The Roar
The Roar

Macca

Roar Rookie

Joined August 2018

0

Views

0

Published

2.9k

Comments

Published

Comments

Macca hasn't published any posts yet

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
You’re right in an argument we aren’t having.
😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Of course there are a lot of considerations in managing a list, however in the specific instance of this pick there was nothing but green lights
1) Did the Suns have a spot on the list to take an extra first rounder this year? Yes they could have forgone Farrar at 60 our any 1 of the 4 rookies.
2) Could they find list space in 2020 or 2021 – given they have plenty of mediocre players which would be out of contract in 1 of those two year Yes.
3) do they have slalary cap space – yes
4) Do they need elite talent – yes.

So having looked at the bigger picture and seeing there was no restrictions to stop the Suns taking an extra first round pick in one of the next 3 years we find your argument pointless. The Suns had the opportunity (and need) to get MORE from their pick and didn’t.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

😂 😂 😂 😂
“I didn’t see the car hit the pole so I can’t tell you if it is wrapped around it or not”
😂 😂 😂

But yes there are numerous factors that come into selection, however given the Suns have no cap space restrictions, no list space restrictions and had the ability to turn pick 11 into much more than 27 we don’t need to judge them on anything other than – did they get the most talent possible onto their list – the answer is obviously “no”.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

What’s common sense is that every recruiter in the industry would have all those players ahead of Farrar by a wide margin. It like you are saying “the doctor told me I have cancer but I can’t be sure becuase I haven’t done my own @n@ lysis”. 😂 😂 😂

You need to realise it is OK to admit your position is untenable. And if my scenario is so “ridiculous” why couldn’t you form an opinion?

We have established there are many factors taken into account, however the overriding factor is always get the best available talent in within the restrictions based on us around selections available, salary cap space, list requirements and list space.

Given the Suns had no restrictions over list space or cap space, need more talent in every department and had a first round selection available they could have used much more effectively the only factor we need to assess is did they get as much talent as possible on to their list – the answer is no.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
You can’t even use your own judgement to know trading a first round pick for a fourth is a bad deal but instead claim “if that’s in the best interest of the list then who am I not to back their judgement” 😂 😂 😂 😂

When you get to that point, where no amount of evidence will change your mind all you can do is laugh.

We have established the Suns could have got a much better deal and had an extra first round pick.
We have established the Suns have the Salary cap space to fit another first round pick in
We have established that the Suns have the list space to fit another first round pick (as simply as not taking 1 of the 5 players they took from 60 and beyond)
We have established the “its cheaper to take a later pick) is the equivalent of between 0.1% and 1% of the Salary cap

The fact that you refuse to answer whether you think Robertson etc are better than Farrar, refuse to think for yourself on trading a first round pick for a fourth and now resort to attacking the blues in order to change the subject just makes this whole thing hilarious.

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 “in shock news the first eagles have just traded their 2021 first round pick to Carlton for their 4th round pick claiming they are looking at the bigger picture and saving $20k over the 2 year contract” 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
“Clubs taking a player who’ll be less cost as a project is normal practice” Becasue they have to, no one chooses a project player over a first round pick if they have the choice, which the Suns do!
A bloke taken at 60 earns roughly $10k less than a first round pick – the only difference in pay are the match fees (roughly $4k a match) plus a games played bonus (max of around $10k). So worst case scenario, the Suns take a 2019 first round pick over Farrar and the kid slays it and plays 22 games a year (and i will assume the project player would play none) for the next 2 years and the Suns are out of pocket $216k more over 2 years for a kid who has played every game.
Of course if the pick 60 actually plays the same amount of games the 2 year saving is only $20k and after the initial contract future contracts would be based on performance so if the both perform the same they would be paid the same presumably.
If the Suns can’t afford to pay that for a first round pick over a 23 year old taken at pick 60 they are in real strife. It is also worth considering is it better to pay $216k extra for a gun that sink $140k into a player who is highly likely to be a dud?
I must say watching you try so hard to find these ridiculous reasons why not taking an extra first round pick was actually a master stoke has been hilarious. 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

“2 kids you’ve rookied” – they took 4 rookies & a player at 60 in the actual draft, take the top 40 rookies, just not one of the other 3 players.
Let me ask you this, which player would be better for the Suns to have Deven, Robertson (or Josh Worrell or Jay RAntall or any of the other players between 22 and 60) or Jye Farrar?
As for “per normal rules” – I am happy to be corrected on this but didn’t the AFL change the rules so that a club has 45 players on their list and they can have as many as 6 rookies and as few as 3 and the senior list floats between 39 and 42? If this is the case, as the suns have more than 3 rookies, they simply switch a rookie across to the senior list and draft less (or no rookies) that year. Again I am simply advocating having an extra 1st round pick on the list instead of an extra rookie,

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

Strip the list? They had 8 spots for draftee’s this year, that isn’t stripping the list?
And I am not advocating “stripping the list” simply using first round picks rather than 4th round or rookie picks to build the list, if you have limited spots available jettison the back end picks not the first round – pretty obvious logic, unless you simply want deny reality.
Every list re-build should be based on getting the best possible talent in, first round picks give you the best chance.
its possible? not really probable that ALL of them are better though is it. For example the year Cox was taken in the rookie draft Glass went pick 11 Gaspar and Haynes went 14 & 16, all of which played more AFL games than Toby McGrath the Eagles first rookie pick. The next year McDogall went 5 and Kerr 18 while the 4 rookies played 1 game between them, 2001 Judd Sampi and Seaby went in the top 22 and Sampi played the least with 78, while 2 of the 3 rookies manged just 3 games. You can find great rookies but the strike rate is much lower than first round picks.
If you do went to advocate taking rookies over first rounders how about the blues take your 2021 first rounder and you can have our first pick in the rookie draft?

