O'Neill hasn't thought through logistics of Japan in Super 15

Ben, You're right. I don't think Japanese rugby is ready yet, but O'Neill needs the money now. I suppose he's basing the whole thing on the Socceroos and the Asian Champions League, but in that scenario Australia were the kid brother.

The more I read about Super rugby expansion the more I start to hate the idea. I have a few questions and feel free to make up your own mind 1. Was Super rugby found so that the best teams from the 3 best rugby nations on earth can compete in an provincial/franchise competition? 2. Are Japanese players, on any planet, as competitive as SANZAR players? 3. How many thousands of extra miles will players have to travel annualy? 4. Would a neutral fan anywhere tune in to see the Cheetahs play the Minolta Samurai at 1 am? 5. Would a Japanese team do ANYTHING to develop Australian rugby? JON's only rational is: "We need money, who has money ? Ah, the Japanese fellas have Sony and Toyota, they have plenty!"

Would South africa ever support a Japanese franchise? Apparently the south african broadcasters bankroll the tournament as it stands, are they likely to support something that makes the travel demands even worse for south african teams ? it seems the ARU push for a Japanese super team is based on the very dubious premise of a huge windfall in asian tv renveues. i just dont see how this can be the number 1 strategic priority for the aru when there are key markets within australia that are undeveloped in rugby terms. sheek i am totally in agreement with you that the super 14 should be restructured along the lines of the heineken cup, or european champions league in football. south africa gets less travel. australia gets more teams in its underlying national comp. argentina gets a way of being included without ruining its existing structures. it seems glaringly obvious to me and if the administrators cant get it right this year at the re-negotiations it will be a huge disappointment one idea could be for the final of a revised super tournament to be held at a neutral venue as is done in the Heineken cup/superbowl/champions league. the likes of tokyo, hong kong, dubai or ,LA could all be prime candidates for hosting .

John O'Neill is not passionate about Australian rugby per se.He is passionate about Super 14 rugby franchises that play in Australia.Theres a difference. The cornerstone of rugby in the UK is the CLUBS. John O'Neills approach is a trickle down effect where Australian CLUBS are fed financial crumbs from the rich mans TEAMS. (CLUBS vs TEAMS;OK already ,I get it) John O'Neills policy regarding domestic rugby is ,"yes we wont"

Westy, No doubt some (many?) would consider JON clever for 'USING' NZ & SA to help develop our game. The S14 is basically OUR national comp, as some people try to tell me. Except that it isn't our comp. We only contribute 28.57% of the teams - 4 out of 14. The ARU keeps feeding the head of its game (Wallabies & Super teams) while continuing to fail to develop the grass roots. To use a variation of a clever joke I heard the other day, "I hope the body of the ARU is waterproof, because the head is a pisser"! Maybe rugby league will fall over, maybe not. Even if it did, it would provide the majority of icons - famous league clubs - & initially many of the players. Maybe this fact (ARU's inability to develop its grassroots) doesn't bother JON. He'll be long gone with wheelbarrows of money.

John O'Neill has stated his aim is to have perhaps a Super 18. The purpose of his vision is almost entirely monetary driven. The extra 4 teams he has in mind are: 1. A 5th Aussie Super team based in Melbourne. 2. A Super team based in Japan, made up of some locals & reinforced by foreigners. 3. A Pacific Islands team located on the Gold Coast. 4. One other team, probably an Argentine side based in Buenos Aires. A team is Melbourne would be designed to tap into the Victorian financial market, second only to Sydney in Australia. An Islanders team on the Gold Coast rather than Auckland would also be able to tap into Australia's greater financial viability. A team in Japan has no other motive than to tap into the massive Asian market. A team in Argentina would initially be to make the numbers even, but also because Argentine participation makes sense rugby wise. The blueprint for O'Neill is any major football (soccer) competition around the globe. Take many England clubs, where the native-born Englishman is often in the minority. British & French rugby are going the same way. It wouldn't bother O'Neill if the entire starting XV for the Japanese franchise was from overseas. It's selling the brand that is the thing. I see no problem borrowing the best ideas from football, but we don't have to mimic them in every single way. I am totally opposed to this crass corporate driven concept of rugby. I know no sport can survive without money. But I still believe Aussie teams should be made up of 80% Aussies; Kiwi teams 80% Kiwis; Saffie teams 80% Saffies; Japanese teams 80% Japanese, & so on. However, I guess I'm fighting a losing battle. Rugby's future is football's future. At some point in the future, we can expect the NSW Waratahs to be made up of less than 50% Australians. Ditto Qld Reds, ACT Brumbies & WA Force. Some people might think this is okay. But it's not a future of rugby I aspire to.

