You are absolutely spot on atlas. The headline, article and thread itself are surreal and def a poor reflection of this site and roarers in general.

And to think editors probably thought their readers would have ‘a good laugh’ with the headline’s pun and casual tone of this article is even more disappointing. They basically see their readers as a bunch of brainless neanderthals incapable of discerning right from wrong (well and they have a point looking at this thread).

This would be #mediawatch material (and more/worse) if the roar had a bigger reach. Am gobsmacked.

Thanks for posting this neville, just talked about it with a saffa who didn’t know the link!

Agree with what Mains says except the part about ‘ensuring the 300 saffas playing overseas come home’. I think he’s being overly optimistic here, many would not come back, not if the country does not change.

Imo many/most rugby guys who left SA did so for the same reasons 2m white saffas left in the last 2 decades. It was not only a rugby decision, it was a life changing decision. Even if tomorrow SA were offering better salaries in rugby i reckon many would stil choose to leave if the system, govt and SA society remains the same i.e corrupt. Guys like Rathbone had it all there yet they left. Bernard le Roux had just been offered a SR pro contract at the Bulls when he left for France with the equiv of 100 euros in his pocket. Have read dozens of stories like this.

When you feel your own govt wants you out, does not value your and your kids and does not want you to be part of country’s future chances are many will eventually leave, rugby or not. Many saffas i have met keep telling me ‘nick if you were a talented 18yo saffa in today’s SA you would look elsewhere too, I know I would and that’s what I did’. And they are probabky right.

Agree with your first sentence pk. And it’s not only the players who have left but some of their best ppl. No country can keep high standards when they lose millions of their most educated ppl. That’s why imo it’s not only a rugby problem they have but a social one.

The 1.5 or2M saffas who are now overseas are/were obviously not all Boks material but am sure there were a few Haylett-Petty, Wes Goosen, Rathbone, Vickerman, Le roux etc in the lot.

re SR, am not against it and love it obviously but I think in a country with an already strong domestic structure like SA it should have been better managed and cc should have been givem more respect. If you want numbers at youth/amateur level you need to dream small before you dream big, thats why its important to keep strong local and regional structures. I have no doubt the CC could have become a strong fully professional comp, alongside SR perhaps. .

Agree with all the above, these AB were outstanding and ‘saved’ what would have been a poor RC on and off the field.

Thought overall attendance was poor (too many 15k to 40k crowds, this should never happen, drop prices if needed) and disinterested.

My fav player of the comp was Reece Hodge: how good was it to see a no nonsense goal kicker with no pre kicking routine/ritual. Ball in hand, tee, 5sec later boom. Massive boot a plus.

I wish we could invite these AB to the next 6N. I know the rugby played by the 6 northerners does not justify this but the unique intensity and flavor of the tournament would make it special: 6N teams and supporters do not treat tours the same way they do the 6N and the passion and intensity on and off the field would be awesome. We didn’t get that in this RC I think and that was probably my biggest disappointment. AB at Twickenham, Cardiff etc for a 6N would be something (at least for us euros and kiwis).

I think he would have been released Nick, cause they have no choice. Same with Vermeulen and Kitschoff, Toulon and Bordeaux released them in June (and weren’t happy about that).

The only thing clubs can do is play hard ball and ask players to come back between tests (when you have a weekend off in between) as I think they ‘only’ have to release the players 5 days before a test. But its a tricky thing to do.

The way I see it is that it’s not ‘only’ a World Rugby or even clubs problem but mainly a players issue: they are the ones who have to be clear and strong and stop chasing euros/pounds/jpy, in all sports, at club AND international level. Why is it always the same sports/countries that have these issues i.e rugby, athletics, league etc cause it involves poorer nations (P.I, Africa for athletics etc) or newer countries (oz, nz, sa for example) for whom representing your NT doesn’t mean the same. Look at what happened in league, you had aussies playing for nz and kiwis playing for Oz, is it NH’s fault again!? Obviously not.

Kenyans, Somalis etc in athletics and P.I in rugby are economic migrants seeking a better life elsewhere. Saffas are social/political (and philosophical) migrants who have realised their govt and rugby federation had given up on them etc. There is not much WR, clubs etc can do against that, migrants will always find a way to get what they want (money, or ‘genuinely’ a new adoptive country to love). Hundreds of Georgians, Romanians have played in France for decades, yet they stick to their NT. If Gorgodze had been a saffa, kiwi or islander he would have said NO to his NT at 18yo and wait to get picked for France. Players are the ones to blame imo. Look at Brad Thorn, Jarred Hayne, Craig Gower etc they have no problem representing 2 or 3 nations. It’s a cultural thing. I watch a lot of ski and all winter sports and we don’t have these issues why cause all countries involved are ‘rich and old’ and no Kenyan, Fijian, saffa, kiwi have the skills required. A French will never ‘run’ for Germany or Norway, a yank for france or Switzerland etc. Its not only a rugby problem but a world/cultural one. Rugby at international level will always be like that.

