Chicken and the egg. Coach or roster? All I can say is that on Sunday 14 of the 17 Penrith players were developed by the club. 12 of the 17 Brisbane players were developed by the club. How do young players become NRL quality players? Coaching. How do young men running around for the St Clare Comets end up playing in a grand final? Coaching.

In Cleary’s case, he debuted most of players and played a huge role in developing them. Coaching is not just tactics. What about conditioning, nutrition, defensive techniques, mental wellness? If it was only about the roster St George would have won a premiership long before Bennett got there.

A truly great coach, takes a roster, moulds it and builds a team. It takes time, but as we have seen with Bennett, Bellamy, Robinson and now Cleary, give the coaches the time and resources and something special can happen.

Take Walters, in his second year at the Broncos. He inherited a decent roster, but it won the wooden spoon before he got there. What changed? Coaching.

One final factor is the back office. Without a decent GM, CEO and commercial manager, you will still struggle. You need the support and investment from the back office or dumb decisions like out sourcing your NSW cup team will be made.

Dumb decisions like building your center of excellence in the middle of Sydney, not where your massive, growing, junior teams area is.

Dumb decision like signing players on ten year contracts, making a prop your highest paid player, or having 60% of your cap tied up in five players only one of which is a spine player.

Dumb decisions like making an ex player with no senior executive experience, the CEO.

Dumb decisions like making your new coach somebody that has never coached before, not even a junior team or U11’s. I wish I was making this up.

As brilliant as Ivan Cleary is, or Bellamy, or Bennett, without the right back office behind them, they will fail.

The perfect retort would be “he has to catch me first”. An unlikely occurence, I would say.

“the consequences of his actions”. What “actions” are those exactly? I really don’t get it. He says “chill you idiots” after they made death threats against him. He retaliated against Reese Walsh after Walsh head butted him first. After years of the Eels calling the Panthers their little brother he says “we are the daddies now”. Just banter.

Meanwhile Munster and Smith (now Holmes as well) are seen with white powder in some photos. Haas is arrested for intimidating a policeman. Fifita is in jail in Bali for three days.

I actually don’t think its a bid deal about the other players incidents. Young men get in trouble, it happens. But what I don’t get is this attack by you on a guy whose main offence seems to be his banter and self confidence. What gives GB?

He will easily stack on 5kgs playing Union. He will have love handles in no time at all, standing still during games watching big humans wrestle on the floor, followed by watching somebody kick.

In fact, he might have to watch what he eats now he won’t be getting the fitness work he’s used to. On the plus side, his career will be longer now he will be running less and tackling less. His body will be in much better shape.

Tago is usually a good defender but he definitely looked rusty that night. His running game was not as strong either. I hope the game has blown out the cobwebs and he is ready to go on Sunday and we can see the footwork and balance he is known for.

I saw the title and I was already on my biggest, highest soap box until I started reading. I climbed off, put it and the step ladder back in the garage, no need for the soap box today. Very droll The Great One!

Your body shapes argument has had a big impact on how the game is played. As players have got bigger and bigger, mobility has decreased, its just physics. The game has become a wrestle on the floor between massive, absolutely huge forwards. The wrestle is usually interrupted by a penalty for some indiscretion nobody understands. Is that enjoyable to watch?

I think Union has deteriorated as a spectacle over the last 20 years. If you like watching people take place kicks, then your enjoyment will have increased.

If sporting talent only featured in kids in the wealthy suburbs and schools, the elitist approach to sport would work really well. The trouble is, damn commoners keep producing talented athletes, it must be really annoying for Union.

The elitist approach in the UK and Australia to a lesser extent, also applies in management in big corporates and jobs in the city too. Doesn’t work that well there either. Damn commoners keep producing kids with brains and talent.

Heaven forbid we create a society where kids from all economic demographics get a chance to maximise their sporting and intellectual talent.

I think you are being sarcastic, but go on, I’ll bite.

I hate to say it, but the NSW pack isn’t in the same class as the Panthers, Hass has a great engine and all, but when the bullets are flying you need somebody who is going to stand up to the QLD pack, Leota and JFH are tough mofos. Hass is a good athlete. RCG, Paulo? Have a look at the 2022 grand final. JFH and Leota dominated them.

