Nine questions to come from Round 16

Jono Baruch Roar Rookie

By Jono Baruch, Jono Baruch is a Roar Rookie

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40 Have your say

    Although there is some moving and shaping to go, the ladder is finally starting to take some shape as we turn towards the final stretch of the home-and-away season.

    It’s the time when the jostling for positions inside the top eight really turn up and gets to a point where dropping any game could prove to be the downfall between a home final, an away final or, in the case for the clubs at the lower end of the eight, missing out altogether. So in the ultimate race to the finish, who is a tease, who is a certainty, and who are the ones that can realistically challenge for the flag?

    1. Where will the Cats finish?
    While there is still some doubt over positions 6, 7 and 8, Geelong are turning into one of the more intriguing stories of the year. We all know the storied success of this club in the current era with plenty of premierships and finals but at the conclusion of Round 16, it would seem than many are still yet to get a proper read on this side and where they might finish eight weeks from now.

    There have been the good Geelong performances, the likes of which we saw on Thursday night, and there have also been performances where they have been left wanting. Their inconsistency as a collective group has left them as one of the great teases and teams to watch for the rest of 2018.

    2. Where to now for Adelaide?
    Richmond are scary and took no prisoners on Friday night, leaving in their wake an Adelaide team whose season is now hanging by the barest of threads. While mathematically it’s still possible, finals seem a long shot for this struggling team. With a difficult and important month coming up, the margins for error are getting smaller and smaller. When does this side start planning for next year or do they keep on trying to make a run for it?

    3. Who sent the biggest message yesterday?
    So many different threads out of this one. There are a lot of questions about Carlton and how bad they are travelling at the moment. The Lions made a huge statement by playing their exciting brand of footy and one young player stood out like a beacon and sent a message to the Carlton match committee in the same process.

    Eric Hipwood and Harry McKay were both selected in the first round of the 2015 draft. McKay went at ten while Hipwood went four picks later at 14. On the weekend, Eric Hipwood lined up for his 45th AFL and kicked six goals in a big breakout game while Harry McKay was sitting in the grandstand at the Gabba watching it all unfold.

    Through injuries, form and lack of opportunities, McKay has only managed eight matches over his three-season career so far, but it is his output (averages two goals per game) that has left the Blues fans bemused at his constant non-selection. Hipwood has been played and played and played, largely unsighted in the early games but now it seems all of that senior experience early is starting to bear fruits with continuous, consistent performances.

    You would hope that Carlton bite the bullet soon and not let McKay wither in the VFL much longer so he has a chance to grow and realise his talent.

    4. Who could be the one to rattle the Tiger cage?
    While they might have won ugly on the weekend, Port Adelaide are stamping themselves as a contender and are now emerging as one of the few teams that could take it up to the Tigers. The litmus test will be the MCG, where they face Collingwood in a few weeks.

    To be able to go with Richmond you need to be able to score, which Port Adelaide do, with their rich attacking stocks. Their midfield is starting to click nicely with Ollie Wines, Sam Powell-Pepper, Tom Rockliff, Chad Wingard and Robbie Gray all going along nicely.

    Their biggest question mark is on arguably their most important player being fit, that being Tom Jonas and his troublesome knee.

    Ollie Wines Port Adelaide Power AFL 2017

    (Photo by Daniel Kalisz/Getty Images)

    5. What would be worrying for Ross Lyon?
    One of Ross Lyon’s biggest criticisms has been around a failure to adapt to conditions and change and tinker the game plan accordingly.

    Although Melbourne dominated the first term without hurting the Dockers and continually wasted opportunities to further bury them on the scoreboard, Lyon was fired up at the first break as his players failed to adapt to the conditions. Max Gawn ended any Fremantle hope on the three-quarter time siren, the Demons finally going on to punish the tired Dockers in the final term.

    Melbourne finished with 50 more forward entries and 78 in total – five short of the all-time record they matched in Round 8 against Gold Coast.

    6. Need we be reminded who the master is again?
    We said a few weeks ago that Hawthorn remained the sleeping giant in the race for the finals and September action. In an emotionally charged week down at Waverley in which they said goodbye to club and AFL great Cyril Rioli, the Hawks flexed their muscles in the second half on Saturday night to remind the competition of why they were so mighty for so long.