PS: I still remember the first (of my generation) kiwi and saffa to be picked for france, Tony Marsh, Pieter de Villiers and Brian Liebenberg. After 2-3 years they had been playing club footy journos started talking about the 3 years residency rule (something we didn’t know much about then) and asked our nt coaches if they would consider picking these guys. Answer was “well it’s not only up to us, ask them where does their allegiance lay first’. Most of us fans thought “naaa, a proud saffa or kiwi will NEVER say yes to us and a definite NO to the AB or Boks jersey, that’s not the way it works, these guys are like us’. We were wrong.

Some players in some countries are willing to wear ANY nt jersey. They are the ones who create the market.

Fed 1 is obviously french 3rd div, sorry

“Will Genia is one obvious case in point. He has proven in 2016 beyond any doubt that he is the best Australian 9 by far, but he was not available for the summer series against England because of commitments to his club, Stade Francais.”

Not the case Nick. Stade Francais season was over in June. Genia was not picked by Cheika because he was still in recovery mode following his injury and subsequent knee surgery. Genia played only 4 games last season for SF, probably a dozen less than he played for the wallabies despite being contracted and paid by the club. SF has to be praised for not rushing Genia back into the team earlier and ensuring he would peak for the wallabies in the RC (missing top 14 start of the season). Genia has played more games for the wallabies since joining SF last year (tours, rc, wc…) than for his club. Salaries were paid by the club and the overly generous medicare system, not a bad deal I reckon!

I think sh players willing to play for their nt will still be able to do so but we will see more and more flexible contracts with/without international games. Sh players who aren’t too greedy and who love their nt should be able to do both.

But until sh countries realise having a solid domestic structure is key to keep your talent the exodus will continue. Am absolutely sure some super rugby journeymen earn less in sr than they would in say fed 1 (french first div). When you produce too many players and only offer 150-200 pro jobs you are going to lose ppl simple as that. SH chose to have a small elite and give all to the 30 odd players who make the nt which ks fair enough but they can’t complain that many of their players who don’t make the pro cut in their country look elsewhere for work. This would happen in any industry.

Completely agree with moaman (and Brett), Folau has been very average in this RC, probably one of the weakest wallabies backs. Genia, DHP and Kerevi had a good tournament, Foley was ‘ok’ considering it was his first RC at 12 and QC played better than expected. No doubt Folau underperformed and after a pretty average SR season it’s pretty normal (and healthy) to ask ‘what’s next’ which is exactly what Brett has done in his article! Plus big boots like Hodge and DHP (at 15) might just be what the wallabies need when under pressure.

Really don’t get the spiteful/snide comments on this thread!

I remember Gaffie, suzie, not so much your 9!

Jantjies in particular had a shocker. What a poor kicking game he and Goosen had! Struggled to find touch (except at the restart!) and when they did the gain was minimal. I know Morne’s not the next big thing in SA rugby but he at least still has that right. His kick in the 2nd half (30-40m gain) was simply brilliant.

Problem is you guys couldn’t do anything with this 5-10m lineout! You got the ball but it seems your once unmatched driving maul skills are gone.How come?!

Watched it with my saffa mate and told him it was the first time I had seen a/such poor boks kickers at 10/12/15 both in terms of accuracy and distance b/no driving maul skills whatsoever c/ no one in the midfield capable of breaking the line until Willem brought some much needed strength. There was nothing boks about this team.

Du Toit and Hougaard were imo the only 2 boks who deserve 6-7 (maybe even 8 for ptsdt, what an outstanding young man he is.)

I think Genia has proven during the RC that Oz currently doesn’t have the luxury of overlooking its overseas based players. So imo we should keep the current 60caps rule, only thing is to use it more wisely perhaps.

