The Roar
The Roar

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Joined July 2022

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Agree. It’s why WR are trying to bring in the nations league, because some countries fans care about the WC mainly so commercial deals are priced accordingly which leaves them short outside of the WC.

The Thursday Two-up: Biggest concerns and lessons learned as TRC narratives emerge

To some it is. In some parts of the World people will say only WCs matter and winning series away from home aren’t as important.

The Thursday Two-up: Biggest concerns and lessons learned as TRC narratives emerge

It’s all about finances. For SA, Oz and NZ Lions and WCs make money, the RC not so much, SR even less. For the 6N each year is important and all years combined is worth more than WCs. 6N prize money alone is £5m for the winner down to £1 for 6th. £1m is set aside for the grand slam winner or split between all 6 if no winner. Champions Cup winner gets €1m. Can’t find WC figures. £5m covers the wages of most URC teams for a year.

The Thursday Two-up: Biggest concerns and lessons learned as TRC narratives emerge

Interesting take. So in the last 10 years Ireland have started winning and are about 50% v the 3N teams, it’s only because of imports (who have been longer in ireland than SR at this stage and were unwanted at the Test level). You are right it doesn’t show they are improving because well we have been playing 100+ years. Yes I remember how little SA, NZ and Oz fans cared about losing games this summer at home or last year away. Sure it was all about the running win loss ratio and how two Oz WCs 25 years ago show who is on the right path. Well one of NZRU and RA would seem to agree with you, the other is looking to create a domestic league to build a better system much like what was good about Oz club scene back in the day that produced two WCs, rather than stick with SR that isn’t getting the same results.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

SR squads 5×40 = 200 players. 40 go to ABs or injured leaving 160. NPC starting 15 is 15×14 = 210. Club players starting NPC 50 plus 112 on bench (14×8). On a given week in NPC 50% of people on the field aren’t good enough to make a SR squad. It is great for club players but rubbish for SR players. Add in that Robertson isn’t hands on with his players for these months but a much poorer coaching team and support staff and you see why players might not progress as quickly to test as they do to SR level. Would be better to play home and away in SR and just beef up the SR squads.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

SA have two focuses this WC cycle, win Lions and win WC. SA management is all about getting the right men to take to France, they don’t care about the journey other than to sort though the players.

The Thursday Two-up: Biggest concerns and lessons learned as TRC narratives emerge

It didnt offend, it just seems a weird question to ask as my name shows i am from europe. Plenty here happy to say that NH systems are the same as 20 years ago without pointing out why they think it is and about 200+ SA, Oz and NZ players now in those leagues. If i say NPC is worse than 20 years ago because there are 300 players who are overseas (many in europe) that should be in NPC like 20 years ago I don’t know what I am on about because I’m not local. If you made an NPC teams from Prem and T14 of NZ players and put them in the top division I would be confident that the T14 team would win comfortably, not sure it would SR. If you don’t have competition for places players don’t get use to fighting for the team. Losing 7 NPC squads worth of players means NPC can’t be picky now like they could have been 20 years ago when maybe 30 players were OS.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

I guess we will have to wait till after the WC as France are at home for it, so won’t have to play anyone away.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

There have been 9 WCs. In the first 9 WCs for soccer the winners were Brazil 3, Italy 2, Uragary 2, England 1, Germany 1. I guess France and Argentina should have known they would never win. Since then we have had Brazil 2, Germany 3, Italy 2 with new teams France 2, Argentina 2, Spain 1. Imagine how arrogant fans would of had to have been to tell Germans they had only won one, 20 years previous so were unlikely to win again or that France or Argentina were never going win. Well maybe some fans of Rugby give us a view of what it was like.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

Of the 6 WCs you mention 2 were before Super Rugby was the only league in which the internationals played, it was also not professional. The Oz set up was the best back then as their club scene was the backbone of producing the 91 and 99 winning teams. 2019 was as much influenced by Champions Cup as Super Rugby, and Currie Cup had little if anything to do with it. Which leaves us with the other 3, how many of the winners from 07, 11 or 15 played in NPC or Currie in the 4 years prior to winning, many went to Japan in the SR off season. SA have related Currie to a mid week league and are looking to get the other Currie Cup teams into another league, this is because the 300+ players that made Currie good aren’t there so now have weaker teams. NZRU would do the same but there is no one to play with, they too have lost 300+ players or about 7 NPC squads. Lots of countries have multiple levels going on at the same time but the elite of other countries go back to their top club environment which got the to test level, not another team of a lower standard

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

I don’t disagree that they are different standards. The point which people seem to have missed is that players who should be getting game time to keep them fit for Test rugby are not going to face the same standard as they would in AB camp and the games are just like training. Bent being called into the Irish squad was down to no point flying in someone from Ireland for 20 mins. How well he did was a reflection of the standard of player he was up against not the Irish squad. He left Ireland because none of the 4 teams deemed he was good enough for their squads.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