Onside has a point. You see is JON the CEO of Australian rugby or of thr Super14. JON would respond the super competition is the means to an end to garner resources for Australian rugby and differentiate it from any rival domestic competition in Australia( 4/5 nations etc.). The perrenial problem for JON is that the ARU's track record on actually developing the game across Australia is not the best . They seem to be going on the basis that league will eventually fall over . the reality is that Australian rugby still is very dependent on its proximity to NZ rugby. Let us hope NZ rugby remains strong.

They're Tongan nationals. They came to Japan on secondary school scholarships and rose up through the school system. They got into trouble with the police a few years ago for having a fight with a Japanese female pro-wrestler in the Roppongi night club district. Loamanu was cut from the national team at the time. If his B sample comes back positive, he'll be banned from the national side again. Japan has strict drug laws. Simon Kasprowicz (brother of Michael) did a runner from Japan last year after the police got a warrant for his arrest.

OJ, I haven't heard of either of those two players, but they might be NZers - what level did they play in NZ? I know the Japs are pretty serious about this sort of stuff - a few years ago, Johnny Elias was with the Lebanese RL side in Japan and apparently knocked off some stuff over there, and it really pissed off their hosts...then again, it was in tune with his colourful history.

John O'Neill should resign as CEO of the ARU. He should be CEO of the Super Dooper Competiton he is so besotted with developing. Another person should sit in the CEOs chair of the ARU and focus totally on Australian rugby. Split energies between the ARU and Super Dooper equate to a conflict of interest My call is John O'Neill has his eyes on developing a very strong international club (team) competition that out trumps domestic rugby in all participating countries.

Well, rugby was in the news the last few days... Toshiba Brave Lupus and Japan wing Christian Loamanu tested positive for marijuana and was banned from today's final. If his B sample also proves positive, Toshiba will withdraw from the All Japan Championship. This comes on the heels of Toshiba lock Vivili Iongi being arrested on the suspicion of theft. Iongi's arrest resulted in Toshiba banning coach Tomohiro Segawa for the rest of the season and the resignation of Toshihiro Aoki, head of the company's rugby section. Makes you wonder what would happen if a Tokyo-based Super 15 side had any sort of trouble. Oh, and Tony Brown is attempting a rather remarkable comeback for today's game, 15 weeks after his near fatal injury. Could be a fairytale story later today.

If I may add a little outside observation … IMO JON is an astute businessman… we all know his history youngest ever CEO of the State Bank, headed rugby some say at an opportune time what with the Super League War and Old Soccer still in the final deaths rows of its existence, add the NZ incompetence …. BUT to be fair he played the cards he was dealt very well. Then a number of rugger old boys got the shits with him and the old heave ho out you go. Then Obie One (Frank Lowy) comes along and invites JON to set up football in Australia…. Then from out of the blue JON from an almost faultless start up of the FFA leaves…. I have often wondered why, and I believe it is the same problem you have know in rugby… JON is great at running an international team or teams… but has some weakness in understanding a domestic league and how to run it. The original eight A-League teams where the only eight to apply. Obie One stated objective is to build a strong and national domestic league to support the national sides and for regular weekly viewing. Both Perth Glory and the former NZ sides did not have much time for JON and were critical of his lack of understanding of domestic fans in a local club side and to their credit the FFA have admitted they got it badly wrong in Perth but only after JON left. I think JON had difficulty setting up the expansion and junior development required by Obie One for the A-League and that’s why they parted still as friends and why Obie One grabbed a AFL boy someone who knew about domestic leagues and teams. With JOH at the helm you will have money and that by the way is very important, you will never go broke and will always have a strong international profile. But what will he build… so those that follow have a strong foundation to work from. Sheek argues, (which I agree with) there is a bigger picture than the present. Meaning I think if you win today but have nothing to show for it other than a trophy then you lost. Bob Carr choose the right time to leave, Mr Mac Bank left with his massive pay out at the right time, the real question is rugby getting stronger today or is rugby winning trophy’s but getting weaker … will JON leave stronger rugby when he leaves ??? I have no idea TBH maybe you guys do.

