The Roar
The Roar

Munro Mike

Roar Rookie

Joined September 2018









A major reason the expansion AFL teams (Suns/Giants) were badly beaten early on was that they were massively oriented to drafted young players. That gave them very tradeable commodities as time progressed – however – they’ve rarely attracted quality established players.

So that’s with a regulated workforce – – drafts, free agents, trading window.

I’m not sure how the NRL would manage it??

And you’re right – the “top down” model has no guarantee of a pay-off in junior participation.

re the Swans – – there’s a few layers there. The old South Melbourne that moved to Sydney already had the Riverina region of NSW in their recruiting “zone”. That meant they came to Sydney with about 10 NSW born/bred players and a NSW born/bred coach.

Over the time – the vast majority of Swans captains have been NSW (and/or ACT) products. Yes – many from Wagga to Albury; however retired captains in Jarrad McVeigh and Kieran Jack were Sydney products.

A lot comes down to the structures in place – there was a Sydney scholarship program running previously – and ‘graduates’ of that include ruckman Jarrod Witts (Sydney born/bred) who was picked up by Collingwood and now plays on the Gold Coast. Not so obvious a Sydney product. The Swans now have a very, very good academy program running – – – however have also made massive gains in access to schools including a lot of the traditional Rugby private schools.

Sydney doesn't hurt NRL expansion, it helps it

Dots on a map.

Sydney doesn't hurt NRL expansion, it helps it

I’m glad you’ve put a bit of perspective on the NRL memberships (relative to AFL).

Think along these lines – the TOTAL Sydney NRL club membership tally is less than the combined Richmond/Collingwood alone.

The NRL and AFL have a commonality – – a (said by many to be over supply) majority of teams in the home city of the competition (Sydney, grown out of the NSWRL; and Melbourne, grown out of the VFL).

However the AFL pretty well “owns” Melbourne; and for that matter Adelaide and Perth. The NRL doesn’t “own” Sydney. Soccer dominates participation; Union owned private schools; the AFL via the Swans have the biggest attended side. The “Home bastion” of Sydney is a watered down version of the AFL’s “Home bastion” of Melbourne.

So…..the challenge for the NRL is to “own” Sydney. This is where I always suggest they are too far behind to try to go fully national (and don’t have the participation base to do it anyway). The reason I say this (“to far behind”) is that the AFL has a minimum 2 teams in each mainland market. The NRL really needs to edge out Union and Soccer in Sydney and for that matter S-E Qld. Both Union and Soccer at gettable at the moment.

Sydney doesn't hurt NRL expansion, it helps it

“I am not convinced that a German-style 50+1 membership, fan-owned model would work. For starters, that type of fan culture is not ingrained in Australia. ”

Ahhh…….not quite.

That’s a very Sydney-centric comment I suspect.

In the Australian context – the AFL is mostly built around 100% member owned model with a board answerable to the members; where upon any group of members can run for the board or push for an EGM.

The big difference – – the Sydney NRL clubs total combined membership is less than the combined membership of Collingwood and Richmond.

The AFL has a boradcast revenue centralised revenue model; in addition to the clubs generating vitally large revenue via memberships.

There’ve been rumblings back in the ’80s and even ’90s around some form of “super league”. The ’80s was forecasting a true national competition……in the end; that became an expanded VFL. Economic pragmatists at the time would probably convince us that an expanded VFL based national league could never work…….but it has. Largely because loyalty/tribalism sometimes trumps “marketing”.

Lessons for Australian sport from the Super League debacle

What is astounding – that list of Sydney based memberships……is covered by Collingwood and Richmond combined.

And expansion……to Tassie or anywhere outside of NSW-QLD would be a FIFA enterprise.

The Storm has been in Melbourne for over 20 years and there’s stuff all RL no the ground and the Storm are effectively the most successful Queensland side over that timeframe.

You’ve got to be very, very careful about following “imagined” scenarios of rivalry and the like. Does the AFL strongly benefit from any NSW-QLD rivalry? Does the Rugby Australia strongly benefit from any Vic-NSW rivalry?

And going into Tasmania…….at any time is really, really tricky. If you base the side in Launceston than people in the south will ignore it; and vice-versa.

