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In recent debates over who should replace David Warner to open for Australia, I’ve seen suggestions that Cameron Green’s form declined in the Ashes…
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Can also add Dennis’s 24 wickets at 20 against an equally good Rest of the World team in unofficial Tests in 1971-72. 87 wickets in all with the WSC Supertests. Dennis didn’t do quite as well in WSC in terms of averages as the Windies and SA quicks and Imran but played more games than most and bowled against generally tougher batting lineups than those who played the Australian team.
http://howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/WSC/BowlingAverages.asp
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
V true Gordon but it gives a very misleading impression to kids or relative newcomers to the game who probably assume that the commentators and pundits are actually applying critical thinking and logical standards. Would be better if they just said 300, 400 or 500 wickets or whatever is a great milestone, but never say and he’s passed Lillee or Bradman, certainly not without noting it is a completely unfair comparison.
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
CA actually recognised the WSC stats in a separate category a few years ago, though not included in Test stats.
https://www.cricket.com.au/news/3267780
Dennis didn’t do quite as well in the averages as the top Windies and South African bowlers (Le Roux and Procter) and Imran Khan although the batters he was up against were a bit better than the Australian lineup those guys played many of their games against.
http://howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/WSC/BowlingAverages.asp
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'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
Stokes said so! Though why not, if he’s in your team. Of course we don’t hear them say Alistair Cook was a 50 better than Bradman thanks to scoring 50% more Test runs in an eight year shorter career.
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
But it doesn’t even reflect relative longevity . As I note above, Lindwall played Tests for two years longer than Starc, didn’t miss many through injury, and actually played a lot more cricket over the years of his Test career. But he played 28 fewer Tests and as a result took about 130 fewer wickets. As you say, it’s a great feat to take that many wickets with a very healthy average over a long period. But these lists always a suggest a comparison that is completely misleading, especially to people who are relatively new to the game. Particularly as it’s the one stat they always highlight. US baseball understands stats so much better. Most seasons have exactly the same number of games. But it changed to more games around 1960. When Roger Maris beat Babe Ruth’s season home runs record of 60 in 1961 some people suggested his new record should be 61 with an asterisk as his feat was in a 162 game season while Ruth hit his in a 154 game season. They even made a film about it called 61*. A bit unfair but reflects a better grasp of numbers than cricket media and commentators.
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
Let me clarify this before I write something I may regret. You are calling me stupid for comparing players 80 years apart, when I was criticising others for doing exactly that on the basis of invalid standards of comparison? You accuse me of generational bias, when the only generational bias is to keep implying with these aggregates list that today’s generation is better thanks to the inbuilt bias of a statistic that simply reflects playing more Tests per year, not greater longevity and certainly not greater fitness or stamina? You imply that I suggest Lyon isn’t a great bowler when I said nothing of the sort? Do correct me if I’m wrong, as I wouldn’t want to suggest unfairly such as that we could add lack of reading comprehension and critical skills to your incomprehension of maths and statistical thinking.
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
Though I just remembered Conway, like Wagner is a product of South Africa, not NZ. Came to NZ at 26. So not so relevant when we look at long term comparisons.
Black Caps make Wagner call for second Test after 'shortest retirement ever' speculation
But to call these “great feats” is completely misleading and disrespectful to many of the greats of the past. Lillee played 18 fewer Tests and had a miles better average. He led the attack successfully year after year. Didn’t have his figures boosted with 16 Tests against weak West Indies and Sri Lankan lineups, as Starc has. Players today simply play a lot more Tests every year. Lillee had no official Tests in two of his best years during World Series Cricket and another in the 1971-72 5 unofficial Tests against the World XI, against world class players (Sobers, Gavaskar, Pollock, Zaheer Abbas, Lloyd, Kanhai) – when he took 24 wickets at 20 in 4 matches.
Nor is it a feat of endurance. Ray Lindwall played Tests nearly every year for 14 years and bowled a lot more balls every season than Starc because he played full seasons of Sheffield Shield. Two more years than Starc but 27 fewer Tests, so only 228 wickets. Lindwall had an even better Test average than Lillee. In an equivalent period to Starc’s 12 years Lindwall bowled more than 7,000 more balls than Starc has in all forms of cricket. Also scored 1,500 more runs and spent a lot longer batting (no ODIs or T20s in those days). And don’t get me started on comparing Lyon with Grimmett or O’Reilly. If we are going to compare things let’s compare apples with apples not oranges.
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
Lillee had 18 fewer Tests and had a miles better average. These aggregate lists are a joke.
