sunday.

    Witherden frequently beat his opponent and carved up the Blues defence with his elite foot skills.

    The Lion ranks elite in four stat categories and above average in an astonishing ten, while Petrevski-Seton ranks elite in none and above average in five.

    In addition, the growth of Darcy Gardiner and Jacob Weitering follows a similar trend.

    Gardiner has become an impressive stopper who is rarely beaten, is composed with the ball, and regularly intercepting.

    Weitering’s development could not be different. The number 1 draft pick frequently loses his opponents around the ground and continually is caught with the ball.

    In 2018, Darcy Gardiner rates elite in five statistical categories and above average in another four. Weitering ranks elite in none and above average in only three, highlighting the extreme disparity.

    Patrick Cripps and Charlie Curnow are undoubtedly going to be stars, but the next level is bare.

    In contrast, the Lions have stars like Hipwood and Andrews, but the next level is full of talents like Gardiner, Witherden, Cutler, and Rayner who are miles ahead of their Carlton counterparts.

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    The Crowd Says (151)

    • Roar Guru

      July 9th 2018 @ 7:22am
      Paul Dawson said | July 9th 2018 @ 7:22am | ! Report

      Brisbane never had issues with our drafting – plenty of players we picked have gone onto be stars

      Just not at Brisbane.

      Anyways, we were always gonna bounce back quicker than Carlton, as a fringe club in a frontier state we’re not allowed to be terrible forever as we make the AFL look bad, so of course we get elite coaches paid for by the AFL, we get one of the greatest players of the last two decades up here to get us playing better, priority picks – all things denied to Carlton because Carlton are a big club in a heartland state.

      Not sure what your motivation was in writing this article tbh – so we’re better than Carlton? Yay. The gratuitous Carlton bashing on this site is rather distasteful at times, I feel a bit like the kid in the Homer goes to clown college episode after he attacks the Hamburglar…”Stop…stop…he’s already dead!!!”

      • Roar Guru

        July 11th 2018 @ 12:26am
        hairy fat man said | July 11th 2018 @ 12:26am | ! Report

        gratuitous Carlton bashing

        There may be a part of the multiverse where bashing Carlton can be gratuitous, but not in this one.

    • July 9th 2018 @ 7:43am
      Liam said | July 9th 2018 @ 7:43am | ! Report

      Given that the Lions, over the course of the year, have had 2 players on their injury list, where Carlton’s injuries are fairly well documented – up to and including losing Simpson before the ball even bounced, Phillips in the first term, Marshbank in the second, and Weitering in the third – the fact that the Lions were at home, and the fact that when the Lions win they win by a decent margin all couple together to make this match the most foregone conclusion imaginable.

      • Roar Guru

        July 9th 2018 @ 8:17am
        Nicholas Richardson said | July 9th 2018 @ 8:17am | ! Report

        Well, where to start.

        Prior to and throughout the season, there have been numerous comparisons between the two sides on-field performances, but mainly their lists. Therefore, it was necessary to write a piece on how starkly different the two teams progress has been.

        Seeing as Brisbane were missing Charlie Cameron and Harris Andrews, their best forward and defender, I’d say Carlton was not hampered overly by injuries. I also question how a teams injury list impacts the development of individual players? Anyway, I digress.

        P.S. Water is not wet. It wets things, but it is not in and of itself wet.

        • Roar Guru

          July 9th 2018 @ 8:57am
          Paul Dawson said | July 9th 2018 @ 8:57am | ! Report

          I just question how much comparing you can do in a bare 331 words.

          As a Lions fan, I saw this piece aimed entirely at whacking Carlton, and we’re just a convenient stick to beat them with. If the Saints were doing well you’d have used them instead.

        • July 9th 2018 @ 9:12am
          Liam said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:12am | ! Report

          “Seeing as Brisbane were missing Charlie Cameron and Harris Andrews, their best forward and defender, I’d say Carlton was not hampered overly by injuries. I also question how a teams injury list impacts the development of individual players? Anyway, I digress.”

          I’m amused that you cannot see how four injuries on gameday doesn’t hamper injuries, especially when you contrast them with injuries that occurred well before the match began, and can be planned for. I’m also amused by your insinuation that it’s necessary to write this piece in the wake of other comparison pieces being written; do you also do weather reports just after a storm comes in?

