Yeah, agreed with LK, Mumford is critical for the Swans.

That said, how good were Mike Pyke’s numbers with 13 disposals, 13 hit outs, 5 marks & 6 tackles. That’s a reasonable set of numbers for a number 2 ruckman. Sure, it’ll be a big ask to go number 1 and you’d have to think the best Swans line up would still be Mumford and Seaby, but, Pykey has been consistantly over the last few weeks at least equalling the ‘numbers’ of the opposition ‘number 2’ ruckman if not beating. And some of Pyke’s tap work HAS been top notch. Granted, a Ben Hudson type ruckman still out bodies him a fraction too easily.

JF –

you may be cynical about what you (what we may or may not agree are valid to) include in the ‘bag of tricks’ of which you speak,

however, ….. there are some clear examples of a dirth of tricks.

Clive Palmer and GCU being one.

I think I’d rather some pro-active effort (trickery if you will) than to have a club boss or league boss behaving with contempt to the product.

Matt S –

ah heck – – I can’t even be bothered.

Art –

The main reason there was an increase aggregate was the 6 extra rounds of matches!! That plus an extra game each week, gave you 51 extra games.

the dilemma for the HAL was continuing dropping of attendances in key major metro markets. The regionals are one thing – but, the keys to the big cities are somewhat important.

Also, the lack of strong crowds to mirror on field success. SFC and MVFC both sluggish or dropping despite their success.

Stretching the ‘aggregate’ more thinly is NOT good because each match, each venue will have it’s ‘break even’ point and trending the average attendance across the season nearer to the break even point is NOT GOOD!!!! Simple as that.

AFL next year, with 24 rounds, 2 byes, and GCFC……..well, I’m still waiting to see if North will have to host all 7 interstaters at Etihad to an avg 15K. Will it go sub 35K?? Who knows. But, your prediction is noted.

btw – did you note my Aug 3 prediction that Freo might contemplate ‘throwing’ a game to ensure finished 5th!!

How will GCU go next year if GCFC and GCT are playing??

You need to move on a certain number of players…..who do you move on otherwise??

McDonald’s hammy’s are related to where tissue was removed for his knee op, and perhaps that’s just becomes an old man hammy’s now that he may not fully shake going forward??

Green was missing from the leadership group in 2008 (a playes vote – and he had been injured across the pre-season). He’s certainly now a valuable leader, playing super consistant footy – – exceptionally consistant. He doesn’t seem to have a bad day – – simply, now and then he’ll do what he does and get 5 goals out of it!!!

James McDonald sadly had to finish up. Green does look a natural choice. However, were Grant Thomas coach, he might rotate Colin Sylvia into the role to help his development.

btw – Just drawing attention to the fair call back on Aug 3 The Dockers look safe in the top five.

Would the Dockers contemplate ‘throwing’ a game to ensure a fifth place finish?
.

Obviously the injury to Sandilands has helped make up their minds.

And whilst StKilda did last year pull the same trick and still managed to win – it’s doubtful the Dockers this time around could pull off a Launceston miracle.

Three weeks ago I asked “Would the Dockers contemplate ‘throwing’ a game to ensure a fifth place finish?”.

I know refer all to my crystal ball gazing brilliance!!!!

he did say that the big thing was that given, like cycling, that it’s a ‘weight bearing’ sport – that he hadn’t had the wear and tear – and so it really came down to the drive to do it.

Many former footballers of any code perhaps look to someone making that comment and reflect upon their bung hips, bung ankles and bung knees……

😉

Fussball ist unser leben –

thanx for getting back to it – – it’s interesting to follow through a topic properly and I know I don’t know it all. It’s interesting to get prodded along a bit – – – so, for your part, I thank you.

btw – , never tried to claim the AFL as having a legal ownership stake.

What is clear though is that like in many other cases, the AFL is pumping far more money than any other sports body into venues in which the AFL has no legal ownership.

I presume the ‘sanctity’ of the AFL members is purely contingent upon the AFL ‘licence’ at the venue being paid up and in force.

THe main ‘basic’ right the AFL has is the first option during footy season – – and that’s the right that they are willing to release for up to 10 weeks for a successful WC bid.

The main thing I hope I’ve illustrated – – the AFL has done pretty well for the people of Victoria and the MCC continues to wield perhaps more power than the cricket club alone should warrant!!!! and the common misperception especially outside of Victoria that the MCG is a ‘public funded’ public asset is in first part false and second part probably false too.

cheers, I reckon we can call an end to this one.

Fussball ist unser leben –

if you’re still interested, there were a couple of clarifications (in part or full), around the ‘liceence’ agreement, and the technicality of who actually ‘owns’ the venue vs the land.

