Doctor, I genuinely never saw your comment on the Tiger flag being like a comet. What got me thinking about the Dogs was how they pinched the flag from 7th and then how quickly they have really fallen away this year. I know they have injuries but it really appears their 2016 flag was indeed a big flash in the pan. I thought the Dogs were the best side in the 2016 finals after being fairly worthy of contending considering they won 15 games that year. The Crows topped the ladder last year with 15 wins so the Dogs were perhaps the most likely to contend from 7th place However, how quickly have they disappeared again and I don’t see then coming back for some time. A Melbourne flag would definitely be the third fairy tale in a row that’s for sure.

West Coast are an incredibly well run, successful organisation who perennially challenge. Their average ladder position over their lifetime is an incredible 6.4. They have played in 6 grand finals and won 3 flags in the AFL era and a 4th would have them chasing down the mighty Hawks as the best club of the AFL era. Their only extended period down near the bottom was 2008-2010 where they went 15,11,16 before shooting straight back to 4th in 2011. More members than they can cope with, bigger crowds than any stadium can handle, this club, if it were in Melbourne, would be thought of as a behemoth, a giant of an organisation. Can the Eagles win the 2018 flag? Absolutely. For a start, they may well secure a preliminary final at home which would give them an almost guaranteed grand final berth. Everything went right for the Tigers last year but who knows, the Eagles may well face a Sydney or Adelaide in the grand final, in effect a neutral ground for both. Apart from the Tigers and potentially the Demons, could we have 4 interstate preliminary finalists in 2018? Imagine Prelim 1 – Adelaide v Port Adelaide. Prelim 2 – West Coast v Sydney. Mouth watering and truly national preliminary finals don’t you think?

Pete, as a fun exercise, how about the following formula?

Flags = 25 points
GF = 15 points
Final = 5 points

The formula would be Flag + GF + Final divided by number of seasons.

This would result in the following points ranking for return on investment in the AFL era. The interesting part below would be that Collingwood and Essendon with 2 flags each would rate slightly higher than Brisbane thanks to making more finals and in the Pies case an extra grand final.

Points ranking for clubs in the AFL era

Hawthorn = 125 + 90 + 85 = 300 / 28 = Rating 10.71
Geelong = 75 + 105 + 95 = 275 / 28 = Rating 9.82
Eagles = 75 + 90 + 100 = 265 / 28 = Rating 9.46
Sydney = 50 + 90 + 95 = 235 / 28 = Rating 8.39
Collingwood = 50 + 75 + 65 = 190/28 = Rating 6.78
Essendon = 50 + 60 + 80 = 190/28 = Rating 6.78
Brisbane = 75 + 60 + 50 = 185 / 28 = Rating 6.60
North = 50 + 45 + 80 = 175/28 = Rating 6.25

An interesting aside from this at the lower end of the scale (one flag clubs) would have the Doggies regular finals appearances having them ahead of Carlton and the Tigers..

Bulldogs = 25 + 15 + 65 = 105/28 = Rating 3.75
Carlton = 25 + 30 + 45 = 100/ 28 = Rating 3.57
Richmond = 25 + 15 + 20 = 60/28 = Rating 2.14

Thanks Paul, the interesting point is that if the Brisbane Lions snare 2 flags before Geelong, West Coast or Hawthorn, they will be the equal of the mighty Hawks in the AFL era according to the logic of most of the comments in here.

Fair enough I ate pies. So lets say the Tigers as expected win the flag this year and then the emerging Lions come from nowhere to pinch the 2019-2020 flags. That means they would equal the Hawks 5 premierships and by your argument be every bit as good as the Hawks since 1990?

Andy12 I have nothing but admiration for the Hawks, they are an amazing football club but my point is so are Geelong and West Coast in this AFL era, Sydney aren’t far behind either. Flags under attrition? Well, let’s talk the Cats. With what is now emerging, there was more to Mark Thompsons departure after 2010 than we knew at the time. So what did the Cats do under a first year senior coach against one of the most powerful home and away sides in the AFL history in the Pies in 2011? Won a premiership.

Reservoir Animal, I follow the Crows. As much as it was painful to watch the boys bow out against the well drilled machine that is the current Richmond team, would I trade the whole experience of the build up to a grand final, the trip to Melbourne and that feeling outside the G before the game? Not for the world. It was an amazing experience after waiting so long since the Blight flags to be back. I’d rather be making GF’s and losing them than not contending for finals at all.

Birdman, the article was intended as a mid week light hearted look at stats of the AFL era.The editors quite rightly have the option to change headlines a little. If flags are the only consideration for fans, then do Hawks fans simply block out the years between 1991-2008 as irrelevant? What about the players who played for your side in those years? Nick Holland, Paul Salmon, Jon Hay, Daniel Chick? Did they mean nothing?How about the Tigers between 1980-2017? How about if Brisbane won 5 flags in a row between 2001-2005 but finished bottom two the rest of the 23 years? My point for debate is what defines return on investment for fans? The Eagles and Cats are indeed the most consistent sides in the comp but Hawthorn win more flags and are right up there near them in consistency. I don’t think anyone can argue the Hawks don’t give a great ROI even though you had your own years in the wilderness between 1991 and 2008.

Good to see the article generating debate as intended. I see merit in all the comments so far but put this question to you.
Would you rather be a Brisbane Lions fan or a Geelong for the 28 years of the AFL era? Both have three flags. Geelong plays finals nearly 70% of the time and Brisbane around 35%? If your answer is Geelong then by the nature of your answer, you are stating that flags are indeed not everything.

I’d be interested to know the response from Tigers fans? They have made the finals only 21% of the time since 1990? Does one flag amidst all those years being in the bottom half of the ladder eradicate the pain of watching others play finals year after year?

