Well I wrote this article before the French game. But yes he was good (for most parts) when he came on.
Still think he’s a bit unproven on the wing just yet though. We don’t know what he’s going to be like under the high ball, which is close to the most important thing playing the Springboks, or even the European teams to an extent.

Funny you use the Lomu analogy, as Lomu was kind of similar to SBW. They brought him in quite young and wasn’t really ready for it (he was awful against the French in 1994), and then went on to become a great player. Just a bit worried that might be a similar situation here and the World Cup isn’t an ideal time to find out.

Hope so!

Yea I agree, first 10 minutes were very mediocre. It was good to see the defence hold though. And as you say, this will probably get better as the tournament goes on. On the whole I thought everyone played well, even the one’s I’ve been sceptical of in the past were very good.

I agree, we’ve been in this situation before. Still, I’d rather be playing well heading into the knockout games than not playing well!

Hey Damien,

You use good reasoning for everything you say, and I agree with most of it.

As far as your first question goes… well I’d just like to see more of what we saw in the first 10 of the 2nd half last night… magic! And just to pop up at times, bit like what Guilford is so good at. And also hitting rucks and just general things like that.

I see what you say about Kahui. I think Kahui has gone pretty well when he has played for the AB’s in the past though and he’s played on the wing for them a handful of times. He was probably the best player against the Springboks too.

Thing is with S15, it’s a whole level below test rugby, and especially when playing in a position you’ve never played. He was outstanding against the Sharks in London and played alright against the Stormers. Didn’t think he did much in the final to be honest, but that’s opinion.

I just didn’t think he did enough in the Tri-Nations to convince me. My problem isn’t so much that he’s in the squad, more that he’s in the 22 covering a position that he’s hardly played when we have some very good options available there.

I agree he’s going ok so far. But he’s still unproven. If he comes on the wing against the Springboks, how do we know what he’s going to be like with Morne Steyn continually bombing him? We don’t really, because we’ve never tried it before. That could be costly.

I also agree that it’s good he’s just come in and is playing a role in the team. But there’s a danger there that you can stray away from your natural game too, it happened to me a couple of years ago when I was in a team with good players, so I know from experience what that can be like (although obviously not quite to the same extent of making the All Blacks). He just needs to find his place in the team and become more confident in what he’s doing, I just don’t know that the World Cup is the time to be doing this, particularly in an unfamiliar position.

But good, good insightful comment, you back up all your points well. Possibly just a couple of different opinions between us.

OJ, I just think a winger needs to pop up in the backline at times, and at least hit rucks etc. when they don’t have their hands on the ball. Similar to the way the likes of Guilford and Rokocoko do… not saying that they should be there ahead of them, just drawing the comparison between the work rates. Kahui got through plenty last night, and Jane wasn’t too bad when he was on. SBW possibly suffered a bit because the ball didn’t really go his way, but would love to see more of what he showed in that first ten minutes after halftime, that was magic! Just whether he does show it, is what determines whether he is good enough. You can’t pick players on what they can do, only what they do do.
And just a side note, other thing we didn’t see much of was SBW under the high ball and it’s pretty risky using someone on the wing that is unproven in this area, particularly against teams like SA. But as I say, it’s all opinion based really.

Very good performance by the All Blacks. Between the 10th and 20th minutes they were outstanding. Nonu looked dangerous everytime he had the ball. The tight forwards gained dominance up front and the loosie’s were all outstanding. Backs were slick, SBW showed some good signs of promise with an outstanding offload, just needs to learn his position a bit better. Hopefully the injuries all come right so we have a full strength team for the knockout games.

The comparison between SBW and Donald had nothing to do with looking at them as players. When did I ever mention that in the article? The article was about the coaches continually picking unproven players. Given Donald was the last unproven player that didn’t come off, and Sonny Bill is the current unproven player, I thought it wasn’t a too hard comparison to grasp. But I could have used Jonah Lomu in 1994, Christian Cullen in 1999 (at centre, Leon MacDonald in 2003 (at centre) and Mils Muliaina in 2007 (at centre) as well, I just went for the most recent one.
I’m not saying SBW isn’t up to it, merely suggesting that we have a knack of trying players in big games, which goes on to cost us games.

Yea actually now that I’ve slept on it and watched the game again I’ve decided that he was better than I thought immediately after the game. The ball didn’t really go his way a lot. But yea, still undecided as to whether I’d rather him or Mils/Toeava. If Dagg is injured Mils might come in at fullback anyway.

Can be ironed out in time? Dude this is the World Cup, it’s no time to be using players who still need developing when there’s better options available. It’s the mistake we’ve made in the pass.

And with Stanley, he is very strong on defence and that was all I was comparing the two players on, not on size, speed or X-Factor.

Jeez he was outstanding for 10 minutes after half time… then he went missing after that, hardly featured. Whether that’s enough to justify selection is opinion based I suppose, but it doesn’t do it for me, you got to do more than that.

Ha thanks. In a funny way I hope I’m made to eat my words tonight!