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

SO your argument has boiled down to the player they took at 60 and the 4 rookies and whatever supplementary player the might take in future are ALL BETTER than the extra first round pick the could have taken in 2019. And every player currently on the list that will come out of contract in the next 2 years are ALL BETTER than the first round pick they could have had in 2020 or 2021.

“They have spots, stop pretending like they don’t.”

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

They took 5 players after 27, 4 of which were rookies. They have numerous players that are medioccre and will be out of contract either this year, 2020 and 2021.

They have spots, stop pretending like they don’t.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

Ahh so because they have those two they can afford to waste their other concessions and not trade for Martin!
Exactly what I find wrong.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

Why would I complain about the Martin stuff – the blues got him for free, just as I said they would all along. Big win for us.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

Jonboy – Sharp may well be a good player, but it isn’t the player I have an issue with it is the trade.

The Suns traded 2020 11 for 27 that is a terrible deal, they could have easily done any number of better trades like a similar trade to what the blues did for 19 last year and trade 11 for 27 AND the Cats future first or they could have traded 11 and the blues future second round pick (which they should have taken for Martin) for the blues (or Freo’s) 2019 first round pick which would have allowed them to take Flanders at 11, Sharp at 17 and Robertson at 22.

The Suns may well have done well but they could quite easily have done better and they need to do the best they can.

As for the blues Betts kicked Multiple goals against the Tigers, Giants, Lions, Hawks, & Eagles last year and would have won the blues goal kicking by a dozen goals, Martin is well worth the price paid and getting Kemp (who we would have taken at 11) AND Philp is universally viewed as a good deal.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

It is relevant to remember that even a team that looks loaded with young elite talent can end up not having enough elite talent.

The Suns need as much young talent as they can get & they could have had more.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

“That sun’s list is going to be amazing” I remember when the Suns were tipped to beat the blues in their first game by many on this site with a list that was going to be amazing.

They need More, they could have had more.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

It would be unsustainable – assuming that I was advocating that the Suns get given AFL draft concessions every year and that every year they try and turn those concessions into multiple first round picks in perpetuity.

However given I am simply arguing that given the current state of the Suns list and the Salary cap position it is ridiculous to argue that at some point in the next 3 drafts they couldn’t afford take take an extra first round pick it doesn’t need to be “sustained”.

But good to hear you aren’t “denying” the Suns had list spots available or that they had the cap space or that they could have got more for next years 11 that simply 27 this year – you are simply arguing that the Suns list is good enough that they don’t need to get as much high end talent in over the next couple of years as possible. A point of view that is hard to believe given how bad the Suns are and the fact the AFL has just given them massive concessions to enable them to access as much high end talent as possible but if you want to believe it you can I suppose.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

“Again they may not have had room for this more you keep repeating,” They took 5 players after pick 27 this year and you are claiming they wouldn’t have had room for taking an extra first round pick?

” if you don’t have the list spots ” They took 5 players after 27 – they had the list spots.

“a business doesn’t hire ppl if there is no positions or salaries available” There is no way the Suns are paying the full cap this year, or next year and will have banked cap space for at least the next 2 – they have the salary room and they had the positions this year and can easily make room over the next 2 if they needed to.

You can keep trying to claim otherwise but the facts don’t support you.

“if you need a warehouse worker you don’t bring in a ceo Macca.” The Suns need everything.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

“Just because you can get a second piece of cake doesn’t mean it’s the best idea.” When you haven’t eaten in a week it certainly is.

The have plenty of space in their cap, plenty of players who could easily make way for an extra first round pick (such as any of the players they took after Sharp this year) – trying to claim otherwise is just denying basic facts.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

Will pick 11 slide all the way to 27? And as I said before this time last year all the talk was 2019 draft was an “average pool”.

And AGAIN the Suns could have got exactly what they have now and MORE (something you have accepted by making this “they couldn’t fit more in” argument).

And not one of those NT kids “etc” could have made way for a first round pick?

Time to give it up.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

Again they could have brought in MORE.
In just this draft they brought in Farrar with pick 60 and Schoenfeld, Budarick, Conroy and Rosas as Rookies – are you really saying not one of those spots could have been taken by another first round pick?
Are you really saying that not enough mediocre players will come out of contract i 2020 or 2021 that could have been replaced by an extra first round pick in those years?
Again if you can’t accept reality there is no point continuing.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

How many rookie listed players do the Suns have?

And they didn’t need to take 2020 pick 11 in 2019, or even 2020, they could have traded it next year for a 2021 future first. Surely throwing it away at the first opportunity to over pay for pick 27 is much more akin to a sugar fix than any trade I have suggested.

But again, if you can’t accept basic facts there is no point continuing.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

And you will remember the Blues did everything they could to get as many first round picks into the club as possible.

If you can’t admit that the Suns have players that could easily make way for another first round pick in the next 3 years there is no point continuing

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

If this list can’t accomodate “more” in either this year, next year or the year after then they don’t deserve to be an AFL franchise let alone gt the extensive concessions the AFL has gifted them.

There list is laden with mediocre at best players that could easily be replaced by top end talent and their salary cap should have so much space they could heavily front end numerous contracts and still be banking cap space for future years.

To be glutinous you need to take more than you need, the Suns need all they can get.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft

Yep, and if none of those things over ride the primary goal – get the best talent in the door.

If the Suns can’t find room on their list for another first round pick either this year, next year or the year after with player like Holman, Schoenfeld, Horlin Smith or Murdoch currently on the list and are too inept to be able to “front end or back end” that the only way they can avoid salary cap pressure is by not taking too many elite talents the should pack up their tent now and not waste everyone time.

Bolters, sliders, and everything in between: a conversation about the 2019 AFL draft