          And finally, I appreciate the snark more than the article itself. If your article was an attempt at banter, I’d be far more interesting, but it clearly isn’t. Why you would chose to analyse a list or a set of kids on a single game is entirely beyond me, past the need to continue flinging dirt on Carlton fans.

          If that’s the case, fling away.

          • Roar Guru

            July 9th 2018 @ 9:42am
            Nicholas Richardson said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:42am | ! Report

            I think you are missing the point of the article. The thrashing that eventuated on Saturday afternoon shed light on the issue that Carlton’s list has failed to develop in the same way that Brisbane’s has.

            It’s also a nice false equivalence you’ve drawn there. Your comment also somehow inaccurately uses the analogy I assume it was trying to make. This article would be more of an analysis as to what caused the weather to happen and what this says about the climate, not if or when the storm was going to come in.

            • July 9th 2018 @ 9:58am
              Macca said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:58am | ! Report

              “Carlton’s list has failed to develop in the same way that Brisbane’s has.” Largely because Brisbanes list has had longer and the Lions have been able to play close to their best 22 all year.

              • Roar Guru

                July 9th 2018 @ 10:18am
                Paul Dawson said | July 9th 2018 @ 10:18am | ! Report

                We also have Luke Hodge and Chris Fagan

                Carlton has Marc Murphy and Brendan Bolton

              • July 9th 2018 @ 3:36pm
                Jean Smith said | July 9th 2018 @ 3:36pm | ! Report

                Would you fairly say you would be badly hampered performance wise if you had quite a few injuries like Carlton has or would you say you have the players to balance in place of a few missing good players? Jean

              • July 9th 2018 @ 10:34am
                Macca said | July 9th 2018 @ 10:34am | ! Report

                And we will have Marc Murphy for another 3 or 4 years I would suggest – will you have Hodge next year?

              • Roar Guru

                July 9th 2018 @ 11:07am
                Paul Dawson said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:07am | ! Report

                We won’t need him. He has struck our side like a meteorite. They don’t need to keep bouncing to make an impact

                As opposed to Marc Murphy, whose career trajectory has not been dissimilar to Christa McAuliffe’s

            • July 9th 2018 @ 10:15am
              Liam said | July 9th 2018 @ 10:15am | ! Report

              Except you’re not actually doing any analysis, are you?

              Feel free to keep snarking back, mate.

        • July 9th 2018 @ 9:57am
          Macca said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:57am | ! Report

          Nicholas – “I’d say Carlton was not hampered overly by injuries” The blues were missing Docherty, Simpson, Plowman, Byrne & Williamson who would be best 22 defenders, they are also missing A Silvagni, Cuningham, MacReadie and Schumacher who would be their most likely replacements. Throw in Dow being “rested” and I think it is safe to say that the blues were impacted by injury more than just missing 2 players.

          I f we then go on to losing Phillips in quarter 1 which meant that our entire structure out, then Marchbank and the Weitering it becomes very hard to argue that the blues and Lions were impacted roughly the same by injury.

      • Editor

        July 9th 2018 @ 9:01am
        Daniel Jeffrey said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:01am | ! Report

        Hey Liam,

        Roar ranks are determined by an author’s contributions to the site – their number of articles, article reads, and comments. Nicholas has written an entirely fair article here based off what we saw on the weekend. If you really do think it’s such an unnecessary article, there probably wasn’t any need to patronise the piece in the first place, let alone criticise the author without any specific references to what he’d written. Instead, perhaps you could contribute an article of your own to the site.

        • July 9th 2018 @ 9:16am
          Liam said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:16am | ! Report

          I’ve contributed articles before, Daniel, mainly for the cricket section, but in here as well.

          As for whether or not there’s need for my patronage here, perhaps you could see to it that articles that portray a facimile of analysis actually conduct analysis in their articles. If you do that, I wouldn’t need to point out an article’s issues.

        • July 9th 2018 @ 9:46am
          Liam said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:46am | ! Report

          And Daniel, I’m not a fan of deleting comments that don’t contain swearing or abuse, or editing comments to change their content.

          If Nicholas is capable at arguing his arguments – you know, the arguments contained in his article – then let him defend his words.