Re Pumas diving, the ones I blame are the blokes at WR who have over sanitized the game in recent years. These days players know that if they stay on the ground an extra second or 2 or dive/fall heavily/clumsily tmo will be called and their opponent is likely to get booked. The argies and others are only exploiting silly rules. QC’s yc is a joke the same way Habana’s yc after slipping and accidentally taking out a player a few weeks back was laughable. But that’s ‘modern rugby’ WR wants. Games are now full of ‘did I just see a neck roll’ or ‘wasn’t this tackle too high’ , ‘did he use his arms? Hmmm seemed a bit high’ moments.

As an aside I also think Pumas players have lost the fire/passion they had a few years back when wearing their national colours meant something. These days the same 25-30 blokes play together all year round only difference is the colour of the jersey and the team’s nickname. A pseudo NT for 6 months and a mentally tired NT for the rest of the year is imo not the solution and not the way to expand your pool of players and value the jersey; imo it cheapens it. Club rugby and domestic club comps are the essence of rugby/sports in general.

Poor crowd again.

The argies have played 60min of good rugby so far this season, talk about an overstatement! A couple of months ago everyone on here was in agreement that the Jaguares had been pretty disappointing in SR. Since then they beat a weak France b team in June on home soil and got touched up 26-0 by the same weak french b team the following week.

I havent seen anything special from them in this RC against what most ppl refer to as the weakest Boks team ever in round 1 and 2 so last week was probably the first time in a while that they played some decent footy. As an aside, the pumas were not the first to do well against the blacks for 60 odd min and end up 30 points behind. The list is very long and in fact the Welsh did exactly this in June for longer periods of time.

So Pumas still have a lot to prove. Have seen much better Pumas sides in the past when most of their players were based overseas. Imo they have become softer and are in danger of losing their abrasive style (bit like the boks and french).

Thanks for the reply suzy, very much reflects what I have seen here and completely agree with all your points. I love that ‘older’ saffas who moved here decades ago still have the boks in their blood. In my experience it’s mostly the 30-40yo with young families who moved here recently who have sort of decided to move on (both physically and their ‘identity’) and fully adopt their new country, even the wallabies (!).

Have to say everytime they tell me ‘oh I support the wallabies now’ they get a ‘come on don’t tell me that’ from me! I think for many of them ‘things’ have happened back in SA hence the move. Good luck in nz next weekend 😉

300 rugby players based overseas isnt that much if you consider 1.5 to 2m saffas (mostly white, educated etc) live overseas suzy. It’s not a rugby problem you guys have its a political/economical/identity one.

The vast majority of the saffas I have met here in oz feel SA government has given up on them and their kids thats why they themselves gave up on SA and left the country. Most of them are seekers, they want to be adopted by a country that will respect them and their kids. First thing they do once they get here is ditch their SA passport and apply for an aussie one. I always ask them ‘do you still barrack for the boks’: reckon over half of them say ‘no’, especially the ones who came here in the last 10 years (for security and safety reasons mostly and also the quotas preventing their kids from studying what they want)

Many feel they have been betrayed and abandoned by the govt(i can see why) and feel they have been ‘forced’ out. That’s my experience with the many very nice, well educated, hard working saffas I have met here (onky my good saffa mate still barracks for the boks, something i have noticed among the ones who left during apartheid. )

So the 300 odd saffas who use their rugby skills to get an opportunity overseas are not the main issue. If I were you guys I would worry more about the thousands of doctors, engineers, scientists etc who have left SA and moved permanently overseas.

And when I read interviews from your rugby guys I hear pretty much the same

Yep completely agree with Hansen. I think kiwi 10 are given all necessary tools to blossom in the nz rugby set up: encouraged by coaches, protected by refs etc they express themselves naturally from day 1.

Was talking abiut that with my saffa mate a couple of weeks ago and we were comparing the kiwi model to france or old SA (in his case) where late tackles by backrowers or other forwards on 10s were encouraged and ingrained in our rugby culture (kids, teens and adults) That’s why imo our 10s don’t look as ‘natural’ and instinctive when they reach 20-25yo. They have feared being smashed by bigger guys all their life and learnt to play accordingly. May explain why they rarely seek and find the best option when they have the ball, they know they have a second or 2 before they get hit, legally or not. A Barrett in comparison plays his own game as he has probably never been inhibited by external factors the same way saffas or french players have.

Great, great post punter, you nailed it.

Re Jantjies when he got injured am pretty sure I read that he was out till at least test 3 and possibly the whole series and it seems he is now a chance of playing in test 1 or 2!? That’s great news but I hope he is not rushed in Boks side (am selfish and am still thinking SR finals 😉

great insight thanks for that baylion.

