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The Roar

Renato CARINI

Roar Rookie

Joined April 2020

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Love Test cricket, love cricket history and love Victor Trumper. Also, enjoy the ODI world cups but the T20s and regular ODIs are just money-making garbage. Sorry. Like the Olympics, soccer World Cup and NRL finals, too.

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Bernie

Isn’t trying to rewrite the history books

He’s trying to rewrite the analysis of the history books.

Players should score as many as they can but it’s up to the critics to decide which have a major impact.

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

You have missed the point, Astro

He’s not saying they don’t count in the scorebook.

He’s saying they don’t count as high-impact runs.

In Blewett’s case, say the last 150

This is an analysis of high-impact performances.

Any critic worth his salt should be interested in separating high-impact runs from the low-impact variety.

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

I agree Dave

You will notice that PR and I aren’t doing this exercise with many batsmen

So far, only Waugh and Trumper
(Vivy is another I’d throw in)

In other words, the raw numbers are a rough guide for most players

I agree with that
but there are the exceptions

Anyone with a poor average in draws,
A poor average against weak teams,
A poor average after passing their 100
A poor average when setting up for a declaration

They are tell-tale signs.

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

Hahaha

It did sound familiar 👍

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

Nonsense

The author made real time judgements to separate high value performances from those that help pad your average.

Everyone likes playing Zimbabwe,
I wonder why?

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

What’s extreme about chasing less than 100 for victory and knocking up a cool 50 not out?

What’s extreme about Blewett moving from 100 to 214 while his opponents are on their knees?

All PR is doing is identifying these situations and removing them from his analysis.

Perfectly sensible,
In my opinion.

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

Matth

I think you have missed the point completely.

PR is not suggesting that any batsman should play differently,

He’s suggesting that critics should analyse differently.

Separate low-impact runs
From the high-impact variety

By all means,
batsmen should make as many as they can.

But let’s not pretend that low-impact runs shouldn’t be relegated to the category of

‘icing on the cake’

When I evaluate batsmen,

I ignores scores that ‘finish off an opponent’
That is, those that bring down the chances of defeat from

5% (at the start of their innings) to
0% (at the end)

Say the last 114 of Blewett’s innings in Johannesburg,
for example.

It’s the hard yards that matter.

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

Another great article, PR.

Thanks for drawing attention to that memorable series in 1996-97

and once more highlighting the difference between impact and volume.
Mark Waugh’s 116 in the second Test was the quintessential match winning performance;
Greg Blewett’s 214 in the first Test was the quintessential ‘icing on the cake’ performance.

Say Blewett was dismissed for 57 in that Jo’burg game,

at that stage,

Australia had drawn level with South Africa’s first innings 302

With five wickets in hand
and Steve Waugh 67 not out

the odds of winning were probably Australia 75% vs SA 25%
(ignoring draws).
Blewett’s final 157 runs
brought those SA odds down from 25% to 0%

Now look at the impact of Junior’s 116
in the second Test.

He came in with Australia 2-30,
chasing 271
on a wicket where the highest score
among the previous 32 batsmen dismissed was 55

At this stage,

the odds were (arguably) SA 75% vs A 25%
When his innings ended,
Australia needed 12
with 4 wickets in hand

The odds were now SA 10% vs A 90%
In other words,
the impact of each innings was:
GB (final 157 runs) +25%
MEW (116 runs) +65%

Although Blewett scored 39 more
Junior’s was the stand out performance.

A score of 100 in a narrow victory,
where all your peers failed

Is worth much, much more than
a score of 300 not out
in a runaway victory.
No one is saying that teams should not try to crush their opposition;
no one is saying that Blewett doesn’t deserve his 214 runs;
no one is saying that ‘low impact runs’ may not help a player rediscover their form.
What Pale Roarer, Micko and I are saying

is that critics should CAREFULLY CONSIDER
which runs had a major impact

and which were of the ‘icing on the cake – mental disintegration’
variety.

PR, I very much doubt that you work will have much impact
on those who believe that
a batsman who averages 50 MUST be better than one who averages 40
Your article will probably have as much impact

as Joe Burn’s 51 not out,
in 2020-21.