For the Panthers, when JFH or Leota come off, Leniu comes on, another tough, uncompromising forward. NSW ignored him and played Utoikamanu, Saifiti, and Paulo. QLD were crapping themselves……..

As a Penrith fan, I’m not used to being hated for being a tall poppy. I was more used to pity. Ahh well, thems the breaks.

Besides the Clearys, the other links between the Warriors is your coach, an assistant here last year and Greg Alexander. After his brother died he went to NZ and played for the Warriors and captained your great club for a while. Sadly, for you and for us, after his brother’s death he was never the same as a player. In his prime he was just brilliant and exciting to watch. Good luck tonight, I will be cheering you on against the evil empire!

Shame on you Jeremy. The Panthers have JFH and Leota in their team. Two proud Kiwis and yet you choose to support the massive machine that is the Broncos. Backed by News Corp, blessed with endless 7 day turnarounds and Friday night football and with an entire city to draw players from.
Penrith is a small town, the club is owned by the locals and has two Kiwi props in the front row. What are you thinking!!!!!
As for AFB and Hass, JFH says hello….

I used to think the 91 team was more talented, but after watching this team over the last three years I am not so sure. Who makes a combined team? Alexander over Luai, leave Nathan at halfback. Fittler over Tago at centre. Cartwright over Sorenson. Royce over Kenny (Kenny might prove to be better over his career, let’s see). That’s it.

Nobody else is better in their position than the current players. Turuva/May and To’o would eat Smith and Mackay for breakfast. Fish and Leota would destroy Dunn and Clark. Edwards vs Barwick? Stop it, you are killing me.

The bench would be interesting. Geyer and Leniu – now that is some serious firepower. Imagine having Leota and Fish bashing you for the first 20 minutes and then these two come on?

I think only five out of 17 players from the 91 team would make the current team.

The 91 team will always be my sentimental favourite for being the team that one the first premiership and for the pleasure of watching Fittler and Alexander in their prime. But this current team is a different class.

Foreman vs Ali. The rumble in the jungle. Fast forward to the mangling in Melbourne. The Storm threw everything they had, the Panthers were pinned to the ropes getting battered. They smashed the Panthers to pulp for 30 minutes, throwing haymakers like the legendary Foreman. That tackle on Yeo cut him in half. It must have hurt. All they needed to do was maintain that for 80 minutes, 15 rounds.

With Ali they used to only talk about his skill, not his toughness and fitness. As he proved repeatedly, the man was nails hard and a superb athlete in his prime. The Panthers? Nobody talks much about the Panther’s fitness and toughness. Its all about their defence, their kicking and the star halfback.

They were getting smashed, pinned to the ropes taking massive body shots. Then as the Storm tired, they raised their intensity to “eleven” and the Storm had nothing left in the tank. They had punched themselves out. A half time rest wasn’t enough to recharge. Their cornerman did everything thing they could. The Panthers were too tough, too fit and just too ornery to let up and finished them off in the second half.

Mike has focused on a blueprint to beat the Panthers. I saw it differently. The Storm were at their home ground, Cleary was missing, they had the perfect start. That night was the first time I though a threepeat could be possible. The toughness under duress during that 30 minutes of intense football by the Storm, highlighted the qualities of the team more than any 40 point flogging.

Suallii was born in Penrith and played for the Glenmore Park Brumbies. Another club, not Penrith, signed him and whether it was Kings or, whoever doesn’t matter. The point is, he is a Penrith local and yet ended up at South’s.

How do you get more elite junior coming through if you can’t force them to sign with you? Anybody can offer a Panthers local a contract. In the case of Suallii, somebody did. It is far from uninterruptible if other clubs start scouting the area.

Clubs have got to do the work. It’s not hard to hire a talent scout to come and watch teams in the Penrith area every week. Not a long drive for any Sydney club.

Furthermore, for most teenagers Penrith is probably the worst place in Sydney to live. No beaches, no nightlife, no decent restaurants, no elite sponsors.

In the end, all I hear are excuses. Clubs won’t invest in development and recruitment, it takes effort, vision, money. The returns aren’t immediate, but it is essential to the lifeblood of every team.

