The All Blacks are back. The Springboks are almost there

Jerry, at least Richie McCaw will be able to sleep this year knowing he doesn't have to face Tuqiri again!!

Jerry Fair comments and agree that with respect to any loss it's hard for any country to acknowledge we were beaten by a better team on the day and try to find faults or excuses wherever they may exist. As a Hurricanes supporter I've been impressed and pleased with Ma'a Nonu's improved play at this level and Conrad Smith's strong tackling. The more games they can play together for the All Blacks the better their combination will gel and that can only assist us as the season wears on. The same can be said also for Jerome Kaino who is getting better and better with every game at no.8

Sam - A quick note on that last point. Lote Tuqiri was suspended for (in effect) one match for his spear on McCaw a few years back, and unlike Thorn dropping Smit on his back Tuqiri went through with the tackle and actually drove McCaw's head into the turf. There was a fair reaction to the tackle, but there was the added context that the Wallabies were pretty obviously targeting McCaw (eg Phil Waugh's forearm accross the face when McCaw was a tackler). Realistically any country tends to be a bit one-eyed about how they view the ref's calls - I note that not many SA fans have mentioned that Burger could have been carded for a professional foul early tackling McDonald in his own 22 for instance). Smit's claims that AB's get away with more is simply sour grapes IMO, especially considering the likes of Waugh above, Matfield's late high KO of Kelleher in 2005 or Marcus Horan rucking Muliaina's head in Wgtn this year - none of which were penalised or cited. As far as the incident itself - Thorne deserved a yellow card in my view and Dickinson's claims not to have seen it properly don't seem accurate - it was about 3 feet in front of his face!

I agree with Spiro that the All Blacks imposing record of home wins is getting closer and closer to their first loss - that is the natural life cycle with any record of achievement. However it will take a very good team to win on NZ soil and whilst talk this week is again focusing on this being the best opportunity for SA to break the sequence I believe that this time the opportunity has been missed and it will be a consecutive loss for the Boks. The Boks will account themselves well as they are a proud team, they will be hurting from the loss and they will improve. The All Blacks on the other hand are now a confident team. I sensed that with the injury disruptions, the selection changes, the inclement weather and playing the world champions NZ was clearly the underdogs (which is a position every coach tries to manipulate) and there was a degree of uncertainty and perhaps even self confidence in their ability. Beating the Boks without Richie McCaw has given the entire squad (and the coaches) an enormous boost in self belief and confidence, such is the influence that he wields on and off the field. There aren't many teams that can absorb and overcome the loss of so many experienced and talented players over the last six months and I believe that Dan Carter is really maturing as a player in his ability to marshall a team around the field and play the percentages correctly. That was the key difference between the sides last week. In the second half NZ played classic wet weather rugby, keep the ball in the opposition 22 and apply pressure, pressure, pressure. In order to do that you need a forward pack to play accurately and a halfback or first five to kick accurately, keeping the ball in front of the forwards and constantly turning the opposition around. The Boks tired noticeably in the second half and the adjustment to the aerobic fitness levels required to play the ELV's caught most of the SA Super 14 sides on the hop. Peter de Villiers selections will be crucial and he will need to get the balance right in his front row, loose forwards as well as their midfield. The Boks are a good side and they're not that far off the pace, but Graham Henry has outsmarted de Villiers and co and I suspect that Robbie Deans will outstmart them in Perth as well. If that is the case, who at the outset this season would have predicted the Boks to lose their first 3 Tri-Nations tests. I suspect that wins away from home this year will be very hard to come by and it could be bonus points that will separate them. I wrote in another thread earlier this year that the Boks will take time to adjust to a new coach, his attacking and defensive systems and how they react to their first loss will show their true resolve and quality as a champion team. It was not a faultless performance by the All Blacks and there is still room for improvement but the outbursts from Peter de Villiers about alleged illegal scrummaging techniques shows the immense pressure the Boks are now under as they're trying to deflect attention from their own shortcomings. They can feel justifiably outraged at the one match suspension meted to Brad Thorn for what was a dangerous tackle as the umbrage from the NZ media and public if the same action was performed on Richie McCaw would have been as catatonic as our reaction to a certain English referee missing a forward pass.

On that note, I actually remember the frustration during last years Tri-Nations Roger, where the AB's were all over the Wallaby scrum but were somehow penalised when Woodcock and Hayman were guilty of no more than domination in this facet or the game? I remeber quite cleary the absolute puzzlement of Matt Dunning or Guy Shepherdson clearly dropping thier hits when the pressure came on, sometimes no more than 10m from the Wallaby line, and the ref penalising the AB's. Also, the arguement of when else has Australia lost as a direct result of the scrum is a fair call, because it takes are VERY poor scrum to blame it as the sole cause of a loss. But, as with the AB v SA match last saturday, the dominating AB scrum helped inflict dissaray in the SA camp and demoralise their otherwise aggressive and domineering personalities. So while it wasn't the sole cause of the defeat, as you have asked in your intended rhetorical question, it certainly gave NZ an edge to attack from. So if Australia are hoping to unleash a revamped backline then they are going to have to contend with the Tight Forward power of the AB's and Boks which is both powerful, but also mobile. I thought it was a valid point.