    With all their big guns firing on the night and with their favourable draw, the Hawks are priming themselves for their run home. If there is one coach in the league that would be capable of constructing a game-plan to dethrone the Tigers, it would be Alastair Clarkson. They have eight weeks now to train and get it right.

    Alastair Clarkson

    (Photo by Michael Willson/AFL Media/Getty Images)

    7. Do we have a winner?
    North Melbourne kept on winning to keep their season alive, and Ben Brown put one hand on the Coleman Medal. Another four goals yesterday, and while it could have been so much more, he increased his tally to 46 and kick further away from the competition behind him. With seven games to play, he will be pushing towards the 70-goal mark. 

    He will face some competition from the likes of Lance Franklin and Jesse Hogan and Jack Riewoldt, but it would seem that this award is pretty close to settled.

    8. We’re going to need a bigger stadium
    Clear the calendar. Round 19, Saturday afternoon, MCG, Richmond versus Collingwood. The MCG is pretty big and can usually accommodate a lot of footy fans, but we might need a bigger stadium if these two sides keep on going the way that they are.

    A potential dress rehearsal for a day late in September? Maybe.

    It’s great for the competition that two of the powerhouse clubs are playing great footy and are up the top of the ladder. One of the other traditional powerhouses were pretty plucky yesterday against a very professional Collingwood team. As for the other one, well, there’s a lot of work to do there.

    9. Who is the royal family of football?
    As the football community bid a sad farewell to Cyril, the next chapters of the Rioli name and legacy to football are only starting to be written. Cousin Daniel, already etched in Tiger folklore forever for his role in the Premiership triumph, lit up the ‘G again on Friday night.

    Over in the west, cousin Willie is making a name for himself at West Coast and, as only Riolis know how to do, making the biggest impression on the game when it counts most.

    Football has had many great royal families producing generations of special players to an array of clubs. But there arguably hasn’t been a family that has had such an impact on the entire Aussie rules landscape as the Riolis. We have all been blessed to see the likes of Cyril provide all his brilliance on the football field (unless it was against your team) and hopefully there are still many generations of great Riolis to come.

    Getting hassled by a parent or partner about spending too much time playing video games? Now, you can tell them the story of how some ordinary gamers scored $225k for just seven weeks of work.

    Have Your Say



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    The Crowd Says (40)

    • Roar Pro

      July 9th 2018 @ 5:41pm
      Downsey said | July 9th 2018 @ 5:41pm | ! Report

      I will miss watching Cyril play.

      So what exactly will be worrying Lyon? That his players can’t adapt or that he can’t adapt? Wish he’d be worrying about getting the boot but it seems he has the board and the players in his corner.

      Can’t make a forward line happen. Too much pressure on his back line that they’re showing signs of fatigue at this point in the season, so they’re not firing either.

      • July 9th 2018 @ 9:12pm
        Don Freo said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:12pm | ! Report

        “… it seems he has the board and the players in his corner.”

        …and most of the club’s supporters. You will find 3 Freo fans complaining on here; 13th man, Jonboy and. occasionally, Adelaide Docker.

        The rest of the critics are non-Freo people who are mocking rather than critiquing.

        It is simple…get injured leaders back. They have just got the 2 Hills and Darcy back from long term lay offs. Sadly, they didn’t get to play at the same time as Sandi, Fyfe and Blakely because they then got injured. Put them all together and you have no problem.

        Then you add Taberner, Ballas, Brady Grey, Lee Spurr…a bit of experience. That leadership on field is what allows a game plan to unfold and be enacted. It is inexperience that is faltering at the moment. This is not Lyon’s game plan. He has been clear about that.

        You can believe otherwise but Freo folk can see. We’ll be fine. There is a really strong outlook.

        • Roar Pro

          July 9th 2018 @ 9:24pm
          Downsey said | July 9th 2018 @ 9:24pm | ! Report

          We must be operating in different echo chambers then because my Freo crew – including numerous quay club members – are gagging for his boot.

          Darcy isn’t a leader, he’s as green as the rest of them. Sandi, Ballas, Spurr and Sheridan will be gone next year or the year after, so even less experience moving forward. Lyon’s succession plan is up the wazoo, despite our current predicament.

          • July 9th 2018 @ 11:51pm
            Don Freo said | July 9th 2018 @ 11:51pm | ! Report

            You seem to be unaware that this was Darcy’s first game this year…or you are just choosing to be obtuse.

            Yes, without a doubt your mates are in the barrackers group, not the supporters. You can always hear that type braying. They are negligible in numbers and insignificant.

