Eddie Jones and the ELVs

Rightly or wrongly the 3N has to be played every year. Even if the TV contract said it didnt who would AUS play if NZ were playing SA? A C grade international team? I think playing each side on home and away is enough though.

For all his faults, and he has many, at least Steady Eddie hasn't compared himself to Jesus like another international coach.

It's a tragedy that there aren't any real midweek tour matches anymore. The Ospreys v Australia was a great success. I'm waiting with baited breath for Munster v NZ too. Along with straight scrum feeds that would make my year.

I know I'd rather see New Zealand and South Africa having alternate three Test series of each other's countries, maybe two years apart and that would include midweek matches too against the provinces. They could run a Bledisloe Series in the year South Africa and New Zealand aren't playing each other.

I tend to agree with Nelson. Less sometimes is more. Extending the tournament is unlikely to win over new fans, all it will do is increase player burnout, both mentally and physically.

there's real burnout factor in the tri-nations in its current format full stop. next year the boks will be coming into the new format / 6 game tri nations off the back of the lions tour. i don't expect a repeat of the the clive wooward debacle with ian mcgeechan (and probably shaun edwards) in charge and no doubt this will take its toll on the Boks physicall. its also quite likely that a lot of boks will retire at the conclusion of the lions tour ( butch james has already announced this ). they will have to deal with a 5 week roadtrip to australasia..... .. its a long way off but I just cant see them performing well anyway.. justin marshall was spot on a few years ago when he said the tri nations shouldnt be played every 2 years (or even less). it would make the tournament more presitigious in my eyes

I hope so. There's a real burnout factor involved in winning the Tri-Nations year after year.

If SA, or PDV, hit reality anytime soon then SA could prove real opposition for NZ.

The lovable Ozzos are always looking at the bright side. I don't think it will get any easier for Deans next year. They'll have to play twice in New Zealand and South Africa will remain a tough away game.

He is but I certainly don't buy into the myth about his man-management skills and how his positive attitude should be an inspiration to the business world etc. A lot of Australian fans have laid on the hyperbole quite thickly, especially before he had even coached a test. This 3N was his best opportunity for international glory and now it's gone. It's interesting how the players have come under attack and yet Deans, to date, has not.

Deans is a good coach, I've just been a bit bewildered by some of his decisions this year.

I'm sure they will. I never bought into the Deans myth, as apparently neither did you. I think as an objective NH fan I can see the mistakes he has made but equally I can't criticise him too much because he doesn't have the requisite players to work with and this 3N has been transitional. It is hard to see where the improvements have been because the AB side was a bit one-dimensional, and to that extent easy to coach against, and the Springboks scored various own goals.

Yeah but if they lose on tour people will fob it off as developing a side.

Spanner, I think actually the ARU is to blame for the problems, simply because their top-down approach has always been crassly short term. The provincial teams will play in the manner that their coach desires, not how Deans has the Wallabies playing. OJ, it's hard to measure the progress of the Wallabies. South Africa, or should I say PDV, committed sporting suicide therefore games involved with them should be viewed with the appropriate perspective. The forward 'improvement' will be tested in the NH and as everyone already knew Australia has no strength in depth. The most committed players, Vickermann and Elsom are departed and there are stillfly-half problems. A struggle awaits Deans methinks.

I've never rated Deans as a hands on backs coach. I think they should get someone else in to coach the backs or at least hire a defensive coach. It's not really Deans' style, but the Wallabies are going backwards at a rate of knots. Their points differential this year was -44

Stillmissit, Interesting stat from Knuckles' column this week, which backs Eddie J's argument in The Independent: "Both teams started this game with a safety-first approach. There were '33 kicks in general play in the first half alone'," -- "First half alone!" Soon we'll be keeping the AFL honest -- "and while Australia dominated possession in the opening half - they enjoyed a 73 per cent possession rate - there was little reward for it." Little reward for it because the ABs' defence was up to the task (and obviously ours wasn't) and our attack wasn't up to it either. The interesting thing about Bernie's successful switch from FB to pivot as you say is that the game's ardent followers all knew ahead of Macqueen that the positional switch would work but he Rod took a cautious while to be convinced it would. Listen to the people, you can't go wrong. Shaun, "Eddie Jones, the great “student” of the game of rugby union, one-time coach of the Reds, Brumbies, Wallabies, and currently the Saracens Director of Rugby, has made his views crystal clear on the ELVs, comparing them to Twenty20 Cricket: a simplified rugby spectacle for the masses." That's the worry. We don't want it over simplified or we'll end up with 'rugby league take 2', or Twenty/20 rugby, equally as gruesome as the other.