          • Roar Guru

            July 9th 2018 @ 10:02am
            Paul Dawson said | July 9th 2018 @ 10:02am | ! Report

            At the very least editors should leave a comment saying *this comment has been moderated*

            simply deleting the offending section without any note that modifications have occurred I feel is a cardinal sin in online commentary

          • Editor

            July 9th 2018 @ 2:10pm
            Daniel Jeffrey said | July 9th 2018 @ 2:10pm | ! Report

            Liam, afraid I’m not sure what comment you’re referring to there, as I don’t have the joy of moderating every single comment that appears on the site. Feel free to drop us a line via our contact form about it though and I’ll get back to you.

    • Roar Guru

      July 9th 2018 @ 8:18am
      Col from Brissie said | July 9th 2018 @ 8:18am | ! Report

      So where was the article ‘Brisbane show they are miles ahead of Fremantle’ last week after they demolished the Dockers in Perth or that they are miles ahead of Hawthorn after they beat the Hawks by nearly 10 goals?

      • Roar Guru

        July 9th 2018 @ 8:28am
        Nicholas Richardson said | July 9th 2018 @ 8:28am | ! Report

        Given the comparisons which are drawn between the two teams, the outcome highlighted some deeper list problems. Such comparisons are infrequently made between the Hawks and Dockers.

        • Roar Guru

          July 9th 2018 @ 11:55am
          Col from Brissie said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:55am | ! Report

          Nicholas, you can’t make comparisons on where teams are at based on 1 game. The only way a fair comparison can be made is when both sides have their best 22 on the field and playing at a neutral venue.

          The team Carlton put out on Saturday in nowhere near their best side and the weather conditions at the Gabba on Saturday were completely different to what any Melbourne side would be used to. Marchbank was so distressed he was taken to hospital with an elevated heart rate.

          • Roar Guru

            July 9th 2018 @ 3:34pm
            Nicholas Richardson said | July 9th 2018 @ 3:34pm | ! Report

            Well, the article is merely highlighting that Saturday’s match highlighted a year-long trend and the player ratings reflected that. Also, it was 22 degrees, hardly excessive. Neither club had their best 22 on the field; you criteria mean that comparisons between teams can never occur. Ther is little evidence to suggest that the ‘heat’ caused Marchbank’s condition.

            • July 9th 2018 @ 3:44pm
              Macca said | July 9th 2018 @ 3:44pm | ! Report

              Nicholas – “Neither club had their best 22 on the field” why do you continue to believe that Brisbane missing 1 forward and 1 defender is the same as the blues missing Docherty, Simpson, Plowman, Byrne, Williamson (5 defenders) & Dow plus losing Phillips, Marchbank and Weitering (2 more defenders) during them game.

              “Ther is little evidence to suggest that the ‘heat’ caused Marchbank’s condition.” OK Dr Nick, what did cause his condition?

            • Roar Guru

              July 9th 2018 @ 5:04pm
              Col from Brissie said | July 9th 2018 @ 5:04pm | ! Report

              It was actually 24 & humid here on Saturday Nicholas.

              • July 9th 2018 @ 5:26pm
                Alicesprings said | July 9th 2018 @ 5:26pm | ! Report

                22..24 flip either way thats on the cold side.

                We played in 36 degree heat a couple months back. I think those southern boys might need to toughen up a little?

                God forbid an AFL team from Darwin ever becomes a reality.

              • Roar Guru

                July 9th 2018 @ 5:32pm
                Col from Brissie said | July 9th 2018 @ 5:32pm | ! Report

                They are coming from where the temperature is in the 12 – 14 range – that’s cold.

              • July 9th 2018 @ 8:07pm
                Bee bee said | July 9th 2018 @ 8:07pm | ! Report

                This comment has been removed for breaching The Roar’s comments policy.