And WA….a one off SoO match; first then factor out how many people travelled in especially for it. Even NSW-QLD expats over in WA say in the mining regions; are far more likely to make a once off effort to get to the SoO than be relied upon as every 2nd week attendees at a regular season match of a fabricated new entity when they could much more easily tune in on Kayo and watch the teams they’ve actually supported since childhood.

A simple plan for NRL expansion

re soccer… the top end…..a few of those players might need to learn to get by on a couple of million a year instead of 50mill!!! We know the only real reason any EPL side isn’t profitable is player salaries.

It is interesting though – – in the midst of the Covid crisis…….to put forward something like this proposition. We saw in Jan KPMG estimate (as sample of ) twenty of Europe’s biggest clubs lost more than €1bn in revenue over the past year while almost 10% has been knocked off players’ average values.

I do wonder about whether the positioning is based a smidge on sports-covid forecasting.

How the European Super League can be good for football

All good.

Like anything – it’s interesting to observe.

We’ve seen a variety of sports….tennis…golf….and in this country the Packer Cricket revolution. There’s often a some point where there either is or at least a threat of a “break away”.

We even had that in Australian Football back in the VFL days…..pushing for a national super league type scenario. While that particular one didn’t happen – – it’s interesting revisiting the possibilities at the time and relating that to what DID actually pan out. That’s the main reason I asked…….as I’m pretty sure something will come of all this.

How the European Super League can be good for football


I’m actually trying to work out what Rellum’s scope is.

The assertion ” industries eat themselves alive till there is only one left”……is only so true. That’s the law of the jungle survival of the fittest……but a superficial take on it – – in that the natural world/the law of the jungle rarely sees one species decimate another (unless it’s by the hand of humankind).

So the human approach to sports? I figured Rellum was focussed on the Australian context to a fair degree via this statement:

“In time the only sports they will be high profile will be the NFL, Euro Top League(what ever that is) and the NBA. Maybe Cricket will stick around with the IPL and the NRL and AFL might maintain some presence but down the road the massive media pull of these few mega comps will destroy all the others, through fans and player talent.”

And so we came to my discussion from the Australian context of an industry eating itself.

The “soccer” industry in Australia seems to feast on itself. The A-League is the latest incarnation… feels like the local instance as with many nations is backwater stuff….the pointy end of the pyramid (of the world game) attracts all the money to a small number of leagues and in some respects a smallish number of mega clubs predominantly with-in those leagues. Which is where this notion of the “SuperLeague” feels like a natural evolution of an unregulated “industry eating itself”.

Btw – I fully understand the distinction between the AFL, THE AFL and Australian Football.

What I do wonder……this latest “SuperLeague” proposal…..getting shot down now…..but is it just the opening gambit. What’s the end game and when and what will the next move be? I’d be interested in what you feel is likely to happen? Is there a “revolution” to come??

How the European Super League can be good for football

It’s a nice story – – alas my North Melbourne side jsut couldn’t combat her influence – she was a major factor in Collingwood getting to the prelim – that’s for sure.

Thankfully the AFL have gone aggressively on establishing the AFLW – there were so many footy loving girls playing basketball or soccer because that’s all there was for them.

AFLW award vindicates sport switch for Brianna Davey


I’d argue however – – this is the dilemma for soccer.

The problem has ALWAYS been that the A-League is not just fighting the other 3 pro football codes in this country; and not just that over summer they suddenly found themselves up against and losing the broadcasting battle with the BBL cricket offering……no….the real issue for soccer in Australia is that the international market is saturated.

In basketball…’s really just the NBA……there’s other Euro leagues etc but in reality it’s the NBA or bust. The NBL can muddle along and has found a niche for young players seeking a pro-contract prior to NBA eligibility.

Soccer though……there’s the EPL, there’s the Bundeliga, Serie-A, Spanish, French……and then the UEFA Nations and Champions leagues…….and that’s just Europe.

I can see your concern specifically for the world of soccer…..but there’s more to the world than that.

And the internet??……the internet actually allows people to follow their team(s) better. Streaming Kayo… an example…..allows AFL followers to specifically follow their team irrespective of what Ch.7 has on. Very few people have so much spare time to fill with watching heaps and heaps of other sports………..there’s more to life.