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights
One element in the debate over whether NZ has an inferiority complex about playing Aus compared to other teams – in the last two series they have been affected by injuries more than we have. Williamson, Boult and Ferguson missed matches last time, this time it’s Conway and Jamieson. Not saying they would have done any better but they get affected more in terms of depth. Hazlewood was the only one injured in 2019-20 and we had Pattinson to replace him. It’s really only in the last several years that NZ has done very well against other teams.
Black Caps make Wagner call for second Test after 'shortest retirement ever' speculation
Whoops! Make that, I don’t think the Windies HAD won a Test against Oz since 2003. 😢
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
Agreed DRS is a very good system. Can’t be perfect but most of the arguments are about fine margins – how many angels on the head of a pin stuff. I.e. not much difference in execution between a shot that makes a fine snick on Snicko and one that misses, or a ball missing the stumps or one shown as nicking them (probably!) on umpire’s call. All you want is consistency and no howlers.
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
Don’t think the Windies have won a single Test against Oz since 2003. They were still a strong team in the 90s. We only play Bangla in Bangla.
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
Yes, but what if we take Phillips’s bowling and Australia’s awful batting in the second innings out of the equation? 😊
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
The record doesn’t show that Inglis is a better bat in red ball cricket.
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
No evidence that Inglis is a better bat than Carey in FC red ball cricket, though Carey has been a bit shaky in Tests lately. Inglis has played one Shield match this season. Carey scored 49 and 90 in his last Shield match in February, in a low scoring match, against a stronger QLD team that included Neser. Has a slightly better FC average than Inglis.
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
Yep I don’t see the problem. Plus reviews are kind of entertaining and suspenseful for crowds and viewers. My big bugbear is the third umpires who waste a lot of time on Snicko – “there seems to be a gap between bat and pad but let’s check that again on Snicko- so if there is a murmur on Snicko that’s more relevant than a gap? Or “nothing on Snicko roll the video right through until it hits the pad”. Just in case some sort of weird physics was going on where the ball went back in time and got a snick passing the bat a second time around”? Thankfully Aussie TMOs Reiffel and Tucker are about the best at getting on with it.
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
Not sure Lyon was that much difference in the second innings, considering how poorly Australia played Phillips. One of our worst displays in a long time. Though the track did seem to really give extra bounce to the offies at one end, while it was relatively docile for the quicks much of the time.
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
It’s an interesting question about whether the Kiwis have a mental barrier with Australia. In one sense it’s natural, or the sort of results you’d expect from two somewhat similar countries where one has a population five times larger and a long tradition of culture of success in cricket. What’s surprising perhaps is that NZ has done well against others at times, especially recently. But not that well. It’s misleading to say “ Against all other opposition since then, they have a positive 86-82 record, with 79 draws. ” In fact, since 1993 they have a losing record against all the other stronger teams – South Africa, England, India and Pakistan. Before last month’s 2-0 win over SA’s 2nd/3rd XI they had a 3-17 record against SA, with only one win in SA, in 1994. Before last month’s farce, NZ’s series record against SA since 1994 was 0 wins, ten losses and two draws. They’ve done better against England, perhaps thanks to similar conditions, but still only notched up 4 Test match wins in England in 30 years. NZ conditions have been a big asset in the Kiwis’ impressive record against India – 7 wins, 10 losses and 12 draws – although they haven’t notched up a single Test win in India in that period.
Test Mortem: Aussie aura living rent free in Kiwi minds, Marnus officially in a form slump, DRS needs review
They did Pierro, and as Gordon points out below, their spinners outperformed Lyon, especially in the 2020-21 series.
Joy of six: Lyon dismembers Black Caps as Aussies surge to commanding win, 1-0 series lead
Actually I should have said might be ahead or equal with them.
Joy of six: Lyon dismembers Black Caps as Aussies surge to commanding win, 1-0 series lead
Could we add C- for Not Enough Mutches? We did have Mutch Starc, Mutch Marsh and Derrull Mutchull. But what the hick ever heppened to Mutch Sentner and Mutch Johnson?
'Keep this up and Australia might wait 16 years before touring next time': The Liebke Report Card
Not so sure about Ashwin BG. Averages 42 in Aus and 50 in SA and has regularly been dropped for a third seamer on tours to those countries, and in England. Jadeja has been poor in England and NZ. But Siraj now makes a handy third seamer.
Joy of six: Lyon dismembers Black Caps as Aussies surge to commanding win, 1-0 series lead
Ashwin didn’t play a role.
Joy of six: Lyon dismembers Black Caps as Aussies surge to commanding win, 1-0 series lead
Good call. I’d lump for Marshall, R Hadlee and either Ambrose or Wasim Akram, but happy to include Dennis or McGrath. Hadlee looking at his best ten years which were pretty unbelievable, mostly in his 30s.
'Harden the F up': No nonsense message that pushed Starc to new heights