            • July 10th 2018 @ 12:27pm
              Downsey said | July 10th 2018 @ 12:27pm | ! Report

              Woh, footy elitism, eh. Barrackers versus Supporters. How divisive.

              Bit of a stretch to conclude that I mustn’t be following the team closely enough because I called Darcy green after you labelled him a leader. Do you always try to shut down opposing viewpoints with derision?

              The problem with this year not being Lyon’s game plan, is that he only has the one game plan. There’s no Plan B or Plan C; no contigency plan. He has his ONE plan and that’s it and so be it and damn you all to hell if it’s not working.

              Every year he has his one game plan and every year it doesn’t work for him, so perhaps he’s the one being obtuse. But hey, if stagnant, inflexible thinking makes one a supporter rather than a barracker then enjoy that first-class upgrade, Don Freo.

              If what we’re seeing is actually his contigency plan, then he’s even worse at coming up with those.

              • July 10th 2018 @ 1:19pm
                Downsey said | July 10th 2018 @ 1:19pm | ! Report

                But, I’m going to put my fighting words to the side for a moment, because I am interested in hearing your response to Baruch’s question “What would be worrying for Ross Lyon?”

                Simply injuries or something else?

              • July 10th 2018 @ 1:38pm
                Jon Boy said | July 10th 2018 @ 1:38pm | ! Report

                Downsy, i did not hear it but it is not injuries. The most worrying thing is no improvement in the last 2-3 years and what is going to happen in the remainder of the season…..Can he lift them ? the talent is there ,everyone is aware of that but they cannot afford to dish up the crap of the last two weeks otherwise membership is going to crash. People are not going to pay top dollars for these performances…..Can you blame them ?

              • July 10th 2018 @ 4:03pm
                Don Freo said | July 10th 2018 @ 4:03pm | ! Report

                Injuries are the only explanation needed. Look at the games missed by the driving personnel. Get them back and it is all systems go.

                As for PlanB, Plan C….that is a cliche and there is no such thing in any football club. Plan A is not a single game plan. You are using the language of the hecklers.

                When you can explain why the return of our injured playmakers won’t improve things, then I will be impressed. You won’t be able to do that, though.

              • July 10th 2018 @ 4:10pm
                dontknowmuchaboutfootball said | July 10th 2018 @ 4:10pm | ! Report

                My immediate response to Baruch’s question (or rather what unfolds under that heading) is, “what the hell is he on about?”

                Talking about a coach/team having a “game plan” is a bit of a furphy, even if we all routinely do it (I just did it myself in an earlier post to you): it’s a linguistic convenience that gestures at a broad set of tactics and ploys which may or may not be being deployed at any given moment on the field. What’s more, it seems to me to be a convenience most frequently enjoyed in talk specifically about Ross Lyon (then again, I read far more commentary on Fremantle than on other teams, so this suspicion may just be the product of selection bias on my part), especially when the talk is of “Lyon’s defensive game plan”. Through that idea, the strategies (for example) of having an extra number around the stoppage and of having an extra number behind the ball are both seen to be evidence of a defensive game plan, even though each takes advantage of different in-game conditions and responds to/allows for a different set of possible outcomes.

                To the extent that a “game plan” is always, in fact, a repertoire of options, the idea that a coach/team has a Plan A but no Plan B or C doesn’t make much sense to me. Maybe you might talk about a coach/team being more inclined to “fall back” on a particular tactic (like an extra man behind the ball) in particular situations. Or again, certainly a coach is likely to develop plays and guidelines that make the most of the players’ strengths. But the idea that any coach/team would ever want to rule out making use of a particular strategy, or would insist on the “game plan” to the point of prohibiting players from scoring, strikes me, frankly, as bizarre.

                To put it another way: I readily admit to not knowing much about football, but I find it hard to fathom that anyone who’s been watching Freo games very closely over the last four years could possibly believe that there’s been no change in “game plan” across that time. Even at a superficial level, Freo has shifted focus from scoring predominantly from stoppages and from forward half-turnovers (2012-2015) to scoring from half-back rebounds (2016-2018). When things click, their ball movement in transition from defence to goal has been lightning fast — see the first quarter of the Melbourne game just gone, for example, where Freo’s two goals of the quarter came from a total of about 60 seconds inside forward half (the rest of the time was spent in Melbourne’s forward half).