The Hawks strike rate is incredible but don’t you believe we should also admire the strength of two clubs who put themselves in contention again more than any other? It says a lot about Geelong and West Coast respectively as organisations, about their recruiting of staff and personnel, about their planning. The fact they are both in contention yet again in 2018 (along with the mighty Hawks) is astounding. As a return on investment year after year, no clubs are better than Geelong and West Coast. As stated in the article, if flags are your only barometer of success then clearly the Hawks are 2 ahead of anyone else.

Josh, is it confirmed Ablett only wants to go to Geelong or would he entertain a Melbourne based club?

…and also Andy why perhaps we should delineate VFL and AFL history. For me, we are playing AFL and it started in 1990.

Maurice, they are up against it not because of lack of talent but because they have not much history to draw on. They play for each other as mates but it’s hard to play for the club colours when the paint is still wet. They also will need to be able to win away at the G to take the flag. I really thought they would make it this year now I’m not so sure they can go all the way just yet even with their prodigious talent.

At this time last year after Richmond finished 13th, had a board challenge, had reappointed Dimma under fire, not many would have thought they would be grand finalists, Philosopher you may well have been the exception.

Philby my main point was that there have been six different grand finalist teams in three years. The last two times that happened were 1995-1997 and then way back to 1966-68.

Well Chris, have you heard the Terry Wallace theory? Lever and Sloane’s manager has bust been appointed the Pies head of list management. Apparently, as you would believe he is very close with the Sloane family, Sloane of course a free agent end of next year. From what I hear the Pies are not pursuing Lever but are saving their pennies for Sloane and Lynch from the Gold Coast end of next year. For us Crows fans how would that be losing Lever and Sloane in consecutive years?

The Gil Mclachlan administration is proving to be an administration that makes decisions on the fly.
One thing that needs immediate addressing is the MRP. It has been a monumental failure this year and no one knows what anything means anymore. It needs a complete overhaul. The head contact and subsequent emerging concussion problems also needs to be addressed. Rolling rugby type scrums IMO is something else they need to look at.

Surely 363 comments plus is a record for a first time author! Owen you must have touched a sensitive spot here!

Dare I say Bucks and Eddie in that car heading over the cliff? If the Pies have a bad start to next year do they hold hands and drive the Holden off the cliff together?

Frances, the Tigers lost three games in a row earlier in the year by less than a goal. That alone would have knocked the wind out of the sails of a lot of inferior teams. They stuck to their process, had two bad losses in the whole season and cruised to their three finals wins by 36 points plus. Their method of ferocious pressure as they have stated, is something other teams can’t take off them. How can you stop a team from being ferocious? Keep the ball off them but ultimately to score you need to go towards goal at some stage. They beat us (I support the Crows) by 48 points, it was not even close and I for one refuse to believe we were beaten because of the venue or beacuse of Cotchin and Ellis escaping scrutiny. I also think it is a waste of time debating the venue as the AFL will not be moving the GF from the G in the foreseeable future. Therefore, at pre-season next year all 18 sides know they will play on the G if they wish to win a flag, we deal with it or not.

I always thought when we did the Dangerfield trade it was all a bit too “gentlemanly”. I prefer the club taking a hard line approach. They should stand firm and only accept two first round picks or send him to the draft. He is too good a prospect for someone not to come over the top and swoop….North perhaps?

I am hurting Cat and we are flat track bullies. We proved that by not showing up at the G on Saturday and also getting 50 points down against the Pies earlier in the year.

Their team first philosophy isn’t just words, it’s how they play. Dusty is a prime example. So many times in the finals he could’ve gone for the goal (which he would most likely nail) or go for a crowd pleasing run but instead he hands it off to a teammate in a better position. IMO it is what takes him past Dangerfield as the best player in the game. Danger doesn’t do that, he tries to do it all himself. Cotchin has just become this hard tough inside mid and is also (with the cleaning up of the rooms clip) a role model and inspiration to his team. They now appear a team who can lose a few players and others will just come in and fill their roles…look at what their Reserves did. What an interesting year next year to see how all the other teams attack/emulate their game style. The thing is, as they have clearly stated, no opposition can take their pressure away from them as it is in their control so how do we all attack it? I’m still as flat as Saturday evening after my Crows were humiliated but can’t hep admire the ferocious Tigers who well and truly live up to that name.

A good read Alphingtonian…It seems the Cat list strategy has been heavily influenced around securing Dangerfield and striking for another flag while he is in his prime. They are a bit of an enigma these Cats, how long can you keep topping up before you start to invest more in youth? Yet, they keep making finals and getting very close. it’s a really difficult question to ask isn’t it….are they just unlucky in who they have faced in the finals that knocked them out? I mean they looked so bad against Richmond, so good against Sydney but then came up against the flat track home bullies in the prelim and looked really bad again. On one hand I agree with you that a big drop and massive rebuild looms yet they keep making the top 4 where they have every chance of pinching another flag.

Cameron could become anything so I hope the Crows play hard ball on that one with Brisbane. As for Lever, it appears he is gone but we must stick firm with two first round draft picks for him. The Pies have pick 6 and if they throw in a future first rounder we should send him to the Pies unless the Demons budge.

Sloane was especially good in the first half but the Crouch brothers possessions were nearly always under so much pressure they didn’t hurt them. I just think Pyke needed to try something radical at the end of the third quarter. Throw Betts and Cameron in the middle, anything. The other point that surprised me is where was the antisocial side of it the Hawks are so good at? Why didn’t we try some push and shove in the second half, try and get Dusty and Rance off their games?