Jimbo –

re the Swans crowds,…….”since” 1996……..

nah,……the Swans 30K+ avg this year is better than 2000, 2001 and 2002.

bilbo –

I doubt the Vic based members have reserved seats at the Gabba.

More likely, for it to be a ‘sell out’ is that the public (General Admission) seating is sold out. The rest of the seating is effectively accounted for. Whether season reserved seat holders or Gabba ground members all turn up is another question.

This is seen at the MCG too, a sell out that ‘only’ draws 84,000. The other 16,000 were most likely vacant seats in the broader Members (MCC – cricket club) reserve and AFL members reserve (together accounting for about 45,000 seats).

Jimbo –

you DO realise there are 3 columns, the Home and Away, the Finals and the Overall.

Why oh why are you comparing the overall figure from previous years to the as of Rnd 20 H&A figure for 2010??

Thus far – – the AFL H&A crowds are ahead of the ‘Record line’ if we were watching a swimmer in the pool.

Jimbo – your 3rd point,

The Swans average attendances this year are lower than they were in 1996.

1996 = 24,574
2010 = 30,087

May I ask where you obtained your stats?

F.I.U.L.

I agree on Ireland.

I disagree on PNG, RSA etc. The Aust Dollar goes okay there, and probably provides better bang for your buck than attempting to penetrate fortress Sydney.

Country clubs re your link, as per Forgetmenot, most of it is the changing demographics of rural Australia. IN particular rural Victoria, where, from the Kennett era when the many rural shires were amalgamated, such that towns that used to house a shire depot, and have a shire president and planner etc – – along with Banks, manned RR stations, SEC depots etc etc have all gone to the larger rural centres.

yeah, true, I made an error cutting down a longer list!!!

Good pick up,…. at least someone read that comment!!

😉

which is why, for the GAA, the relationship with the AFL is something they need to nurture rather than reject – – and in saying that, undoubtedly the forces ‘FOR’ the relationship realise this.

The capacity of the GAA to host Australia every couple of years and draw 80,000 to Croke Park is super important. Even if it is a compromise IR game and not ‘pure’ Gaelic Football (even though it looks more like it than it does AFL).

The numbers thus far fully support that just a small number of the Irish lads stick out any longer than a couple of years. For every Kennelly there’s a half dozen who didn’t make it and have returned to Ireland and invariably to the GAA as players with a professional skills/fitness base to build upon. I dare say there are more returns to GAA from AFL than from Rugby or Soccer…….although I acknowledge this pure hunch.

This list is pretty self explanatory of the failure rate :

Out right Success stories –
Sean Wight (1982, VFL debut 1985), 150 games
Jim Stynes (1984, VFL debut 1987), 264 games
Tadhg Kennelly (2001, AFL debut 2001), 175 games, still playing

Partial success stories –
Setanta O’hAilpin (2004, AFL debut 2005), 72 games (still listed)
Martin Clarke (2006, AFL debut, 2006), 46 games (returned to Ireland but apparently interested in coming back).
Colm Begley (2006, AFL debut 2006), 30 games (delisted, returned to Ireland, playing in GAA)

And then it falls right away to guys who actually managed at least 1 game :
Paul Earley (1983, VFL debut 1984), 1 game
Dermot McNichol (1987, AFL debut 1990), 3 games
Brian Stynes (1990, AFL debut 1992), 2 games
Pierce Hanley (2007, AFL debut 2007), 10 games (currently playing with Brisbane)
Michael Quinn (2008, AFL debut 2008), 7 games, still listed at Essendon, doing alright at Bendigo.
Jamie O’Reilly (2009, AFL debut 2010), 1 game, debuted last Saturday, did okay. Might play the rest of the season.

So, over more than 25 years,……it’s hardly a flood.

Amongst the lads to come and go :
James Fahy (Melb), Tom Grehan (Melb), Niall Buckley (Melb), Colin Corkery (Carl), Colm McManamon (Geel), Anthony Tohill (Melb), Nicholas Walsh (Melb), Kevin Devine (Melb), Bernie Collins (WBG), Declan O’Mahoneny (Syd), Aisake O’hAilpin (Carl), Brendan Murphy (Syd), Kevin Dyas (Coll), Michael Shields (Carl), Kyle Coney (Syd), Brian Donnelly (Ade)

The overwhelming majority have returned home within 2 years and are back in the GAA. I do just wonder what the GAA return rate is on 14 yr olds being lured to play soccer/rugby at school is??

currently there’s a few guys like Conor Meredith (North), Zach Tuohy (Carl), Tommy Walsh (StK) and Chris McKaigue (Syd) who are giving it a crack. A few others who have trialled and may or may not be invited to fulfill a rookie listing.