                Of course, things don’t always click, and there have certainly been large parts of games this season where they haven’t, though that’s perhaps not surprising given the youth of the group. And there have been too many games where the forward and midfield pressure has been virtually non-existent, leading to terrible thrashings — exacerbated, no doubt, by Lyon’s tendency this year to play people out of position, etc., as part of a process of training and experimentation.

          • Roar Guru

            July 10th 2018 @ 12:40am
            Dalgety Carrington said | July 10th 2018 @ 12:40am | ! Report

            It’s ok to question the coach and not a betrayal.

            Sheridan’s shown a bit of late as a high half-forward and if he keeps it up he’ll probably be sticking around. Which would be nice given the vacuum in high picks from those draft years early in Lloyd’s stint.

            There is actually a good bunch of players who have come in over the past year or two that are in Fyfe’s age demographic. I’d be pretty happy if the talk around the McGoverns was just that, as I’d like to see the team gel with just the draft as a top-up mechanism for the next year or two.

            The big hole in the team is getting any sort of top-flight key position forwards or even a semblance of depth there. You see just about any team that’s been defying gravity and holding of a drop down the ladder has one or two top-flight key forwards to call upon.

            But they have been able to kick goals in patches, but as a very young and inexperienced team you’re not going to see a huge amount of consistency.

            • July 10th 2018 @ 8:46am
              Don Freo said | July 10th 2018 @ 8:46am | ! Report

              There is a big difference between questioning a coach and a lynch mob mentality.

              Lyon can not be blamed for Fyfe or Sandiland’s injuries…or Blakely’s. Lyon did not cause the absence of our reigning B & F all season or our form CHF for the past 10 weeks. Our gun Sandi protege’s absence was not Rossie’s fault. To blame Ross is blind and mob- mentality. I can see those critics salivating.

              As for recruiting, this is a really good list. We just need them on the park. Add Taberner to Cox and things will fly. Brereton is a terrible commentator because he speaks at the wrong times…but he is a top critic. His endorsement of Cox is supported by Healy. When Darcy and Sandi are working in tandem, we also have the strong pack marking of Apeness up forward. Good depth there.

              The next generation of midfielders is on its way too. The draft will provide depth and cover. Trade only if a gem falls into our laps.

          • Roar Guru

            July 10th 2018 @ 9:05am
            Peter the Scribe said | July 10th 2018 @ 9:05am | ! Report

            Caro yesterday was alluding to a Ross Lyon defection to Carlton to replace Bolton as a possibility. I wonder if that has any truth to it.

            • Roar Guru

              July 10th 2018 @ 1:51am
              Dalgety Carrington said | July 10th 2018 @ 1:51am | ! Report

              Sounds like one of those insubstantial things the pundits say to fill up air time with things that sound juicy.

          • July 10th 2018 @ 2:18pm
            Jon Boy said | July 10th 2018 @ 2:18pm | ! Report

            Downsy you being among quay members i am hearing a volume of resentment among members like you .I don’t think people like Don get out of the house……If thing’s do not get better in the coming weeks i think the Board will have to act.

        • July 10th 2018 @ 12:43pm
          Jon Boy said | July 10th 2018 @ 12:43pm | ! Report

          Wake up Don you forgot Anon, Downsey and many others …….We all know except you and Dalgety that the problem is not the squad of talent it is Ross and mug assistants .Apart from Ballantyne ,Kersten ,D. Pearce, Johnson Spurr ,and Sutcliffe this is a good team but Lyon is stagnating there progress even blind freddie can see it. Lyon’s quote to Brayshaw if you can’t apply pressure son go back to the back line! (disgrace ) The first year kids have been tremendous (pure talent) nothing whatsoever to do with Lyon.

          • July 10th 2018 @ 4:26pm
            Don Freo said | July 10th 2018 @ 4:26pm | ! Report

            Anon? He hates Freo more than you do. If you add Downsey, that’s 4 of a membership of 50,000.

            Anyway, she is a bit more rational and doesn’t go to the hate position.

            • July 10th 2018 @ 5:54pm
              Downsey said | July 10th 2018 @ 5:54pm | ! Report

              Whether you agree with them or not, you’re being blinkered not acknowledging there is a significant number of members who are unhappy with Lyon. Now you can discredit them by labelling them “barrackers” and “dills” but they still exist and are growing bigger by the day.