Yes Yes Yes, The idea is to provide 'windows' for each level of comp. Obviously, there's going to be some overlap, but the idea is give each level a window that belongs to them. The window might be a block of one month, or two, or weekends here & there. This is not a new idea. I'm merely trying to develop & evolve structures already existing. 1. Super 14-18 (whatever). Runs from early March through late May. 2. Inbound tests. Generally 3 tests through June. 3. 3/4 Nations. Prefer 3 games, others would want 6 games each. Basically July/August. 4. National comp. Runs from early September to late October. 5. Outbound tour. Generally 3/4 tests in November. It's packed as you can see. This is why I would like to truncate the S14, so as to free up the extra weekends for the national comp in Sep/Oct. With respect to premier rugby, the Sydney PR (22 w/e's plus finals) would run from March through August. The idea would be for the Sydney PR to have their grand final the week before the national comp starts. It would be great if the established test/super stars could play the odd games for their clubs, but as you can see, its very tight. Anyway, what I've outlined above is the broad idea. Frankly, I would dispense with the Super concept, & give a higher profile to the various national comps. But of course, I can't ever see this happening in the short term. I know from reading around the place that NZ & SA would appreciate concentrating more on their domestic comps. However, at the moment, the money is in S14.

Yikes i hear you . however implicit in your argument is that the "entirety/east of Sydney(youknow with its 40 subbies team )cannot support the Waratahs" they do not represent me. The Waratahs have been positive in playing trials in recent years in Newcastle. They played the brumbies at SFs before a crowd of 7/8000. Is Parramatta impossible? Do the Waratahs want development. All the ARU has left the west with is the Waratahs. Bluntly they are either not interested or do not have the resources or both. To seriously put forward this team represents NSW is firstly false and not the perception the Tahs currently present.As you say perceptions can change but the difficulty is that the people we need to get the corporate dollar paradoxically think Western Sydney begins not at George Street Parramatta but George Street in the CBD. If they have one more day at North sydney oval ! The games at SFS are played at a nightmare location for people west of Sydney.Many of my mates would say there are no supporters there anyway. Again the paradox we are told by my fellow Tah supporters that they will not readily travel to homebush . Despite my continued support for a state team I have followed all my life its identity in recent decade has narrowed. It is not the New South wales team , it does not include Southern NSW . i am not even sure it is Sydney.'s team . the Noreast Sydney Blues is perhaps more apt. devil's advocate stuff but if I hear one more time it is a family team for right minded people trials should never be at the SFS. The second trial should have been at parramatta or NSW country. Whether the Tahs like it or not unlike NZ and SA franchises they have much more of an obligation in the development of the game in Sydney and NSW. they are trying but one visit to Westfields of hills is not enough. The NSW Community rugby Board is not in a position by management skills or resources to do much at present.I can take the knocks but when we again build resources we desperately need to fund development and understand it takes five or more years to come through.It needs to be targeted even if it causes dissension in loyal circles. NSWRU must put its limited resources into district junior rugby only , it needs "western sydney "rep teams and touring teams. We either take on league or shut up and accept that Tah supporters do live very closely together. Currently super 14 has seen positive growth in two Australian regional teams but a relative loss of traction for the tahs across NSW.. The Tahs are the best supported super 14 team in Australia with a currrent support base skewed to northern and eastern Sydney and historical support in NSW country excluding Newcastle and Northern NSW and the rest of Sydney. This is OK if that is all the Tahs want to represent.