I think in hindsight I wouldn’t have used the Donald comparison and just written the article, after reading a lot of people’s comments. The point about SBW has nothing to do with Donald as a player. It’s the fact that they were both unproven. Even Henry admitted this week that SBW is unproven. I don’t think SBW is a crappy player (and I don’t think Donald is a crappy player either, more just someone who never quite played his best for NZ), I just don’t think he’s ready yet.

And to your second post… you’re right, distributing can be creating, Slade did it very well last week as well I thought, part of the reason Nonu was so good. But given what SBW can do, it seems a waste for him to just pass the ball on everytime he gets it. Would far rather him to take it to the line and either take the tackle or look to offload. Of course, it’s ok to look wide, just not everytime, which he tends to do against Aus/SA, I guess that’s the point I’ve been trying to make.

And completely agree with you about Kaino. I think he’s been our best player this year personally.

Hope you’re right Moaman.
Also agree with you on Boric and Slade!

To answer your questions:

– Donald had been tried before, lots of times, and not worked. Why go back and try something that hasn’t worked? Particularly after Slade came on against Australia in that test last year and was so good in the second half.
– I’m not saying that SBW has done anything bad as such for the All Blacks. It’s more that he just doesn’t do an awful lot. He tends to look to distribute rather than actually create anything most of the time… and well lots of players are capable of doing that.
– Toeava was exceptional in Europe last year and is a player on the improve. I didn’t used to rate him, but he’s gotten better. He covers such a range of positions so well, which no other player in NZ can do. Is he proven? Well he’s more proven than SBW, particularly if you are talking about playing on the wing.
– Thomson was very average against Australia, but the selectors arms were twisted a bit there as Read would have been their first choice. I would have chosen Vito personally, he’s been playing really well, was outstanding when he came on in Brisbane a few weeks ago, one of NZ’s only player. And just remember Thomson had an injury during that game.
– Jane was outstanding last year against everyone. He’s shown that he can do it and is generally pretty good. He’s such a strong runner and can kick and catch which I believe are the main things a winger needs to be able to do.
– As for Benson, that’s kind of the point I was trying to make. He’s a Super player at best, yet SBW doesn’t do an awful lot more the him and he’s considered a star. Crotty is good at NPC level, he’s never really shown it to the same extent at Super level. Defensively, there aren’t many better than Benson Stanley, which was the point I was trying to make.
– I don’t hate any players as such. After Hong Kong last year I defended Donald tirelessly when the blame was exerted on him. As I said, what about Nonu’s awful defence, or Toeava rushing up, or the whole forward pack’s seemingly lack of intensity? But at least those other players have played well in the past and it was just a bad day. Whereas Donald had never really proven himself, yet they went back to him based on a good NPC. SBW I think could be a good player, but you have to be careful when distinguishing between what a player can do and what he actually does. I think he’s been rushed in, he’s not proven. Similar to Lomu in 1994 against France and to an extent Dan Carter at 2003. See, I’m saying the same thing about two of the greatest players of all time.

And lastly, yea that would work. My main issue is that they are using SBW as cover for a position where he is unproven. Mils has played wing (and so has Dagg) and they can both catch and kick and would be able to play there, leaving SBW to just cover the midfield. Just seems pretty late to be finding out whether a player can play a position or not.

Believe me, I’d love it if he was a star on the wing! I just feel like I’ve seen this happen before, and the result always had the All Blacks losing prematurely.

When has SBW really shone against top quality opposition? He doesn’t have half the work rate Nonu does. He’s got potential, and he sure could be a star. But not yet. He is still learning the game. Watch him and just him for the duration of the time he’s on against a top team (Australia or South Africa) and just look at how much he does. Particularly on attack he tends to just distribute rather than create. When the All Blacks played the Springboks in the first Tri-Nations test this year, he threw one offload that led to a try… yet he was anonymous for much of the rest of the time he was on. Nonu gets involved in nearly every phase, he’s got a huge workrate. One offload in 20 minutes just isn’t enough to convince me that he’s the goods. I realise a lot of this is because he is still learning. But that shouldn’t be an excuse. If you’re good enough to be an All Black, and considered a star and keep good players out, you should be capable at that point and time of putting in good performances. He’s been rushed through, just as others have been in recent years. But we shouldn’t be trialling a player in a new position at the World Cup. They’ve had all year to do that, and the end of last year.

I wasn’t so much saying SBW isn’t up to it, more just that he’s unproven against the top teams, as Donald was. When he proves himself against top opposition, then you can justify picking him.

I guess it’s just a matter of opinion. Hope you’re right btw!

But the World Cup isn’t the time to be testing players. That’s what went wrong in 1999, 2003 and 2007. And if they are going to play him, they shouldn’t be playing him in a position where he has hardly played any rugby at all, wing is a much harder position to play than people think and requires a lot of positional play knowledge which would be hard to pick up from 20 minutes playing there.