              You and DKMAF have given me reason to reconsider my view (although I haven’t yet) but the team’s management and board aren’t doing as good a job communicating that to members in my side of the camp, and so the dissatisfaction swells.

              • July 10th 2018 @ 7:30pm
                Don Freo said | July 10th 2018 @ 7:30pm | ! Report

                I would say the team’s management and board have no duty to communicate the team’s performance to members. We can see.

                Most of us see what is clear. Injury and youth.

                Glass half empty folk just go gloom, doom, conspiracy and blame. I will never play that game. It is a sick way to live life.

        • July 10th 2018 @ 12:52pm
          Jon Boy said | July 10th 2018 @ 12:52pm | ! Report

          Don – “put them all together” your deluded thinking you will never not have injuries get over it. Freo are a long way off the worst club affected. Fyfe is the only Proven performer out . Sandi is nearly 40 and injured (again) he is shot.

          • July 10th 2018 @ 4:30pm
            Don Freo said | July 10th 2018 @ 4:30pm | ! Report

            No, you won’t but 6 or 7 of them would help. Then you don’t have the stop gaps.

            Richmond has been successful mostly on the basis of being injury free.

            If you think having Fyfe, Sandi, Taberner and Blakely back would not improve things, you’re a dill.

    • July 10th 2018 @ 2:56pm
      Downsey said | July 10th 2018 @ 2:56pm | ! Report

      I don’t think he can lift them, Jon Boy. My impression of Lyon may be off base, but I find him totally uninspiring. The players appear to rally around him, though.

      I stayed well after the end of the Brisbane match and watched our members leave early in droves. I thought that was a West Coast phenomenon, but it seems we’re voting with our feet too.

    • July 10th 2018 @ 5:26pm
      Downsey said | July 10th 2018 @ 5:26pm | ! Report

      DF: Of course it’s going to improve things, but perhaps not by as much as it should. Even Sonny seems disconnected from his beautiful intuitive play at the moment. I don’t have the same footy smarts as many commenters here, but I can smell a festering boil from a stadium away. We’ll have to wait and see whether my olfactory receptors are onto something when it comes to the coach.

      DKMAF: His ‘game plan’ – for want of a better catch-all phrase for the complexities of footy decision-making – has changed over the years, undoubtedly. That’s not what I intended to suggest. Within a season I find him two extremes – doggedly inflexible or wildly throwing caution to the wind. We talk about the team being unbalanced due to unfortunate circumstances, but perhaps Lyon’s decision-making doesn’t help. Do you really think he’s blameless in all this (“training and experimentation” aside)?

      • July 10th 2018 @ 7:11pm
        Don Freo said | July 10th 2018 @ 7:11pm | ! Report

        Here are some cases in point. Walters, Neale and Hill (who is still working to match fitness and touch after a significant time out) are play makers but without Fyfe and Blakely to do the hard inside work, they have to. One of them gets a tag. Everybody has to step up one cog. Our midfield edge just brings us back to the field and our backline rebound becomes purely defensive.

        Now that Apeness is back, we would love to exploit his pack marking in the square but we have had to use him to cover for Sandi and Darcy.

        With Taberner out, McCarthy had to be a key and he lost touch as that inside 50 third tall that he was beginning to do well.

        Without the frenetic pressure running of Ballas, we have had to keep accepting Matera’s lack of effort. Tucker has had to play up forward and we have lost his outside run.

        When you have to fill gaps, players are not able to do what they do best. Injuries to the key drivers are everything. Those that don’t get that are only looking at the scoreboard or a TAB account.

        As for your complaining mates, for every complainer there are 100 that just wish that complainer would give up. I read that interview with you on the Roar on that brief fan series. The relentless grumbling about Ballas made me cringe. It makes it horrible to watch when that poison is in the atmosphere

        • Roar Pro

          July 10th 2018 @ 8:35pm
          Downsey said | July 10th 2018 @ 8:35pm | ! Report

          Thanks for helping to broaden my knowledge base. It’s why I frequent this site. I could do without the contempt though.

          • July 10th 2018 @ 8:39pm
            Don Freo said | July 10th 2018 @ 8:39pm | ! Report

            No contempt for fans. It is the hate stuff…the sack them stuff…that I find contemptible.

            We shouldn’t expect a match committee to see it our way. They know more. Our role is to support.