I think there is some truth in what you say tigranes. I say ‘some’ because I still think no team or nations is immune to having an off-day. (many anglo, german, Scandinavian, oz, kiwi etc teams have had heavy losses in many sports against non anglos) and also its hard to know if you’re losing because of your inconsistency or simply because your opponents are simply much better than you?

I would not compare the brasil v Germany game (2 football superpowers) with the France v AB. France losing by 50 pts last year was imo a fair reflection of the difference between them and the kiwis. The ‘strange’ result was to lose by only 1 in 2011. Teams who can potentially lose against anyone from 1 to 12 or even 15 (like the French vs tonga, Italy etc) can and even should lose by 50pts vs AB.

Re the argies, when you look at their results in the last 10-15 years they have been pretty good and consistent at international level. Perhaps if argies were aussies they would even say ‘we have been punching above our weight’ (if you take everything into consideration)? Perhaps its our expectations of them or others which were too high?

I think some teams/nations (perhaps latin, Mediterranean, Slavic etc) are more divided, passionate and more prone to outbursts of frustration, anger etc than others who perhaps control their emotions better. Those regions are culturally completely different and have issues that stable countries like say Oz do not have (that’s why am here!). We have different factions within the team, unity is often fragile. players do not always accept coaches’ authority etc.

In france we often talk about the ‘British phlegm’ but I think aussies and kiwis are also fairly phlegmatic. They rarely lose it and know better ways to deal with their frustration or discontent. Anyway hard to know (started talking bs so better stop here)

Great piece Brett and good on you for writing those quality yet non click-bait stories many of your fellow writers don’t even look at.

Lions games have been a highlight of my SR w-e for a few years now but in 2016 they are just on another planet. I see them as the last ‘people’s team’ in today’s world pro rugby as most of those guys also play club rugby together in the Currie cup with the Golden Lions. If you add SR to it that’s 10 months of rugby as a group, that’s what I call a rugby club. I saw recently that Faf who was until now contracted with the Pumas during the CC had finally signed a full contract with the Lions at both SR and CC level. Love the energy in this group of players.

Most of those guys have won the last CC so they know finals footy and I think they will be a chance during the finals. The added bonus for me is that I very much enjoy thinking about the many roarers and writers who have asked for Lions to be axed for years now (without ever watching them play, of course). 🙂

It is a very odd piece antoni, I agree. (do most aussies think like this? hope not). Tbh I don’t get the blasé tone of this article, why now? Is this Real Madrid more dominant or ‘galactic’ than 1950’s Real with Di Stefano, Puskas and Kopa that won 5 in a row?

How about AC Milan in the 1990s with Baresi, Maldini, Rijkaard, Gullit, Van Basten etc? Football has always been like this, great players want to play from the same great clubs who just happen to also be the richest. I get that aussies love their salary-capped, franchise comps (I like them too, for different reasons) thing is many other nations see things differently. Perhaps its possible to enjoy both systems without necessarily bagging one over the other?

Perso I like the fact that european club football has been able to occasionally assemble some of the greatest players of their generation in the same teams.

I have NB. Just feel oz distances make it near impossible to work in the country or really see its diversity easily. Plus small villages or towns are imo not as pretty as in europe or japan, no old bridges and houses or cobbled streets etc. Homes look like temporary accommodation in my mind.

I love tassie though and much prefer nz countryside than oz. Different taste i guess.

Cheers guys. Had giteau in mind but its true nz has moved on from 12 like mauger or DC.

Backline if AB really, really need to win by 20 or more: A.Smith-Barrett-Savea-Crotty-Fekitoa-B.Smith-McKenzie

Backline if they really, really, really need to win by 20 or more: A.Smith-Cruden-Naholo-Ngatai-Fekitoa-B.Smith-Dagg

Backline once RC is won to keep the troops happy: TKB-Sopoaga-Savea-Ngatai-Tamanivalu-B.Smith-Mckenzie

@kiwis, has there been any talks of moving a guy like Barrett to the centres either as a second five eight or a 13 a la conrad smith?

Daveski, Japanese countryside is wonderful, imo ten times more diverse than what we have in oz. Great choice.

well (my bad) 7 with jantjies but he is injured till at least test 3 I think? My priority would have been to cap guys like Marx before they head overseas.

Would have loved to see an Ireland vs Lions (full strength) mid-week game.

Only 5-6 Lions in this squad! Don’t think I have ever seen a SA franchise so dominant at SR level. What a brilliant match that was, Boshoff slotted right in but all tens would do well next to Faf. mom for me.