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Joined November 2023
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I just wrote something similar at the same times as you. Provincial level does not create tribalism, only local clubs do, hence ‘tribe’.
Passionate, visceral, irrational tribalism is vital for any competition to succeed. Is a lack of it damaging Super Rugby?
Thanks Ben, good article. Just my thoughts, but can tribalism develop in a provincial-level competition? This level – NSW, QLD etc has always been a representative level up 1996, with limited games. Now they’re treated like clubs, as part of a long tournament, but it’s hard to get fired up for long periods for those teams with a wider geographic base. Teams based on a state/province or a country are best in smaller doses like world cups. The AFL and NRL work so well because they have that long history and that strong tribal feel. Club rugby has it eg Warringah vs Manly, but that level is sadly neglected.
I’ve been struggling to put my finger on why Super Rugby has declined so far, maybe that’s one reason.
Passionate, visceral, irrational tribalism is vital for any competition to succeed. Is a lack of it damaging Super Rugby?
What sort of ridiculous argument is that? It’s this level of state-based backbiting that’s brought us down. John O’Neill tried to get a centralised model up in 2012 only to be scuttled by QLD/NSW/VIC.
'Our talent is spread too thin': Ex-Wallabies captain urges Rugby Australia to cut Super teams
He belongs in jail? Any evidence for this, or you just don’t like him?
'Our talent is spread too thin': Ex-Wallabies captain urges Rugby Australia to cut Super teams
Sorry what? Kearns is CEO of A.V. Jennings, what’s McLennan got to do with that?
'Our talent is spread too thin': Ex-Wallabies captain urges Rugby Australia to cut Super teams
You can, I’ll conceed that, but it’s bloody hard. Why do people follow Manchester United, or Barcelona, or Collingwood, or South Sydney? Because of the history and the tradition that goes back for over a hundred years, and the generations of fans that have preceded the current supporters. You can’t beat that in sport. I have no interest in cricket any more, but I do still cast an eye on the Ashes. Why? Because of the history and the rivalry.
The BBL and IPL aren’t great arguments to make, T20 was only invented in the early 2000s. Both of these comps were created from scratch – new game, new rules, new players – so there was no other choice, they weren’t competing against existing forms of the game. When expansion clubs are set up in the NFL, they are carefully screened so they will go to cities that have no existing team, have fans of the game that want their own side, and are joining a comp with long history and tradition ie chances of success are maximised.
The Sydney Rays were a brand new rugby club, playing the same 15 man rugby (ok, some rule tweaks) as all the other clubs also in Sydney, many of whom date back to the 19th century. No wonder they were miffed. Why would you support the Sydney Rays when you’ve been supporting the Rats or the Marlins or the Beasts?
'Destroyed the soul of rugby': Ex-NZR boss delivers damning verdict of Super direction - and his plan to fix it
This bloke is spot on, and I won’t hold previous failures on his part against his argument here. A few points to note:
– Super Rugby was the envy of the NH for the first decade or so
– it will NEVER return to those heights of respect (my opinion), the NH has overtaken us
– expansion of SR has killed the product
– correspondingly, SR will never return to the financial health it once enjoyed
– people like tradition in sport – old clubs, records, history etc
– you can’t create a fanbase by creating new teams with no tradition eg the Sydney Rays in the NRC
– rugby has an embarrassment of riches – club sides, provincial levels, and Test matches against multiple legitimate rugby nations. League and AFL don’t have this
Bolster club rugby – fix the grounds up, play entertaining footy with the Test stars playing to create a TV market, and then have a limited SR comp so interest doesn’t flag. Maybe try the NRC again, but with real clubs and a relegation system as the Top 14 has.
Super Rugby as it is now is dead, flog that horse all you like. Provincial level sides like NSW and QLD are too large, and support too diffuse, to carry a long competition.
'Destroyed the soul of rugby': Ex-NZR boss delivers damning verdict of Super direction - and his plan to fix it
Phil, I appreciate your effort to put this all down on paper (pixels?) but I can’t help but feel SR has run its course. The first 15 or so years of SR were magical. Everything was fresh, with professionalism coming to rugby and the Saffas coming back as well. Now, it just feels stale and old, and I don’t think even a Packer Whacker can get the heart beating again.
FWIW, my opinion is that trying to turn provincial rep teams, as they used to be, into club equivalents hasn’t worked. The geographic areas are too large and the supporter base spread too wide. Sport is a very tribal thing, the AFL and NRL show us that, and trying to support what should be a rep team like NSW for the length of a tournament just doesn’t work anymore. Provincial and national sides work best in small doses, like a World Cup or a State of Origin in league, but not in a 20+ week tournament. SR was great at 12 sides, but it expanded too far, and with too many teams in other countries and time zones that meant your team disappeared to 4am starts for a fortnight as they toured.