      • July 11th 2018 @ 10:32am
        Jonboy said | July 11th 2018 @ 10:32am | ! Report

        Downsey……You have the football smarts believe me . Don is a ex school teacher, who will try and bully you,stick to your guns you are closer to the truth than him.

        • July 11th 2018 @ 3:42pm
          Don Freo said | July 11th 2018 @ 3:42pm | ! Report

          I don’t know what it has to with anything or why Jonboy mentions it. I am not an ‘ex-school teacher’.

      • July 11th 2018 @ 12:01pm
        dontknowmuchaboutfootball said | July 11th 2018 @ 12:01pm | ! Report

        Downsey, having no inside informant, I have no insight into Lyon’s decision-making. All I can do is read off what I see unfold on the field or in the public sphere. I don’t think Lyon’s blameless — but not because I think he is to blame for some particular things but rather because I’m not interested in playing the blame game.

        I’m not even convinced that half of the “decisions” that he is regularly pilloried for can even be said to be Lyon’s decisions. E.g. team selections, which are made by a committee, not by the coach’s fiat; or drafting, which is the responsibility of the list manager, and into which the coach routinely has very little input. Even a lot of the stuff that plays out on field, it’s ambiguous as to how much can be chalked up to a game plan or to Lyon’s decisions and how much to players’ on-field decision-making. So far as I know there’s no telepathic connection between players and coaches, and the amount and kind of info a runner can provide is surely less than total and instantaneous. When there’s no one forward of the ball to kick to, for instance, is it indicative of a game plan or of the forwards’ moving up the ground in a desire to help our or out of frustration at not being able to contribute?

        I don’t know the answers to these questions. The one thing I’m fairly confident of is that I don’t have even a drop of information as compared to the coaches and the players themselves. I don’t feel I have either the relevant information or or the expertise to be making calls along the lines of “Lyon has to go”.

        When it comes to assessing the club’s performance, I prefer to be somewhat more dispassionate about it. Passionate in my support, dispassionate in my assessment. I’m not saying that’s what other people should be like. I don’t despise Freo supporters who are vocal in their criticisms of the club or the players or the coach. But to the extent that such criticisms seem always to repeat the same old clichés, and to the extent that their authors have shown that they have no interest in hearing or saying anything different, there’s nothing for me to learn from them, and I try not to engage with them (I’m not always successful). I get no joy out of it.

        Make a critical observation that you haven’t heard endlessly repeated in the various echo chambers, and I’ll be keen to hear it.

      • July 11th 2018 @ 12:31pm
        dontknowmuchaboutfootball said | July 11th 2018 @ 12:31pm | ! Report

        Within a season I find him two extremes – doggedly inflexible or wildly throwing caution to the wind.

        Can you give some specific examples of what you mean by this? Like, really, really specific? (I’m trying to work out whether “wildly throwing caution to the wind” simply means “games Freo won” and “doggedly inflexible” means “games Freo lost”.)

        • Roar Pro

          July 11th 2018 @ 4:20pm
          Downsey said | July 11th 2018 @ 4:20pm | ! Report

          Could give you specifics but I’d have to wade through the records and that’s too bloomin’ onerous. I’m all about the feels anyway, rather than the minutiae that my brain doesn’t retain.

          But, I’m not that simple-minded that I’ve classified my criticism based only on wins versus losses… Doggedly inflexible = playing the same ineffective players over and over again; wildly throwing caution to the wind = playing all kinds of players all over the place, is my recollection of the ‘vibe’ of past years. If that makes me the Daryl Kerrigan of barrackers then I’m comfortable with that.

          I know that is a highly unsatisfactory answer for you, but it’s what I’ve got.

          That being said, I’ve taken note that I need a bit more meat to back up my calls.

          • July 12th 2018 @ 12:52am
            dontknowmuchaboutfootball said | July 12th 2018 @ 12:52am | ! Report

            Okay, thanks. I chalk most of that up to the training and experimentation that’s part of rebuilding. That’s not to say that I love it as it’s happening. I got quite annoyed about it particularly during the Collingwood game.

            In the post-game presser, Lyon addressed the fact that players were being placed out of their usual position, admitting that he was experimenting to see how they performed. I guess it’s the only way to really get an idea, but at the time it looked to me like it was bordering on tanking.

            From the perspective of a fan who wants their team to not get thrashed, I’d probably prefer he wait until at least half time to do those kinds of things. But Lyon’s damned if he does and damned if doesn’t. (Check out the crack he made in today’s presser about being mauled by the media if he dared bring Johnno or Pearce into the side, even with all the long injury list.)