How does that make the slightest bit of difference? The West Tigers and the Eels sit in massive junior areas and the Roosters have no juniors. At the end of the day you can only sign 30 players and a team at each junior level. There is nothing stopping any team going anywhere in Australia to recruit players. Clubs just use this as an excuse. Jams Fisher Harris was recruited from NZ. There was nothing stopping West Tigers recruiting him. Suallii was signed from Glenmore park, a Penrith suburb. The West Tigers could have signed him. Kids are not indentured to play for their local club.
Just to drive this point home further, the Panthers have been sat in this massive junior area since 1967, why weren’t they dominating from the get go? The only advantage they get from that is there are plenty of teams to watch locally and so they don’t have to drive all over Sydney to watch young players. Sadly, for many years I had to watch my team sit inside the huge junior base, winning wooden spoons and not making the semi-finals for ten years straight.
I think Gordon has it right “Good Board + good front office + good coaching + good recruitment & retention = premiership contending team”.
Recruitment and retention has nothing to do with how far you have to drive to watch kids play.

Haha, I’m not surprised you say that. If you look up the word “intense” there’s a picture of Ricky. It would make Chuck Norris nearly blink. Note, I said nearly.

Mike, I’m not sure if you are old enough to have seen Ricky play in his prime. He was a tough, fierce competitor who niggled and scrapped for every yard. If there was a loose ball in the floor, he would push his own grandmother out of the way to get to it. I reckon the team is modelled in his image.
To be fair, he was a very skilful halfback. But he would smash your face in, just as easily as throw a huge cut put pass. The angry half back. It was a superpower.

What a brilliant article. Thought provoking, sprinkled with data and chock full of reasoned analysis. Best of all you didn’t mention the refs, or make some judgement as to why you don’t like the cut of a players jib.

It’s exactly what NRL 360, or alternatively called “Blokes gossiping about
footy and talking bollocks”, is not.

Well done Sir!

I like this format Mike, good idea. What a great time of year it is in the NRL. So much at stake in so many games. Literally every game this week will have a bearing on the top eight. The Broncos v Eels and Raiders v Storm probably the pick of the bunch. I might have square eyes this weekend!

I would like the players to front up like Graham Annesley does and talk the media through the mistakes they make and publicly admit they were wrong. “I dropped the ball here and I admit it was a mistake”. We should have a spot for coaches too ” I admit I should never have put Salmon in the centres to mark Cody Walker. I won’t do it again”.

The Annesley press conferences are like public hangings, people must get their justice. This constant berating of the refs is so tiresome. I am not singling you out Paul, you are in a queue a mile long like the scene in Airplane where the passengers queue to beat the hysterical woman.

As for Luai, his shoulder charge was a limp lettuce and the fine makes sense. The amount of force used in a reckless tackle must be a factor in determining the punishment. The more force, the more reckless the tackle. You suggest he should be banned the same amount of time as Brown who made forceful direct contact on an upright, not falling, player. That makes no sense, but I understand you don’t like Luai. Why not mention the Storm centre who pulled his hair. I would have thought that’s pretty cowardly. Or WIghton talking to the referee and only getting a fine?

The richest club in the NRL. A one city club. A massive juniors base. Guaranteed Friday night football nearly every week helping them rake the sponsorship dollars in. A huge stadium set up perfectly to maximise corporate dollars. Friendly media due to their relationship with Newscorp. A roster chocked full of rep players. A team that had Wayne Bennett coaching it a few years before.

Of course they don’t need five years to become competitive again. They already had everything in place they needed to be successful.

That is not the same as the Dogs with their star players a rookie five eighth and a winger, combined with a roster of dross. A team failing to make the semi finals for five years. A management team that lost its way so badly it outsourced its reserve grade to save money and then wondered why there junior development wasn’t very good (a mistake also made by The Panthers and since corrected).

As a Panthers man I love Hoss Cartwright and good on him being loyal to his team, but he is in no position to lecture Gus. Considering the natural advantages the Broncos have, it is incredible they won a wooden spoon.

Good analysis Mike. Even if Kennedy is available, you still need your middle forwards to give you space to move. Or if you are the Panthers, your back five and the middle forwards.