The European Rugby Champions Cup works so well because it’s clubs on steroids, not provincial sides. The exception is the United Rugby Championship, which is a mix of clubs and provinces/composite teams, such as the Lions, Stormers, Munster and Leinster alongside Benetton, Glasgow, Cardiff and Ospreys.
Go back to the club level and have strong club comps in Sydney, Brisbane and Perth, plus a Melbourne team, and then have a playoff between each plus a limited rep season against NZ and the PI. Club rugby used to be great. Make it so again!
Seven point plan to save Super Rugby
The problem there is that the best players will go and play for the SR sides, assuming they’ll have more cash, and that will then devalue the club competition. A long time ago, the Test players would still turn out for their clubs, which is why the club comp thrived. Then SR and professionalism arrived and the clubs never saw their players again. The Waratahs, Reds etc became the new ‘clubs’. Imagine if none of the international players for Manchester City or Barcelona never actually turned out for the club games, how long would that last?
There’s no reason we couldn’t have clubs in Melbourne and Perth, we’d just need a way to work out a competition structure. As dire as it seems now, rugby has an embarrassment of playing riches. League only has a club comp plus a State of Origin series which is the crown jewel. They have internationals but they’re a pretty poor show. AFL ONLY has a club competition – that’s it.That’s why the games are so well-attended, there’s nothing else to watch. Rugby has club teams, provincial teams, and international games against a large pool of competitive countries. We just have to work out the way to make this sustainable, and tiering the games like rugby in Europe does, or international football does, is the way to go.
CONFIRMED: Rebels fall into voluntary administration as Rugby Australia seeks 'sustainable and successful future'
Is it time to call stumps on Super Rugby? It’s been dead on its feet the last few years, and with only 4 teams why bother playing, and who are we going to play against? I was there for the first game the Tahs played, against Transvaal in 1996, with Alistair Murdoch scoring a double, and there was something magical in the concept for that first decade or so, but it’s been all downhill since. Crowds and support have drifted away and I don’t think they’re coming back.
We need to go back to a club comp in Brisbane and Sydney – revamp the grounds and facilities, and lean heavily on that tribalism that works so well for league and the AFL. Half the Sydney clubs have a history stretching back well before the Roosters and the Bunnies came into existence, you can’t beat that history. Those local derbies in the Shute Shield can still attract large crowds.
Then have a limited provincial rep season – NSW vs Qld, Aus teams vs Kiwi teams etc. – like we used to. Back to the future, it’s the only way!!!
CONFIRMED: Rebels fall into voluntary administration as Rugby Australia seeks 'sustainable and successful future'
Joe is saying all the right things, and seems to be exactly what the Wallabies need. Fingers crossed!
'Not a hit and run': Schmidt explains short-term deal and why he 'surprised' himself by taking Wallabies job
I think piru is on the money re the gear you have to wear in the NFL. Christian Wade is a guy I’m very familiar with, as he spent 3 years at the Bills. In rugby, he’s been clocked at faster than 11m/s (24.6 mph), and he was the third-fastest player in the NFL in the 2019 pre-season, clocking 21mph, 0.1mph behind the fastest player, Saquon Barkley.
There’s a fair bit of variability in all of these clocked speeds, but I think we can agree Rees-Zammit has got plenty of toe. Let’s see how he does at the testing in Florida.
'Nothing about rugby': Wales superstar explains shock call to quit to pursue NFL dream, England set to name new skipper
Keith, I think you’re gunna have to cite some evidence re Tyreek, the guy is pretty damn quick.
'Nothing about rugby': Wales superstar explains shock call to quit to pursue NFL dream, England set to name new skipper
Very true, although the people who have gone previously have been older and not exactly first choice internationals. Jarryd Hayne was doing ok, although he’s a mungo, and Christian Wade was close to getting a run with the Buffalo Bills, the team I support, but was too old and lacked the experience. It is a long shot, but Rees-Zammit is in the best position to crack it, so good luck to him.
'Nothing about rugby': Wales superstar explains shock call to quit to pursue NFL dream, England set to name new skipper
Amen to that, it’s a real weakness for us. The last Wallabies kicker I would say I had complete faith in would be Elton Flatley.
More 'Scary Schmidt' than 'Sleepy Joe': Ireland tales that show the new Wallabies coach could be a polarising figure