            • Roar Guru

              July 12th 2018 @ 8:11am
              Dalgety Carrington said | July 12th 2018 @ 8:11am | ! Report

              Tend to agree with what you say there dkmaf. Also so much of that damned if do or don’t type of stuff has converted into belief status in many people’s brains. Being that level investment emotionally by the brain pretty much disallows or minimises any evidence contrary to that belief and will have broad broad catchments for things that are seen to support the belief. It’s pretty much the way beliefs work across the board.

              Our brains are also pretty bad at keeping up with detail if there’s something exciting going on (like the stimulation that comes with “confirming” a belief pattern, or a game of footy) and/or we’ve not got the frameworks to fit it in to.

              It’s pretty ironic, given the kinds of labels put on Lyon, by their nature the beliefs are fed by feelpinions, making them more and more immutably fixed.

            • July 12th 2018 @ 12:07pm
              Downsey said | July 12th 2018 @ 12:07pm | ! Report

              Yep, I acknowledge a lot is training and experimentation, and the absolute need for that, but perhaps that’s what I ‘feel’ hasn’t been managed well and is where my view of the two extremes of Lyon comes from.

              I agree with the damned if he does or doesn’t, I do recognise the different ways he’s pulled. The discussion on this thread has challenged my thoughts enough to soften my view, but I’m still in the fresh start camp. Probably because the doubt (or ‘poison’ as Don puts it) can’t be excised now.

              And Dal, what would footy be without feelpinions?! I think rationality would take the fun out of footy for me.

    • July 11th 2018 @ 6:08pm
      Downsey said | July 11th 2018 @ 6:08pm | ! Report

      Hey, also, and I’d love for others in the know to chime in here, I’m not convinced that decision making like recruitment and team selection is done independently of the coach. Surely those things would need the coach’s stamp of approval?

      • July 11th 2018 @ 6:29pm
        Don Freo said | July 11th 2018 @ 6:29pm | ! Report

        I’m sure that the whole coaching panel has an input…probably about player types. If coaches had the ultimate say, Freo would not have Fyfey because Harvey was adamant he didn’t want him. Phil Smart insisted. You see, coaches are unable to get around the country and the leagues and juniors to see everyone. That’s why clubs have specialist recruiters.

        Either way, Freo’s recruiting, especially over the last 2 years has been the best in the AFL. A brilliant strike rate of players that have begun to perform at the highest level. One could argue that Ross’ coaching has had a lot to do with that but the recruiters should take much credit.

      • Roar Guru

        July 11th 2018 @ 6:33pm
        Dalgety Carrington said | July 11th 2018 @ 6:33pm | ! Report

        From what I’ve seen and heard lots of clubs have a committee format just before the draft, where they recruiters who are the experts give info and the coach and head of footy get their say on what they could use for the list. Ultimately the clubs mostly back in the recruiters as experts to select the players around the wants and guidelines. Coaches would get more say in the trade area.

        A classic example of coachand recruiter the draft though, was the Fyfe-Smart-Harvey (and even the Hill-Smart-Harvey), where Smart pretty much overrode orders and objections to select the player he thought the best.

      • Roar Pro

        July 11th 2018 @ 8:45pm
        Downsey said | July 11th 2018 @ 8:45pm | ! Report

        Yeah, right.

        I’m liking the deals we did last year, on that we agree.

        *thumbs up*

      • July 12th 2018 @ 12:37am
        dontknowmuchaboutfootball said | July 12th 2018 @ 12:37am | ! Report

        • July 12th 2018 @ 12:25pm
          Downsey said | July 12th 2018 @ 12:25pm | ! Report

          Coach’s view has 5% impact on recruiting… I’m quite surprised by that. That doesn’t include trades or delisting, eh? Had a search but couldn’t find much.

        • Roar Guru

          July 12th 2018 @ 12:29pm
          Cat said | July 12th 2018 @ 12:29pm | ! Report

          I think the article is quite misleading. Senior coaches might not know who is available but they’d certainly be making it known to the recruiting manager the type of player and what roles they need filled. For example, the recruiting manager isn’t going to go out and draft talls if the Senior coach needs smalls for next years game plan. There has to be communication regarding what is needed. Who best to fill that role would certainly be more in the domain of the recruiting staff.

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