The thing that has stood out to me the last few times the Panthers have played the Sharks is that their forwards are soft and unfit. I think the Sharks got outside the Panthers only once in 80 minutes. They just struggle against the good teams to make yards through the middle and as gifted as Hynes is, being rushed to make decisions will just lead to errors.

How good would Hynes be behind the Panthers or Broncos forward packs? Almost unstoppable.

Looking from the outside, you are in Gus’s “journeyman” phase. When he arrived at the Panthers to find mediocrity, poor culture and to be frank, complete rubbish in the playing ranks. Quickly, Gus worked on a strategy with the board and came up with the “Development Club” idea. He announced they were going to become a development club and build from within adding a sprinkling of players from outside when gaps emerged.

Panthers fans thought a “sprinkling” mean’t stars like Thurston. We weren’t expecting the signings of Clint Newton and Ciraldo, a bit like your disdain for Salmon, good player but….. He was asked in an interview “why” ? No disrespect to Newton and Ciraldo, they were really no better than the players the Panther’s already had.

Gus said the culture at Penrith was poor. The young players coming through need to learn what it takes to be an NRL player from seasoned players with a professional attitude, who do the right things on and off the field. He said he knew that Cirlado and Newton are journeyman (those two must have loved being described that way, thanks Gus!) but he had interviewed people who knew the players so he knew they were the right fit. He said, “I told them it won’t be easy because it will be like doing a shift down the mines. The club is in a bad state and they are going to show the youngsters what needs to be done”.

Buzz Rothfield said he had heard rumours there are may players at the Dogs who can’t hack the intensity that Ciraldo is trying to introduce. The intensity that produces winners. I think Gus is trying to get players, journeyman who aren’t the finished article yet, but who are going to show others what it takes to be an NRL player. He is getting rid of the players who can’t hack it and right now the Dogs can’t sign stars. When the time is right, it is easy to move journeyman on, they aren’t expensive and every club needs them.

You just need patience. You are in year two and expect to making the semi finals with a roster that only has a handful of genuine quality players. Or, alternatively you can sack the coach. Again. Sack the GM and the Board. Again. What could possibly go wrong?

Your comment doesn’t explain the mediocre performance over the other 50 years of the Panther existence when the huge junior area was there to be exploited. Or the Eels lack of success for 40 years, or West Tigers, who both have huge junior areas. A large junior area means nothing if you do nothing with it. Explain how the Roosters have been successful with a junior catchment you could throw a blanket over. I saw some children in the Eastern Suburbs once, turned out it was a family visiting from Campbeltown. How about the Storm? How many kids play league in Melbourne?

There is absolutely nothing stopping any NRL scout signing kids from the Panthers junior competitions, or Dubbo, or any country area you care to name. The size of the catchment and its demographic mix are irrelevant. Suallii is from Glenmore Park, a Penrith suburb near the stadium. Somehow South’s signed him to their junior system.

You need investment in coaches and scouts. Good sports science management. Patience to let players grow and learn. Be willing to give players a chance in first grade when the time is right. That just a start. I am sure there are many other factors to consider, but the size of the catchment is not one of them.

Luck? Maybe, but that virtually sidelines the achievements of every club. The Roosters double winning side? Luck. The Broncos 90’s team? Luck. The Storm’s noughties team? Luck. The Eels treble winners? Luck. Its funny how certain clubs get to be lucky on multiple occasions and in different eras. Its almost like you just have to wait your turn to be lucky and enjoy it while it lasts.

Great article Mike, setting the scene for a brilliant discussion below. Very interesting and informative and a credit to the contributors of the Roar. If only Fox Sports could hold such balanced and informative discussion eh?

The class struggle continues, as it always has. I am not a fan of PVL’s politicking and selective use of facts. It is hard for negotiations to progress in the toxic environment created by this approach. To add to this, Fox Sports and News are now starting to make personal attacks on Clint Newton to try and make things worse. The JWH approach. Play the man, not the ball.

As an aside, who knew that Kauai was so eloquent? His on field persona is of somebody who wants to tear your head off and sh*t down your neck. Books, covers and all that.