              • July 10th 2018 @ 12:05am
                Jean Smith said | July 10th 2018 @ 12:05am | ! Report

                I think it is unnecessary for that kind of remark we don’t get sarcastic in our comments like that we are just trying to make a point without making judgements the way you are keep it respectful and we are not snobs but the way you’re talking is. Jean

              • July 9th 2018 @ 9:41pm
                Steve009 said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:41pm | ! Report

                I was at the Gabba for the game and it was a cold day in Brisbane if you ask me

              • Roar Guru

                July 9th 2018 @ 10:13pm
                Paul Dawson said | July 9th 2018 @ 10:13pm | ! Report

                Nah it was warm Saturday. Sunday was a lot colder

              • July 10th 2018 @ 8:03am
                Steve009 said | July 10th 2018 @ 8:03am | ! Report

                I was at the beach Sunday. We really do have it pretty good up here.
                I’m really not sure why so so many young Victorian players would want to leave Qld to go home to their mummies.

              • Roar Guru

                July 10th 2018 @ 9:31am
                Col from Brissie said | July 10th 2018 @ 9:31am | ! Report

                It was probably cold for Carlton supporters Steve but I bet the Brisbane supporters worked up a sweat from celebrating every goal.

                My grandkids are up from Melbourne at the moment and they were swimming at the beach on Saturday,

              • July 10th 2018 @ 1:06am
                Steve009 said | July 10th 2018 @ 1:06am | ! Report

                Been living in Queensland for 7 years. Anything under 25 is cold

      • July 9th 2018 @ 8:44am
        andyincanberra said | July 9th 2018 @ 8:44am | ! Report

        In fairness, comparisons between Carlton and Brisbane are inevitable. Both teams have been ‘in the wilderness’ for a long time, with successes few and far between, and both teams are trying to rebuild their lists with young, top-end talent.

        Whether you agree with the author is a matter of perspective, but I’d suggest making a comparison between these 2 teams, given where they sit in the premiership lifecycle, is more than fair.

      • July 9th 2018 @ 6:33pm
        Jean Smith said | July 9th 2018 @ 6:33pm | ! Report

        Carlton was able to beat Essendon by 13 points which Brisbane was not able to beat them and on your home ground. Okay Carlton has only had that 1 win so far but Brisbane isn’t plaqued with injuries as much as Carlton but I bet it would be a different story if they did have as many injuries as Carlton has had. Okay you’ve had some strong wins over Fremantle and Hawthorn but would you have had such strong wins if you were in Carlton’s position with the amount of injuries they’ve been struck with? Carlton has been competitive in some games and may not have been able to hold out long enough to get the points but I believe all these injuries is putting a strain on them. Jean

    • Roar Guru

      July 9th 2018 @ 8:27am
      DingoGray said | July 9th 2018 @ 8:27am | ! Report

      Quite funny how touchy the Carlton supporters are with this. Numerous times during the year we are constantly reminded how well Carlton are going with developing their list and the one time there’s comparison the Blues all get their knickers in a knot.

      Direct comparison is quite apporiate considering both time lines. Similar finishing positions last couple of years, newer coaches around the same time.

      I for one like to see a bit of evening up of the discussion as it just floods navy Blue on this site.

      • Roar Guru

        July 9th 2018 @ 11:01am
        Nicholas Richardson said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:01am | ! Report

        It is quite hilarious, especially when it divulges into blaming and criticising the editors.

    • Roar Guru

      July 9th 2018 @ 9:04am
      Peter the Scribe said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:04am | ! Report

      To be fair Nicholas has taken the time to write an article comparing two sides who have been largely at the bottom for several years. It is a fair premise for an article after they just played each other comparing their different routes back to contention. What I’m reading here appears more frustration at yet another Carlton article more than anything. Have I had enough of Carlton articles in The Roar? Hell yes but the premise for the article is there so IMO Nicholas shouldn’t be attacked for writing it.

      • July 9th 2018 @ 9:43am
        Liam said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:43am | ! Report

        My premise is that, due to the sheer number of Carlton articles over the course of the year, that this article – yet another go at bashing Carlton in the wake of a loss – is more or less completely unnecessary.

        Name an observation that Nicholas has made that he’s adding to the the conversation, something different from another perspective already offered, something portraying some actual original thought, beyond ‘I don’t think player x is very good compared to player y’.

        • Roar Guru

          July 9th 2018 @ 11:03am
          Nicholas Richardson said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:03am | ! Report

          I think the provision of statistics takes it beyond simply my opinion.

          • July 9th 2018 @ 11:11am
            Macca said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:11am | ! Report

            Not really – you are statistically comparing 22 year old Gardiner with 20 year old Weitering, you are comparing 188cm 85 kg Witherden with 180cm 74kg SPS.