How the European Super League can be good for football

Were that to happen then it already would have.

Australia is like a microcosm of the world. Austraila is arguably – per capita – the worlds most competitive domestic football market (4 pro leagues including one local code). But also up against so many other sport, Olympic and otherwise including cricket.

Back in the late ’80s/early ’90s I thought American sports were going to take over… particular basketball.

Why hasn’t it? Why hasn’t soccer taken over?

Using the Australian microcosm…….the biggest viewership and association with sports is the AFL. 100% local. Cricket……largely only take real close notice of the home series and less so the away series. Why?

Local is still prefered.

A Europ ‘mega league’…….will be big in Europe. For those who care. But unless there’s a game in town every week then it’s too distant to dominate and kill off all opposition.

We’ve seen that in the Australian microcosm. The code with the League with the best mainland cut through is the AFL; mainly because of a minimum 2 clubs/teams per mainland state……..there’s a local game every week. You need that local presence.

And why do the Matildas struggle for recognition in AFL states? Because the AFLW girls are more local; more available for media and promotion and more visible via the profile of the regular league matches.

So……..don’t worry……the sky won’t fall in on you anytime soon.

How the European Super League can be good for football

I do think there’s too many people with 19th century romantic associations to the game.

You’re absolutely right about the business side of it.

We need only look at how centralised the talent and money in the game becomes. Private ownership is part of but not the entire problem.

Looking around the top 20 leagues for average attendances and outside the top couple of leagues is astounding how quickly it falls away.

Largely because most leagues have one or two powerhouse clubs (where all the money is). Is there serious league competition? No. Are there equalisation measuures? No. The top clubs need to have free reign to compete in the champions leagues etc. So…..why is a huge club playing ‘local/park’ sport against some 2 bit club with a 2nd rate ground able to fit 5,000 standing? It makes no sense.

A super league is somewhat a logical progression.

The interesting question would be – – would such a league become too big; to powerful; to big a money spinner that international representation would take a serious hit? (even if no bans imposed). Ultimately it’s the club paying the bills…..not the national representation.

How the European Super League can be good for football

The irony of this situation is it illustrates how via private ownership that big soccer has sold its soul.

Seriously – when you go so far down the money line……..where does the train end up at??

Soccer already is awfully ‘biased’ (in the sense of a lawn bowl). A small number of big leagues and even in the leagues such as Italian and Spanish; there’s a peak couple of BIG teams and the rest are really just peripheral (get to bask in the glow of their mightier – better funded – opposition).

In too many cases the fans have long since gone from being fans to being ‘subscribers’.

The ‘Super League’ is everything that football isn’t

When you watch the initial long vision – – note the point at which Duncan leaps. About 48 metres?

Hall was kicking from about 53 metres?

Where did the contact happen? Around 50-51 metres. Duncan lept not just up but at Hall. That’s what should have seen him done for.

He’s smashed into Hall and landed behind Hall (such was his momentum).

Note that Duncan was still in the air as he hit Hall and Hall had only just landed on his feet after the act of kicking.

So……..anyone suggesting Duncan innocently jumped “up” trying to touch the ball is forgiving his recklessness just a smidge too easily.

Duncan provided the momentum (the force for the severity of what should be labelled “high impact”).
Duncan jumped and in doing so – that’s why it was “high contact”.
Was it careless? Damn right it was. He specifically launched himself with his moment straight at the kicker. And then turned his back as he realised how much he’s stuffed it up and was about to smash into him.

Should it have been cited…Damn right it should’ve.

Let Geelong appeal and go to the tribunal if need be.

There’s a reason we don’t see this happening every week……..because all the other players get it right the vast majority of the time. Duncan got it wrong…..the outcome is there to be seen……he has effectively run a red light and cleaned someone up. It’s not defence that he was going quicker than he realised and didn’t mean it and couldn’t stop!!

Should North Melbourne have received a free-kick after this collision?

……says he due to the absence of a meaningful life to distract from such banality.

Gambles backfire for Blues as Queensland take charge in Shield final

Well how about the “GOAT” worry about pitching the ball up a smidge more and threatening the stumps….that was over the top by a mile, and it’s kinda embarrassing (desperate) that he’s appealling so forcefully for that.