The numbers don’t really stack up. For AFL clubs, quite likely the next 10 years will see PNG, RSA and the Pacific as the new international experiment with kids now learning the real game of Australian Football from a young age, tackling and all as they progress.

Canada of course managed to participate in the ICC world cup back in 1979. However, there seems to have been a lack of progress compare to the other 1979 ‘qualifier’ in Sri Lanka.

I guess, Canada now has a new wave of immigration based growth. Expats galore. We’ve seen through the ’90s the UAE participate in the ICC WC with effectively a full team of ex-pats, and Canada currently has a 1st XI of expats.

The Netherlands side generally has a good number of expat South Africans.
Current Netherlands squad includes :
Expats : Adeel Raja (Pak), Wesley Barresi (RSA), Peter William Borren (NZ), Mudassar Bukhari (Pak), Tom Cooper (NSW-Aust), Bradley Kruger (RSA), Bernard Loots (RSA), Mohammad Kashif (Pak), Eric Szwarczynski (RSA)
Local born Netherlands players : Steven T de Bruin, Tom Heggelman,Mark Jonkman,Maurits Jonkman, Nick Statham, Bas Zuiderent
Not sure : Wilfred Diepeveen, Pieter Seelaar

But, then, there’s England, and they have a long list of expat South Africans, the odd Australian, Irish, West Indies sourced and so on.

So, if it’s good enough for mother England, then, roll on the South Asian Canadians, and the worldly Dutch, and whomever else can provide an odd collection of players to wear the national crest.

Tom –

certainly Chris Johnson had a reasonably out of character ‘explosion’ that sticks in everyone’s minds – – as for me too, that comes first to mind for an on field poor show.

However, the worst by far ‘ambassador’ over the years was drunken Brendon Fevola in the pub!!!!

HIt might’ve been the 2nd test of the 2006 series over in Dublin where the game degenerated quickly – but, it was actually some ‘clumsy’ knees and legs first tackling by the Irish that set the agenda. However, they might not have thought it that bad, however,….

…….I do gather what tends to muddy these contests is that what is ‘acceptable’ in GAA is deemed unacceptable (if not cowardly) in AFL and what is ‘acceptable’ in AFL is deemed unacceptable (if not cowardly) in the GAA.

Jimbo –

You said AFL average crowds this year are actually lower than 2009, 2008, 2007 and 2006.

May I draw your attention to the following

Year Attendance GM Ave.
2010, 5942478, 160, 37140
2009, 6370350, 176, 36195
2008, 6511255, 176, 36996
2007, 6475521, 176, 36793
2006, 6204056, 176, 35250

Gee, that looks like your very first, and most easily confirmed statement – – is totally false.

Doesn’t do much for your credibiility. Does it.

Why did you bother??

Agreed with Kurt –

the old Brisbane Bears was something that could NOT be repeated.

The deals afforded to the Crows and Eagles back at establishment were pretty ruddy good in locking away a lot of local talent, including already drafted talent,…….I think Tregenza had been drafted by the Doggies, Jameson to North, amongst others.

This time around, if you’ve re-signed your players – you’ll get the chance to trade for the Suns and GWS currency of draft picks. Otherwise, you’ll lose uncontracted players but get later picks as compensation.

Not too bad. There’s no such thing as a perfect plan in this situation.

MattS

General admission seating is level 3 – – it’s not unusual for 15,000 to be relatively packed in level 3 and only 8,000 sparsely distributed on lvls’ 1 and 2. Unlike a Carlton or Essendon, I don’t think North have a huge number of people taking up level 1 reserved seating for the 11 home games. And StKilda,……they didn’t turn up in big numbers to an away game,…….I guess they’re saving their dollars for the upcoming expenses of a September finals campaign (I can’t blame them, if North were assured, with the kids and all, I’d be doing likewise).
Don’t forget, it is NOT in Docklands interest to over state any AFL crowd.

btw –

this is one of the best succints of it I’ve seen — sadly it’s off bigfooty, but, I’ve seen enough of the info to know this person has it on the nose.

So without the federal and state government capital grants the MCC would have made a $1.1 mil profit in 2008 and a $4.1mil profit in 2007.

The debts of the MCC to redevelop the ground are in their balance sheet.

