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Roar Rookie
Joined May 2019
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I think the only certainties for top 8 are the storm and roosters, simply based on their roster and consistency over the years. But for the rest it’s really anyone’s guess. Teams like manly, eels, raiders missed the 8 the year before last and are historically pretty inconsistent so I would definitely say they are not certainties. Other teams like rabbitohs have had significant changes to their spine/team and it all depends if it clicks together quickly. So while i think most teams have a hope the flip side is I don’t think anyone can be too confident either!
Expert ladder predictions are offensive
It’s nothing to do with offense – which is entirely subjective. What you deem as ‘homophobic’ and highly offensive others will just laugh at and move on. We’re talking about employment law and there should be balanced protections in place for all, including religious groups, not just the PC crowd. RA as a secular group should have been neutral on this issue when it comes to personal views by its employees. As long as his personal comments are not unlawful and hindering his rugby, RA has no right to sack anyone. I couldn’t care less that a Muslim would say in public I’m damned for eternity, or atheists say that religion is BS. It’s not an employment issue.
The thing no one wants to say about Israel Folau
Ok, well I guess that’s where we differ and the courts will decide. You think it’s got nothing to do with religion and protections, I think it’s exactly the issue we’re dealing with. Can I just say the following though:
1. You seem to think this is a clear cut case – ie. he made inappropriate comments, he was warned, he did it again, he was sacked – end of story. RA would love to have everyone believe that. But the reason this issue has attracted so much attention and traction is that most people can see there’s a lot more issues at stake. It is naive to think that this issue is clear cut.
2. It is clear through your comments that you believe Israel is a homophobic, bigotted grub who is just money hungry, hating homosexuals and hiding behind his Bible. Once you’ve personally judged him personally this way, you’ve crossed a line and can no longer give balanced comments on this issue. Your comments are merely emotional ones based on dislike of Folau rather than rational. Yes, I am biased myself, but you also need to recognise that you’ve pre-judged Israel and you’re comments are showing a distinct lack of balance.
3. In the same way that religious people should try and understand homosexuals and their perspective, I would hope that you (I’m assuming you’re non-religious) can try and empathise with religious people’s perspective rather than simply vilifying them. That way there will be more resolution. If you believe something all your life and it is deeply important to you (eg. your family etc.), BUT then all of a sudden the PC brigade and media start telling you can’t say this or that because you’ll be sacked, you can see how that can causes lots of tension. Many people can sense it with this issue and that’s why Folau is getting a lot of support – they are more balanced. But until you stop saying ‘oh, religious people just want to be protected from hate speech’ etc. etc. than you’ve stopped listening.
The thing no one wants to say about Israel Folau
You seem to think the bible offers Folau some additional protection from the consequences of making homophobic comments…
I’m not talking about additional protection – he has the same rights as anyone else. But the law is designed to protect ALL people from discrimination whether based on religion, sexual orientation, race, whatever. Unless you’ve been living under a rock you should know that there is disagreement between some religious teachings in the Bible and the homosexual lifestyle. So do we suddenly say an employee of a particular religion can’t quote parts of the Bible deemed ‘homophobic’ or any other parts your employer sees unacceptable, otherwise they will be sacked? Is that reasonable in today’s western society?
His legal case has nothing to do with freedom of speech …
Folau is claiming under the Fair Work Act that the termination was because of his religion. So in the broader context, the basic human rights of freedom of religion and freedom of speech are relevant. These rights are the basis of all policies of government and affect workplaces too.
Agreed but how is Folau being treated unfairly? Who is the other rugby player that has made public, homophobic comments that has been treated differently from Folau?
No consideration has been given to the fact that as a religious person it seems reasonable that he should be entitled to express his religious views, as long as they are not unlawful. As I stated above there is going to be conflict and offence when it comes to some parts of religion and homosexual lifestyles. But that doesn’t mean that there can’t be tolerance on both sides for a different alternative view, without fear of having ‘big brother’ employer sack you if it doesn’t align to their so-called values. This issue was always going to come up eventually, whether it was Israel or someone else.
No. Folau hasn’t been sacked for his religious beliefs. It’s because of his public homophobic statements.
You can spin it that way but I don’t think you can separate ‘homphobic statements’ out from religion. Most people acknowledge that Israel’s so-called ‘homophobic statements’ were connected to his religion/religious beliefs, as he quoted from the Bible. He said homosexuals, unless they repent, are going to Hell. And he was sacked because he posted this religious statement.
The thing no one wants to say about Israel Folau
Formatting went weird, re-posted:
Barry, it’s not dressing it up a Bible quote – IT IS a Bible quote. He was sacked for giving a religious quote that was deemed homophobic. You can’t separate the religion out of it. What – are we going to start saying you can’t quote parts of the the Bible because certain parts are ‘homophobic’ or might not align with employer’s ‘values’ (whatever that means!)? A ridiculous notion. And freedom of speech is just about not being thrown into jail. There’s much more to it than that and employers have certain responsibilities including basic human rights that cannot be overriden by their contractual agreements. Sacking someone if it doesn’t align with their so-called subjective ‘values’ is not freedom of speech. YES freedom of speech does have restrictions – you can’t just say whatever you like without consequence – but Israel wasn’t inciting people to anything unlawful, he wasn’t inciting violence. It was simply based on religious views … whether you’re offended or view it as hateful is purely subjective.
The thing no one wants to say about Israel Folau
I agree. And opposition teams could’ve been a bit unprepared last year expecting an ‘easier’ game against Manly based on 2018. The reality is there are no easy games but I think it does go through player’s heads.
A point to prove in 2020 - Part 1