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

Ahhh

It’s nice to be on the same side as DaveJ

It’s been a while 😛

Nonsense articles being shuffled to the top??

😱 😱 👎

Capping is not only legitimate but in fact absolutely imperative when comparing batsmen

I’ll find some time

Just for you 😂

Busting cricket myths: Trumper was failure in 1905 and 1909

Hmmmm

We’ve been on this merry-go-round before Dave 😊

You are looking at the OVERALL record of India and England.

I am looking at how competitive each team was IN AUSTRALIA.

At that time,
India on our wickets were like Bangladesh

While in their own country they were almost unbeatable.

I think this difference is worth acknowledging.

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

Plus, it’s the Ashes!!

You ask any Australian which series means more

A vs E or
A vs I

And you’ll only get one answer.

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

Spot on Micko 👍

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

Hi Dave

India never won a test in Australia during the 90s

Their record is 0-7

Do you really want to make a case for including A vs I in Australia?

For what it’s worth, the best teams of that era were:

WI
P
SAF
E

home and away

And India in India

I think junior averages close to 46 in all those series.

That’s impressive in my book, especially given his highest was just 153.

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

From memory,

I think 44.5

Vs WI, Pak, SA, E

all tests.

Here’s a piece I wrote a few weeks back.

Where does Mark Waugh sit in cricket’s pantheon?

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

😛 😛

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

To your last sentence.

Fair enough.

Do you know he averages three runs more against the four best teams,

and that’s with no big hundreds to lift his average?

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

MxDay

Astle scoring speed in that 222 is not a positive in my opinion.

It tells me he was treating the situation as joke. No player has played like that in a serious position, no one.

And with his defensive technique, it was probably the right call.

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

MxDay

If Astle had done something similar on several occasionsI would say

Huh, maybe there’s a theme here?

But Astle never did anything special again.

There’s no pattern, like there is with Waugh and Trumper.

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

You like that example Micko

😊

It’s a good one 👍

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

Go easy there PR,
too much passion.

I agree, without junior we would have been beaten in back-to-back series against SAF

We would have been beaten 3-0 in India and west Indies.

His impact was enormous but many people don’t see it that way.

Besides, MxDay is a new Roarer,
be diplomatic 😊

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

The music analogy implies ‘hit and miss’

I’m suggesting Waugh had it in him to lift for the occasion.

That is a completely different ball game, if true.

It seems that Waugh needed a challenge to help him focus and summon up the sustained concentration required.

Victor Trumper is an even more extreme example of this archetype.

Anyway, happy to agree to disagree.

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

The big problem you have is that you are making judgement calls, match by match

All reasonable in my opinion

But the doubters – if they are going to reject certain innings or parts of innings – will want to see some objective method that you outline at the start.

For example,

First innings runs
Capped at 100
Against the top four

Some consistent method that doesn’t rely on subjective calls.

That’s if you want to reach the doubters.

I’m perfectly happy to accept your conclusions 😁

Busting cricket myths: Trumper was failure in 1905 and 1909

Sorry HPR

School has restarted and I have two HSC classes to prepare for.

These next two weeks are like Sabina Park in February of 1995

I am trying to take a break from the platform.

My interactions with some regulars has become toxic and I’m not enjoying the experience.

We’re here for fun aren’t we?

Anyway, you keep dragging me back in 😂

I posted a comment to MxDay a moment ago.

Busting cricket myths: Trumper was failure in 1905 and 1909

MxDay

You have made some good points and I agree with many of your observations.

However, on one point I beg to differ:

“Mark Waugh was a good player who happened to play great innings in these circumstances.”

If those circumstances coincide with

‘the best opposition in the crunch moments’

Which I think the author has established

Then this is certainly one form of greatness.

The player who lifts for the big occasions is an archetype that is held in very high esteem whether we are talking about tennis, rugby league, soccer – many fans revere the big match performer.

A Ferrari doesn’t need to travel at 300 km/hr every moment of every day to prove it is superior to a Toyota. We all know what it is capable of.

Some sportsmen fall into this category.

Junior wasn’t the type of player to knuckle down and grind out 250* against a second tier team and so his overall average looks ordinary.

But as HPR has demonstrated, his impact was consistent with a 50+ average.

Comparing Mark and Steve Waugh against Pakistan

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