Quote:
Interest bearing loans and borrowings__ 2008__ 2007
Current Liabilities ($’000 )_________9,629 17,626
Non- Current Liabilities ($’000 )__ 318,518 327,983

The MCG redevelopment cost $434mil. The state government chipped in $77mil when the federal government pulled out it’s $90mil proposed contribution because it wanted certain workplace conditions on the site for them to hand over the monies. Grollo constructions and the unions had an agreement the feds didn’t like so no monies were granted. The MCC went out and borrowed $357mil to pay for the redevelopment. . The MCC having 99,000+ members allowed them to go and borrow $357mil for the redevelopment

The deal struck with the AFL was that they would contribute $6mil per year for 32 years and from members funds $29mil for 20 years would be allocated to repayments. The MCC only put up fees by a bit less than $100 per year once the new stands were finished. At a bit more than $500 it’s a great deal and that’s why they have 175,000 on the waiting list.

So football people, via the AFL it’s members and it’s clubs and fans and MCC members who really want to watch the 40+ games of footy are paying for the redevelopment. As can be see from above the MCC aren’t screwing footy fans as they don’t make huge profits without those government grants

So when a crowd of 30,000 turns up, it is the MCC bankers who do well out of the footy people rather than the MCC or the AFL clubs. The clubs don’t get much of the other revenue streams from the MCG. Collingwood were able to get a good deal because they have the numbers and were able to negotiate better facilities for their corporates. Maybe the MCC members need to pay a little more if the AFL clubs are going to do better out of the MCC

and this is what transpired basically last year, the MCC members pay a tad more for a pretty good value proposition anyway, and the AFL clubs get a bit more on games at the ‘G.

Fussball –

yes, we’ve gone through the regular event and normal commercial operations revenue – – – which is the regular ‘rental’/tenancy arrangements.

You still haven’t acknowledged the AFL annual payments as part of the funding mix for the stadium rebuilds back at the outset.

You haven’t acknowledged the $8 million ‘AFL revenue’ line item in the MCC’s revenue statement. (did you scroll down – – it’s page 20 of the document.

re the ‘license’ arrangement – it’s referred to here SGV-AFL Agreement
1. The licence agreement between the MCC and the AFL being extended by five years, ensuring football and the AFL Grand Final remains at the MCG until at least 2037.

Note also re tenants – The tenancy of football and cricket authorities does not preclude other events such as concerts and rugby and soccer matches being staged at the ground when fixturing allows.

Cricket is technically a tenant – – but, Cricket Victoria is not committing extra funding to the MCG redevelopment. That’s left to the MCC and AFL.

btw – what the AFL effectively ‘bought’ was the AFL members reserve, all of about 23,000 seats. By comparison the MCC members reserve is about 22,000 seats……so, b/w the 2, you’re looking at 45,000 seats (important come GF day). At the time the AFL also got shiney new offices within the GSS at the MCG and was able to move out of the ancient Jolimont House. Obviously since, the AFL has it’s HQ at Docklands within a complex it will within 15 years own outright.

This is part of the complexity that over hangs that the old VFL had intended to take it’s finals and GF to VFL park, and sold VFL park memberships on that premise. However, State Govt blocked planning approval to expand VFL Park over 100K capacity. And effectively blocked the movement of the GF out there.

The AFL then effectively gave up on VFL Park (it was needed big time expenditure just to maintain, about $30 million – – which is the amount that AFL instead spent to buy the rights to own Docklands after 25 years).

So, with the Govt screwing over the AFL/VFL in the ’80s, the AFL focussed on the MCG and how to house it’s VFL/AFL members at the MCG and clearly they needed some new and improved facilities. The Southern Stand was ancient, and the MCC had the Wing on the Northern Stand side. The MCC and cricket didn’t really need to built a big new stadium. It was largely the want of the AFL and is why the AFL was contracted to pay for a good amount of it.

Note re “the MCG is owned by the State Government of Victoria “,

technically, the State Govt via the MCG trust only owns the land.
The MCC carries the debt and also carries the asset value in it’s accounts. The AFL doesn’t carry either the debt or the asset value – – but is a critical partner in the arrangements. Alas, as partnerships go – – it’s not been all smooth sailing, and that includes about 10 years back when Carlton in particular were testing dangerous waters around the right of a venue to ‘own’ the broadcast rights to the ‘events’ within that venue. The Brack’s Govt supported the MCG against the AFL on this front. Don’t ever underestimate the complexities behind the issue – – as it’s evolved over the last 10 years you can see how huge the financials are for the code to own it’s product rather than the venue. Sure, might be easy to say that it never would’ve gone the other way – – but, it did see Princes Park canned as a venue and Ian Collins and the AFL have had very strained relationship since (including his current role as management head at Docklands Stadium.)