The thing is that’s the problem. He is always brilliant against weaker teams but never creates the same impact against the top teams, he just goes missing… compare him to Nonu who is always looking for work and getting involved. Playing well against Japan and Tonga really doesn’t count for any more than playing well against Counties or Tasman…

Ok so just to reply to a few comments at once…

I’m not comparing SBW to Stephen Donald as far as player’s go in any way, shape or form. The comparison was the fact that the selectors have knowingly taken an unproven talent into a crunch game. It’s been done before and hasn’t worked. Remember using Mils at centre in 2007? MacDonald at centre in 2003 or Cullen there in 1999? All unproven options that ended up being costly… I’m not saying that SBW isn’t up to it. I’m saying that he he’s unproven and you shouldn’t play unproven talent in a crunch game based on what they ‘might do’ or are ‘capable’ of doing. There’s a few people saying he’s just new to test rugby… well that’s the point, he’s new to test rugby and this isn’t the time to go developing players or taking gambles. They should go with what’s been tried and proven over the past three years.

Remember last time we trialled a superstar on the wing against France. Aka. Jonah Lomu in 1994… and we all know what a disaster that turned out to be. Irrespective of what Jonah went on to do (and he was possibly the greatest winger of all time), that day the move didn’t pay off, and it seems like we are doing a similar thing again.

I always found when performing the haka before a game it almost got you too worked up, and by the time the game came around you were almost flat. A lot of teams in NZ opt not to perform haka’s before crucial games, or just before games, because it can effect their performance. While this isn’t true for all teams, it’s just an interesting point to think about.

Well just two examples of Campo doing something dumb…. 1987 World Cup, he fumbled the ball right near the end in the semifinal against the French, that was quite a blunder. They may have won that game had he secured the ball for his team.
Also in the 1991 quarter final he had a reckless moment nearer to the end which almost saw the Wallabies nearly trip up.
I know that he was a brilliant player, but he was prone to trying too much at times. Just in the same way that Quade Cooper and Sonny Bill Williams do at times.

You say Lomu was less effective once the defenders worked him out. I disagree with that. I know that it’s thrown around a lot but I don’t buy it. The reason he wasn’t so dominant was that teams would put two or three players on Lomu to stop him. This meant that you were effectively playing 15 vs 14 players and opened up gaps elsewhere on the field. One of the reasons why the likes of Cullen were able to look so good.

I’ll agree that Wilson didn’t have as long career as Campo, but I still think he deserves his place (although I suppose I have a wee bit of bias there being an Otago supporter and all). And also, he retired to play cricket, not just because he couldn’t play anymore… not saying that that makes it ok or anything, just stating that that was why he gave it up.

But yea, I just think Campo’s decision making at times could be a bit questionable.

The thing with Campo was that while he could be brilliant, he was just as likely to do something stupid as well. Just ask the 1987 Wallabies. Sure he was a great player, but Wilson was far more consistent while also being simply outstanding, while Lomu was such a dangerous threat on attack whether it be with his ball running or the way he drew multiple defenders opening up gaps elsewhere on the field.

But as I say, it’s all just an opinion based thing 🙂

Hey, good work. It’s always interesting reading everyone’s different takes on these teams.

I’ve been doing a bit of research into a similar sort of list over the past year or so, and while I haven’t completely finished, this is what I’m thinking so far if I was to name a 1st and 2nd XV:

1st XV:
15. Serge Blanco
14. Jeff Wilson
13. Phillipe Sella
12. Mike Gibson
11. Jonah Lomu
10. Dan Carter
9. Gareth Edwards
8. Brian Lochore
7. Richie McCaw
6. Michael Jones
5. John Eales
4. Colin Meads
3. Boy Louw
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
1. Ken Gray

2nd XV:
15. JPR Williams
14. John Kirwan
13. Bruce Robertson
12. Tim Horan
11. David Campese
10. Barry John
9. Danie Craven
8. Buck Shelford
7. Jean-Pierre Rives
6. Ruben Kruger
5. Frik Du Preez
4. Willie John McBride
3. Olo Brown
2. Keith Wood
1. Kevin Skinner

🙂

Hey p.Tah, sorry for the late reply!

As allblackfan says, Michael Collins has been targeted by the Melbourne Storm, although I know the Otago Rugby Union is keen to try to keep him.
I think Brodie Hume is a player of immense potential, he just has that instinct that you don’t often find in players. I played with him for one season when I was younger and it didn’t take me long to realise that he was a very good player, he just made everyone around him better. He is very good on defence, while being a very skillful forward. Don’t know if he’ll ever make it professionally, but if there was going to be one player that would, I would say him.

The other most likely prospects would be; Josh Dickson, a 6 ft 5/6 lock, who is very athletic, a good lineout jumper and also does a lot around the field. And Caleb Gray (of Kings), a halfback, a very intelligent player, dangerous running as well.

There are a couple of others, Tim Tolovae (the Kings 2nd 5) is a very, very good player, but I think he might struggle to make it to the top level because he’s just too small. Still, he would be one of the top midfielders I’ve seen at that age.

Hope this helps answer your question, and again, sorry for the late reply.

Not generally, but this game had to fit in with the television times and all that. So yea, it was played at 5:00 as opposed to in the afternoon.