ADH, Jones definitely over-achieved in the 03 WC, and for years Australia were very competative in Europe when given their squad they had no right to be. He also introduced many young players whilst on tour and remember - this was England's most dangerous period and yet Australia always proved reliable competition at Twickenham, something that Woodward never managed when touring with a depleted squad. His dalliance with the Springboks also produced the first semblance of backline creativity from the Boks in years.

Joeb - I played in those early Ella days and mate although my memory is tricky at best we never did much in the tackle dept playing in the forwards. So fast elusive back had the opp backs and the lose trio to contend with and occasionally ran into a a member of the tight 5 by mistake. I too am pissed with the constant playing of players out of position. The arguement is purile as well 'All backs should be able to play any position' if this is so why didnt we allow Tuquiri to play 5/8 (I'm sure his ego thinks he would be world class at it). Let's specialise where we can and in a difficult situation like fullback at the moment then play AAC to fill the role but keep looking for a specialist fullback. All we have achieved by putting Barnes at I/C and GIteau at 5/8 is have two good players play average football whilst they 'learn' the position. I dont think under any circumstance that we should be training people to play a new position whilst playing for the wallabies. Steven Larkham is the only exception in my book and almost from his first game he looked comfortable and fitted that role superbly. Sorry Joeb cant talk about the ELV's I am lawed out. Lets get on with them.

Fox's Greg Clarke in the wash-up of last Saturday night's TN/Bled decider at Suncorp made the alarming point that it was the first time since "1946" that the Wallabies have leaked "12 tries" in TWO consecutive test matches... Phil Kearns interjected this being the case then the Wallabies need to immediately revert to their old defensive pattern as instilled/coached into them by departed defence coach John Muggleton... And at the start of the game's coverage on Seven Stu Wilson rightly described our Ellis Park effort of two weeks earlier at the breakdown with utter disdain as "rubbish" and "crap" which we well know it embarrassingly was, and for all the criticism of Eddie J did the team ever perform as poorly? Speaking of classic games on the other thread "And the winners are: the All Blacks and the ELVs!" the 2003 semi where we knocked the ABs out of the WC final race, and then even in the final our guys played some absolutely great rugby under EJ's tutelage. Those two games really were "classic matches" and there were no ELVs within cooee. But okay, the argument is the ELVs are intended to "speed up the game" so that we have more exciting open field running and passing and less trench warfare thru the forwards which some deem "boring", yet thinking back to the 1980s when the Ellas came on the scene shortly followed by Campese, watching a Saturday afternoon game down at Coogee Oval invariably it was a showcase of exhilarating open running rugby ball-thru-hands display and many New South Welshmen will still remember the effort it took to convince the conservative selectors of the day that choosing Mark Ella (and Gary at FB) ahead of Paul McLean at pivot and whoever was fullback at the time would result in a far more exciting spectacle for the supporters than having to endure McLean's endless kicking away of hard fought for possession. Yet now under these ELVs we're again returning to endless silly kicking away of quality possession ala McLean instead of running the pill thru the backs -- and this is under the cherished ELVs!? One of the problems we're having with backline execution of late is we're playing players out of position, i.e. Barnes (or Norton-Knight or McKay or Beale) is the man to fill Larkham's shoes, Giteau is an inside centre where he's far more effective being put into gaps by someone inside him who draws defenders, and Mortlock remains our best outside centre and leader. The thing about Ryan Cross is he can actually handle either centre position if need be. What disappointed last Saturday night also was that first penalty kick needed to be taken by Morts (if Eales was still playing he would've taken it as a matter of urgency for points on the board) as it was obvious Gits was going to struggle with range.

Eddie Jones is largely responsible for the decay of Australian rugby, at all levels, during his Wallaby tenure, and has no place in the debate because he knows nothing of running (real) rugby. Eddie does not want to play running rugby so obviously does not like the ELVs. I suspect it will take many years for the basic skill levels of our juniors and grade players to reach the standard required to play running rugby thanks to Eddie. Thank God Robbie Deans is now leading the charge because all coaches from S14 down will play in the manner of the Wallabies, and Robbie has got it right. Lets face it, if Stirling Mortlock had not intercepted that pass in the RWC semi, and gone all the way for a 14 point turnaround, Eddie would (and should) have been gone long ago. I suspect he will not be long at Saracons, like the Reds, because he is a dinasour in todays game and will not win many with his bully boy style.