            The way you are using stats I could say that because SPS lays 3 times as many tackles as Witherden and kicks 3 times as many goals he is the better player.

            • Roar Guru

              July 9th 2018 @ 11:28am
              Nicholas Richardson said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:28am | ! Report

              Should Cripps not be compared to Zach Merrett then? They’re entirely dissimilar in size. Given that Weitering was a ‘ready-made’ backman, number one pick and Gardiner was a pick 22 who was underdeveloped; it is fair to compare them.

              The difference is that I’m looking at their performance as a whole and not merely grabbing one or two statistics and deducing from that.

              • July 9th 2018 @ 11:32am
                Macca said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:32am | ! Report

                I wouldn’t compare Merrett to Cripps but it is harldy the same as trying to say a 22 year old and a 20 year old KPD should be at the same stage of development or that a player who is 10kg lighter (and had disrupted pre-seasons) and plays an entirely different position is going as well in certain area’s.

        • Roar Guru

          July 9th 2018 @ 11:15am
          Peter the Scribe said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:15am | ! Report

          Liam you assume that Nicholas has read and digested all the articles on the Blues this year. Carlton fans probably read them all, the rest of us don’t. Don’t get me wrong I think there has been some Carlton bashing articles in here this year but Nicholas’ piece is not one of them IMO. He is just comparing the rebuild of two clubs who since 2011 have gone 13, 12, 15, 17, 17, 18 (Brisbane) and 10, 8, 13, 18, 14, 16 (Carlton) and currently sit 16th and 18th respectively. If that is not the premise for a comparison article straight after Brisbane belted the Blues by 65 points (that could have been 90) then I don’t know what is. IMO we should encourage Roarers to write their own pieces, have a go yourself, it’s a lot easier just to pot shot others who have.

    • July 9th 2018 @ 9:42am
      Macca said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:42am | ! Report

      On the weekend the blues had 3 fewer players over 100 games, 4 more players under 50 games and 4 more players under 21 – it is hardly unexpected that the team the lions put out are “ahead” of the blues.

      The blues injury list is also significantly longer than the lions.

      If we look at “Gardiner (22 and 9 months), Witherden (19 and 9 months) , Cutler (23 and 4 months) and Rayner (18 and 8 months)” and compare them to their blues counterparts I would be interested to see who you think they are but if we were to say they were Weitering (20 an 7 months) Williamson (19 and 6 months and has been injured all year) Marchbank (21 and 7 months and has been injured pretty much all year and finished the game in hospital) and Dow (18 and 8 months and was rested on the weekend) we can see the Brisbane players are either significantly older, not injured or in the case of Dow and Rayner not exactly “miles ahead”.

      • Roar Guru

        July 11th 2018 @ 3:40pm
        Pumping Dougie said | July 11th 2018 @ 3:40pm | ! Report

        I read the Doggies had the youngest side and least experienced side this year for the first 9 rounds (not sure about the more recent rounds). Which does make me question the progress of some other sides, including Carlton, given that the Doggies have been more competitive and look more likely to improve rapidly in the short term.

        Brisbane have made big strides forward this year, evidenced by their percentage so it looks like Carlton are being left behind again. The article is therefore warranted.

        • July 11th 2018 @ 3:48pm
          Macca said | July 11th 2018 @ 3:48pm | ! Report

          Without looking it up Dougie I would suggest the dogs had more players at the average age whereas the blues have a massive amount under 21 and not much until around 28 – that is a big difference.

          Also the Lions this year have had about 3 or 4 players on their injury list all year, with most of them not in their best 22 – the blues had 15 on the list this week and have been around the 13 mark most of the year with players like Docherty & Murphy missing large chunks.

          And the article may be warranted but it is a terrible effort comparing SPS to Witherden when they are different sizes and play different roles and criticising 20 year old Weitering for not being as developed and the 22 year old Gardiner is just poor work.

          • Roar Guru

            July 11th 2018 @ 4:06pm
            Pumping Dougie said | July 11th 2018 @ 4:06pm | ! Report

            Yep, Carlton’s injuries are very relevant and have a compound effect. They don’t need that.

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