OJ - my mistake, 2006 you're correct.

The Brisbane Test was in 2006. THe difference wtith the World Cup quarter final was the way the scrum was reffed.

"watch a replay of that 2005 match in..." ...Brisbane. Don't know why I left that out.

Roger - seriously, watch a replay of that 2005 match in . Along with the sublime play of McCaw, the AB's scrum dominance was one of the major contributing factor in the AB's narrow 13-9 victory. There were quite a few times when the Wallabies had the feed in decent attacking positions or with an opportunity to put pressure on the AB's or create some momentum but the AB's would put in a big shove and, if they didn't turn the ball over immediately they'd put sufficient pressure on the Wallabies ball that they weren't able to assert any real pressure on the AB defence. The AB scrum has had the wood on the Australians since 2003, but that game was the most obvious example - Remember the Bledisloe fixture last year when Gregan managed to avoid actually feeding a scrum until the second half of the match? That's why. The reason why the English dominance stands out more, I suspect, is that England generally don't really dominate anywhere but the tight forward exchanges whereas the AB's may win the scrums but also are capable of dominating all other areas of the game (except lineouts damnit!). I do see what you're saying though - despite what some NH scribes believe, a strong scrum is never going to win a game on its own - even in the "golden-oldie scrums" win at Twickenham or in Marseille it has been the English dominance in strength and numbers at the breakdown that has been more of a telling factor. If a team can't get any good ball off its own scrum it will often struggle, but the Wallabies have usually had enough weapons elsewhere to get by.

Jerry, my memory must be failing me! Whilst the wallabies scrum has certainly struggled over the last few years, I cannot remember any games (like against ENG) where the failure in the scrum has appeared to have such a direct link to the wallabies losing. Whilst everyone says the wallabies scrum is hopless (as I have also being saying for years), after watching NZ scrum deal with IRE, ENG and SA, I started wondering why NZ had never inflcited a scrum demolition on the wallabies in recent memory....they have certainly won the scum contests in recent games, but not the extent that I thought the wallabies scrum was responsible for the loss like I do when we play ENG. Why is it so?

Maybe it was closer than at first thought, but for my money SA never really looked dangerous in the backs. Could be it's because SA ball frequently ends up 10 meters from breakdown in Burger's hands, whose pass-out-of-tackle ratio is one in 10. Know his manic commitment & bashing is part of SA game-plan but it hurts smooth delivery. Also, James has yet to break gain-line with any conviction. As usual NZ always look so dangerous with clean ball. Just hope Wallabies can be too. Jools-USA

stuff happens, In '91, I was too young to have know anything but the '87-91 All Blacks, so the loss was a shock to a young fella. In '99, I thought we had a crap team & people were dreaming that we could flip it on like a switch. In 2003, I thought we'd lose the second Spencer threw that pass. The whole thing happened in slow motion. In 2007, I was anxious before the Test because of the England upset over Australia. I had a feeling it might be contagious. Couldn't really believe it until the end, though. Was kinda proud of the way we marched 70m upfield. mxcd, I'm not sold on the ELVs just yet. The Test was loose and didn't have a lot of structure, but it was the first Test match played under the new laws, so it's comparable to the opening rounds of the Super 14. It wasn't league, but the "restarts" from the ruck are strange and takie a bit of getting used to. I thought the old laws were more of a leveler. I don't like how the ELVs take away the Springboks strengths and I kinda miss the battle at the breakdown, but it was getting to the point where you couldn't ref it anymore. I like that the ball is in play more often & you have to play the full 80 minutes, but I think the lineout needs to remain an attacking weapon.

Did anyone manage to get a have a look at a NH take on this game, in particular that it was the first international played under the ELVs ? I did. I also advise that if you like tries being scored and suffer from high blood pressure, dont even bother looking or you could be reaching for your pills. Welshman Rick O'Shea offers his thoughts in a column on the BBC Sports website. I was nearly blown over by his comments that he actually conceded that "the first international match to played under the ELVs was a triumph that must have left many wondering what all the fuss was about. I'll put up my hand and admit that I had feared for the integrity of the game at the highest level, persuaded by the logic of the argument that it could easily degenerate into a fuzzy form of rugby league with line-outs." But not to let the NH down he made another amazing statement and Anti-ELV arguement which i hadnt heard before stating this game played under ELVs was mainly successful because of "the supreme ability and equality of the two sides involved". I ask, is that to say that a game played under ELVs by any lesser team (ie IMO any other rugby team in the world at any level) just would not work ? O'Shea adds to his mastermind statement that "yellow cards will become rare as persistently conceding free kicks seems to be okay." Further, I question O'Shea's mathematical skills given that he states the game "was at least 10 per cent quicker than anything else we have seen this summer and about 20 per cent quicker than the Australia-France match that followed." 10% quicker than the Heiniken Cup final ? i think he missed a zero. I also went on a few blogs to to have a see what the average punter thought of the game. Very dissapointing, most actually made no reference to the game but bleeted on that ELVs will be the death of RU, that Australians (??) are ruining the game and will change it making it look more like league. Now I ask any anti-ELV supporter, in the AB's v Springbok game played in Wellington on the weekend, how in any way did that look like a game of Rugby League ?