If I was umpiring that I’d suggest “Going over by a mile; no get on with it”.

The GOAT's perfect response to Marnus deciding to pad up

I’m trying to work out what this is hoping to achieve.

Let’s say a handful of UK based Fijians who have already “left home” return……to…..wait for it… Sydney.

It’s effectively a Fijian expats side. Isn’t it?

Gee….the AFL could do that…..they could have the 19th team from Tassie and the 20th team be a “world team”……which could fly into Fiji, or LA or London to play the odd game but be based in Melbourne.

You haven’t told me yet what the pay off is back in Fiji.

Two Pacific Island teams given green light to join Super Rugby in 2022

Well – NSW in big trouble on day 1 and Hughes gone for 19.

Roll on the 2nd innings…..

Daniel Hughes' Test hopes on line in Sheffield Shield final

I agree –

The first reading of this is that they are dressed up international sides geared predominantly towards expats in NZ (Auckland) and Australia (Sydney).

Just what benefit flows back to the Pacific island nations themselves would be interesting.

Would part of the set up require ‘development’ programs in the nations ostensibly represented by these sides?

Or would it be just a largely superficial gimmick to expand the competition without breaking down the current regional/state identities.

Just what is the benefit to Fiji if – for example – just a couple of token games are played locally (just not economically viable) and all the players/staff etc are based in Sydney or Auckland?? Would that just ensure that any aspirational Fijian talent will pack up and head to Australia (or NZ) asap and try to rise to prominance there?? I would doubt that ‘feeder’ sides were limited to local comps based in Fiji or whereever else.

Two Pacific Island teams given green light to join Super Rugby in 2022

An odd number of teams is largely pointless – – in that it doesn’t provide an extra game each round. It might stretch the season out??

And extra TWO teams provides an extra game each round and can even allow a shortening of the season (rounds) with extra games still factored in.

"Do it for the right reasons": Abdo says NRL won't force expansion

There’s also been an issue at many venues – – be it the AFL, even the NBL basketball (as wife/son noticed last night).

Members are excluded from their member reserved seats.

The 75% limits are still trying to disperse/separate people……..

……it’s probably no ones fault but it’s not ideal.

Despite its clear quality, the A-League is being swamped by revitalised winter codes

NSW squad: Sean Abbott, Harry Conway, Trent Copeland, Jack Edwards, Matthew Gilkes, Josh Hazlewood, Lachlan Hearne, Baxter Holt, Daniel Hughes, Nathan Lyon, Peter Nevill, Kurtis Patterson, Jason Sangha, Tanveer Sangha, Mitchell Starc


What’s the best XI we can come up with out of that?

NSW should leave Mitchell Starc out of the side for the Shield final

The main problem with the ‘spirit’ of it all is that if you get tackled promptly (with effectively no prior)……you’re best off letting the ball be “knocked” clear rather than attempting disposal where you might end up throwing it (if the tackler locks an arm).

But that’s the art and skill of tackling……give the player with the ball “enough rope”.

My problem is the seemingly arbitrary holding the ball when a guy gets wrapped up, ball locked in – gone to ground with the tackler and perhaps a second tackler joins in…….and the umpire decides to call it holding the ball. The problem is with three umpires across the field that we can get glaring inconsistencies. Some umpires are more willing to call it a draw and throw it up. Others are the ‘hanging’ judges.

Remember when holding the ball made sense?

Chris Donlon is a very good umpire – – he got this right (really had no option).

Were the Pies dudded by this controversial deliberate behind call?

Well we know going back some of the secrets of success passed on by Imran Khan (including the judicious use of a bottle top).

Part of it back then was actually understanding what could be achieved and how to exploit it. But the tampering element was there to ensure you could do that; and to hasten the conditioning of the ball to do that.

It’s been happening for some time.

And in fairness to Starc – – that was his first ‘peak’ of getting his average below 27. The second peak of 26.75 was achieved in the 2nd test vs India last summer…..and his last 10 tests at that stage included cashing in against poor showings from Pak, NZ and SL sides that toured Australia. That was after Starc had tried to tweak his action.

Starc's Sheffield Shield flop puts Ashes spot at risk