Depends what you mean by POM, from NH yes, English no.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

The players in England are coached for 9 months of the year by the best coaches in England. In NZ players get the best coaches for half the time and lesser coaches for the other half. Same goes for conditioning etc. If NPC is so good why are the NZRU so afraid of RA looking at a domestic league if NZ already have one. Over 300 NZ players are missing from the NPC, do you think that weakens it. England does not have the same issue and also bulk up their league with OS but NPC not so much.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

In the mid 90s when money started pourged into European Soccer, Europe and South America both had 3 WC winners. As the big leagues have become European and the best players are in the Champions league France have won 2 WCs and Spain also won. The systems are in place so only a matter of time for the NH. SA was like a 50:50 NH/SH based on their players clubs and the coach saying his time in Munster was a big part. The system that produced the Oz teams of domestic clubs in 91, 99 and 03 are no longer there but I guess Oz have won WCs so are more likely to win again compared to France regardless of their improved system. Did the Premership/Champs Cup not produce 03 as fairly sure that was where they came from. Aki, Lowe and JGB seem to improve in the NH system

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

They became number 1 by beating NZ twice away from home aswell as beating Englanf away from home, and SA losing at home to Wales who were over 10 ranking points behind them. Ranks arent always correct but they show form, who was the last team SA beat who were higher than them. NZ and SA just need to win in EOYT and they will be top again it’s that simple.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

They beat Oz in Oz with plenty players rested, if I remember SA didn’t do so well there. Beat Ireland away, no SH team done that since the WC. It is not their fault SH teams didnt travel. Not sure why you think saying France is number 1 makes SA not the World Champions.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

I agree the Celtic nations have been poor in the past. France have been to 3 WC finals, as many as SA. Difference now is NH teams are peaking between WCs were as before they were just rubbish most of the time, I guess NZ didn’t win the series because it wasn’t the WC. Being the best in the World is exactly that and a snapshot in time, winning a WC is different. Believe it or not, rugby matters outside of two months every four years, which might be why NH teams are improving. Ignore it if you want but NH teams are getting better so WC will come. There was a time when Uraguary were the only South American team to have a WC is soccer but as years passed other teams won too.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

The point is players who are meant to be in the AB squad, to stay match fit are playing against semi-pro outfits filled with kids. It is nothing more than a training exercise for them and it is something NZ need to fix. Coaches in NPC are not the SR coaches so what does the play gain from it

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

I have seen bits and pieces and it is what you expect from a level 2 tournament. I just don’t think England or France would send their internationals back to their second division to get game time. Rough figures that sum up why NPC doesn’t work. There are 300+ NZ born/raised players playing professionally overseas. In 2018 there where 61 ex-ABs overseas not sure it has got lower. If all the NZ players played at home, NPC would be good but realistically only half of the NZ players who could play NPC are in the tournament, the other half are off in other leagues. It’s not SR standards, it’s much lower.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

Does the 38 include academy lads. Having 38 players if not including academy would be complete overkill for a 14 game regular season tournament were no one outside of your starting 23 get playing time except injury or suspensions. Even at 38 players that gives you 190 players in Super Rugby, 30 odd with NZ so that leaves you with 160 players provided no one left to go overseas, which they did. If you are counting players in the past no longer good enough for SR (and can’t get a contract in a major league) I could care less about them. If you are including the Super Rugby academy players in your over 200 I doubt they are improving the AB squad members.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

Being World Champions and being the number 1 team in the world is not the same. Are we saying from the day before the WC final in 1991 and the day before the WC final 2011 NZ were never the best team. This year will tell alot about the top 5 but not others teams faults if the champions aren’t winning their games and running at a 60% win ratio while others are at 70%

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

Big issue for me is the SR players only have 4 months in a high pressure environment that is not enough to bring through the next generation. They then drop to NPC where training would not be as high or as good. Spending 8 months in the SR environment will definitely help

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

Not sure it’s that good. There are 5 NZ teams in SR so 150 players. One squad goes to the RC plus some move on after SR leaving about 110 players. These then I assume go into the top 7 teams meaning NPC is at best B Teams but they are playing with team and coach they haven’t been around for 6 months so nothing more than training.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

From people’s comments Ryan is the reason or all the great stuff happening over the last two games. Crusaders are built on their defence so what happens next year if they struggle in defence and Crusaders aren’t SR champions will NZ fans still want him.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

When it’s the only thing keeping you afloat (SR is making even less) you do what your told to get more money. Altrad have shown NZRU is willing to bend to money’s will.

Foster SURVIVES as NZR hails 'magnificent' win over Springboks and declares it's 'a new dawn'

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