What about a combined Japan/Islanders side playing out of Tokyo. Would solve the problem of the side not being competitive and also the problem of getting the Pacific islanders into the comp. The Islanders have somewhere to play that's commercially viable.. the Japanese someone to watch who can win and entertain. They're not totaly foreign to each other having already played the Pacific Nations Cup. Oh I can see a white, red, black, blue harlequins jersey already! of course this doesn't help the issues with travel cost and infrastructure etc from above.. anyway perfect world, perfect world

Sheek - I always enjoy your posts but that model seems just way too complicated, and seems like we're decreasing games for the elite, and creating new teams below.. How do we pay for the teams below if there's no revenue from above. Also where do the Tests fit in. If they're played at the same time as the "national comp" then who's gonna care about watching the national comp - no-one did with the ARC remember.. or the Ricoh Cup between states in the late 90's.

If O'Neill is serious about this, then he ought to push for a Bledisloe Test in Tokyo. The dollar is taking a hammering at the moment, and I doubt many people would fly over. Denver's bid looks more attractive, but the JRFU claim to have a sports marketing firm on board. That would give a clear indication of local drawing power. David Stern has been trying to expand the NBA into Asia for the past twenty years. I'd like to see what O'Neill could accomplish in two.

What we all need to recognise is, that the franchise with sufficient money to purchase quality players from wherever, will be able to maintain the high level of competition we presently enjoy in super 14.

Yikes, I understand the differences between union & league structures. I was trying to point similarities & differences. Yes, the NRL goes for what 24 weeks, plus finals series. And I know the difference in standard between say South Sydney RL & Randwick RU. Look, open your mind, rugby union is structured differently. I'm trying to capitalise on this. And I know the difference between Super & provincial teams. But I'm trying to cut down on my posts on this, & hope you've read enough previously to know where I'm coming from. Getting back to our Wellington fan, he follows Wellington Hurricanes for 13-15 weeks of the year (like his SA or Aussie counterpart. Later in the year he follows Wellington Lions for about 10 or so matches in the ANZ Cup (like his SA counterpart, but not his Aussie counterpart). Then he's got his club side, Petone (like his SA & Aussie counterparts) to follow for 20-24 weeks or so of the year, plus the All Blacks (like his SA & Aussie counterparts). What's so wrong or confusing with this structure? Why do we need to imitate other codes? Rugby league basically has its national club comp, with minor interruptions from state-of-origin & national fixtures. Rugby union on the other hand, has a heavy international & regional season that impacts on provincial & club comps. I can't change the heavy emphasis on tests & super matches. But I can try to rejig it all to come up with a structure that allows opportunities for all the levels mentioned above. The only area in the above scenarios where Australian rugby differs from NZ & SA rugby is the lack of a national comp. And I'm willing to remain flexible on this, although I have my favourite structure. When I follow other sports, I go with the flow. With AFL, I can enjoy following the Brisbane Lions all year uninterrupted by any other comps. Great! With Soccer, I can follow the Qld Roar in the HAL, the Socceroos when they're on duty, the EPL & a million other leagues around the globe. Great! With NRL, I can follow the Brisbane Broncos all year uninterrupted, & enjoy the 3 state of origin matches & occasional Kangaroos outings as well. Great! With rugby union, I can follow Qld Reds in S14, the Wallabies in tests, & Randwick in club rugby, & it would be nice to also follow Qld Reds or Brisbane Tornadoes in an APC or ARC. That's great also! Vive la difference!

True Tah - OK you draw a wider definition than me, but even if you reach out to the Hills, you'll still only get to 16-odd clubs out of a total of 60. It's certainly not representative of the population of the massive area you have called the west. And your claim was that new clubs are "springing up" in the west. All of the 8 clubs you name have been around for years. Can you name a new club over the past few years? (I think there's one in the Hills). Do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, think Western Sydney could support a S14 franchise, considering that the entirety/east of Sydney (you know, with its 40 subbies clubs) can't support the Waratahs? Re Japan - I think the truth lies somewhere in between our two positions. But my point was that foreigners in a Japanese team would hardly be either a culture shock or a barrier to success. As OJ has pointed out there are plenty of overseas players in baseball and soccer.