The above mambo jumbo is sad to say the least. Please enjoy the following quotes "The All Blacks re-established their supremacy (???????) in any form of rugby that does not end in the presentation of the Webb Ellis Trophy" The Boks lost they went beaten, Kindly watch the second match without your blinds on..... "Consequently we are forced to conclude that South African forwards are made from materials that must have been developed by NASA,especially Schalk Burger whose forbears must have been crash test dummies." Spies, Burger, Bakkies and Metfield will have more to say....... "I don't believe that he was ever injured and that SARFU gave him a holiday to go on the pop with some mates. He returned against the All Blacks seemingly indestructible and at considerable advantage because of it. The freak."..... The only player of note in the All Blacks is Carter....Others i choakers as the All Blacks side during various World Cups. 1991 - 20.......!

Ohtani - I'd disagree strongly. While I'd expect the AB's to win (and if it's dry for the full 80 I'd be more confident) this Bok team isn't that far away. A strong performance, a couple of good bounces and they could pip the ABs. Stuff happens - As far as 99 and 91, I wasn't that confident. Even if we'd beaten France in the 99 semi, I felt Aus had the wood on us after that pasting in Sydney earlier in the year.

Ohtani's jacket - so tell me, did you 'feel it in your bones' before France in RWC '07 and '99 or Aust in '03 and '91? Don't worry, my bones ain't too good sometimes either! Usually because my predictions for Australia are wrong - I never thought we'd beat the AB's in 'RWC '03 or lose to Eng in '07. Ah well , that what keeps us tuning in I suppose.

I don't know what Test you guys were watching, but South Africa's chances of winning this weekend look pretty bleak. Take it from a one-eyed Kiwi, you can feel it in your bones when New Zealand are gonna lose. Australia would have to do the mother of all cock-ups to lose to SA too.

It is interesting reading through all the comments to think once again about the embarrassment of riches available to South African and New Zealand selectors despite the exodus of players to Europe. I wouldn’t want to choose between Spies and Kankowski (my pick of all the players in the Super 14 this year except when he was Phil Waughed against the Tahs - twice). I’ve thought for a long time now that indecision in the mind of selectors has been one of the main problems for both our main rivals. Whereas Australia has had a core set of players that have picked themselves - we’ve done as much as we can with what we’ve had and allowed combinations to settle, New Zealand and South Africa chop and change trying to decide, disrupting the teams and the combinations. I notice the talk of Australia now having two players in every position. That may be the case in terms of potential and talent but not proven performance – yet. It is an exciting time for sure with new rules (finally) all this young blood flowing through the team and a very different pattern of play but for the first time in a long time I have NO IDEA how we will go against South Africa in a home test and I am extremely nervous that we will get spanked. This nervousness was heightened on the weekend at the Australia A game on Sunday. I was quite frankly bitterly disappointed by the performance of our second national side. I was expecting a victory - they really should have dominated that Maori team made up largely of second string Super 14 players. The result was not a good indication of depth. So, all fingers crossed that our rivals trip over their talent and Australia limp across the line in this Tri Nations series because unless Robbie Deans is truly a magician, at this stage it is the only way I see Australia lifting the trophy this year.

Great game and the AB's thoroughly deserved to win.It has been noticable to me how the Northern Hemisphere teams have all struggled with their fitness aginst the Southern Henisphere teams this year. The French were out on their feet before half time in the Sydney test and the Welsh fell away badly in the last 20 minds of the second test in which they had been very competitive until then. I beilieve that the ELV's used in the S14 have played a big part in this. One of the key Bok players, Matfield , was playing under the S14 ELV's for the first time and he struggled wth the pace of the game by his own admission. Otherwise I didn't think the Boks were less fit than the AB's and I certainly did not think it was a one sided match. The conditions played a big part as did the injury to Smit. The game was marred by some apalling decisions by the match officials. Disallowing the AB No 8's try was one and calling Botha offside on the AB line was another - particulary as the Boks were attacking and Solialo was clearly offside at the time. Sanzar lets have neutral refs for these games, please. The thought of Matt Goddard this week makes my hair stand on end! Incidently the S14 and Tri Nations ELV's are fine, as are those used in the Sydney Club Premiership. Unfortunaltely these are not the ELVs approved by the IRB to be applioed internationally from August. For an insight into how appalling the latter are , look for a replay of a Currie Cup game. You will see almost non stop full arm penalties at the breakdown! Remeber the IRB have told the refs to be very strict at the breakdown.The South Africans are already voicing their disapproval but unless someone does something we will end up going backwards rapidly come August!.

Roger - uh...the team with it's name in the title to the thread? Most notably in the 2005 game in Australia, the AB scrum has been one of the big differences between the teams.