Brumbies, Waratahs and Reds: the best since 1974

Hi I wish it was me (David Vickerman), and while I played rugby all my life in Wellington NZ , Washington DC USA and in Aust Dan id=s from Sth SAfrica ...and MUCH taller than I

Thurston, Yes, Roebuck was a foundation player for the Newcastle Wildfires in 1995, I think it was. Never saw Jarden play, though of course I've read wonderful things about him. We have to trust the judgement of those who went before us. Also why we should try ourselves to be as honest as possible in our own assessment of the players we see in our own lifetime. Usually when deciding between 2 or more players of exceptional quality, there's very little in it. Often it comes down to perception.

SHEEK & PABLO - Nobody mentioned Marty the other day in association with Newcastle rugby, but if memory serves, I think he led a team up there after he retired from the Int. scene. Was it the Wildfires? Marty had one attribute that many fullbacks would pay a hundred bucks for today - he could hit the line at pace and with great timing. Tough to choose between Roger and Latho. Both excellent punters. Bill McLaren would famously describe's Gould's up-and-unders as coming down with snow of them. As for line kicking, Roger played before the drop punt phase. He used the good old fashioned torpedo - great distance and you can count on a forward roll. He also used the straight-on place kick that was in favour before soccer style came in. He'd dig a mound, slant the ball, step back several paces, rush in and give it an almighty thump - a howitzer that could split the posts from 55 yards out, zoom over the upright by a scant 5 feet, and keep on going into the end seats. I think you're on to something there Sheek - an international Who Would You Choose naming two or three great players up for the same position, one of whom has to be discarded. I'll give you three for a start. Campo, Jonah and Ron Jarden. That one, in my book, is an impossible exercise.

Bay35Pablo, Yeah, was working from memory, & there's always one/two who escapes memory. Write Marty Roebuck down as one. However, Matty Burke still gets the gig for NSW. Very fine & underrated player, was Roebuck. Probably because he did everything efficiently, without fuss, & few mistakes. And yes, it is Dan Vickerman - just seeing if everyone read the post right through!!!!!

Good effort Sheek. Bit of effort and thought has gone into that, even if people disagree. Gets people talking which is always a good thing. A cheer for you. Can't really help with the Queensland team discussions. The amateur v pro era argument has a lot to it, but let's work with the concept. Now - Notable omissions for NSW. MARY ROEBUCK? OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU NOT MENTION HIM!!!! Marty Roebuck was until Burke came along, IMHO the pre-eminent full back for NSW. Any all time line up for the state that didn't at least consider him has a problem. I can understand not including him in the 1st XV, and even on the bench, but not even notable ommissions? I see your point about "influence" in a later post, but even if you won't give him that what about the influence he had to have on Burke? Burke became the best surely because he was gathering pearls of wisdom at both Eastwood and NSW from the great Marty himself. Plus 23 tests for a bloke playing in the amateur era is no mean feat, when some "legends" played single figures. Recount!! PS David Vickerman. Any relation to Daniel?

Gents......Backrow from heaven.....Willie O, Poido and Tim Gavin....would have been the RWC backrow if Gav had not nuked his knee

Poidevin over Elsom is a huge stretch for mine...

JohnB/Harry, On reflection, Foley should be ranked ahead of McBain. But very little between all 4 hookers previously mentioned. Moore has improved enormously in recent years, he's certainly in the frame.

Jonathon, If I could add a bit more on Gould v Latham. For a big man, Gould lacked nothing that Latham had. He had a mighty punt, his kicks travelling in a massive parabola - as high & as far in distance. For field & tactical kicking, he was better than Latham. Both were average goalkickers, sometimes very good, sometimes very ordinary. Latham had the edge in broken field running, with his campo like zig-zag. Although when fully wound up Gould was often devastating. I think he had the edge in the counter-attack, where his size (Gould, that is) made him a difficult proposition to stop. Finally, for the clincher, Gould was the more consistent defender. His only weakness being head-on-head flat-footed defence where he could be stepped around. Latham was very inconsistent in the tackling department. Both were unfortunately injury-prone, especially Gould, who suffered nerve problems in his massive hammies.

Agreel Sheek re Gould v Latham. Gould was absolutely outstanding in 2 truly great Wallaby teams - the Bledisloe winning 1980 (remember those clearing kicks to over halfway from his own goal line) and the grand slam winning side of 1984, as well as many fantastic and match-shaping performances for Queensland for a decade. And as great as Latham was, he had the vast misfortune of playing for a Qld side at its lowest point in over 30 years, and never actually achieving great success for the Reds.

Sin-ick, The play on your moniker gives you away. Howard had a deploral test debut, but other than that was outstanding. He pushed the envelope, & made mistakes, but also did many good things. Better to be a guy who made 10 mistakes but did a 100 good things than the guy who only made one mistake but also only did 5 good things. In my humble opinion. Jonathon, You hit the nail on the head - professional players have the OPPORTUNITY, denied to players of yesteryear. Accident of birth & timing? Now reverse your thinking - what if Gould had the opportunity given to Latham??? We're not comparing tests played to tests played. We're comparing the INFLUENCE every player has on his particular era in COMPARISON to other players in other eras. I hope this makes some sense? For example, the great Dally Messenger only played 2 Wallaby tests & 7 Kangaroo tests. On the basis of your assumption he's not worth a brass razoo of consideration. Yet because of his historical impact on the fortunes of both codes in the period 1906-13, he is lauded as one of the all-time great three-quarters in both codes. Gould v Latham? Nothing in it, Very tight. You could be right, only God really knows. Having seen both players first-hand, I give Gould the nod by a whisker.

Pat Howard….pfft. Is that you Jake?

Guys, Im always amazed when I hear of comparisons between past and preset players. I often hear that Ella, Farr Jones, and in the above, Gould were comparative to the likes of Larkam, Mortlock and now Latham. Now Im sorry .. its just plain wrong. Primarily because of the emergence of the professional era it is like comparing apples to oranges (so in a way not even worth doing). But I think when it does happen nostalgia gets in the way of reality. Let me take up the Latham / Gould example. Latham played 80 odd tests for Australia and scored a million and a half tries. He scored not one but around 50 individual tries length of the field tries for Queensland and single handedly propped up that side. His achievements for teh Wallabies was incredible. When you look at both the stats and the volume of rugby played he is unbeatable as a fulback. There is Latham and light not far behind. I know Gould et al were good in there time but unless you give them 5 days a week professional training we will never know if they match the superstars of today.

Pat Howard on the Brumbies team???? I'm sorry mate, I couldn't keep reading your artical after that. Pat Howard has to be one of the worst players to ever pull on a rugby jersey..... The mere fact he is classed as a Wallaby makes me think that even I should be given a cap..... Pat Howard....pfft.

Guys, I thought Billy Ross was technically the best Wallaby hooker of the past 35 years, certainly on a par with Lawton in that regard. McBain & Foley both outstanding, but I would select Reds hookers in this order - Lawton, Ross, McBain, Foley.

Sheek i will return to this excellent post once I have done some work but your Qld team looks about right to me. Very few quibbles - I would have Foley (who played the bulk of his career in Qld) ahead of Billy Ross on the bench. Main changes at prop. I would have Pilecki as starting loosehead ahead of Darcy (great potential - but only really played 1 season of top flight rugby).

Sheek - only looking at the Qld side, and need more time! Convinced there must be alternatives to Brian Smith (but can't think of a stand-out) and Bill Ross (Mark McBain? Stephen Moore?); want to find a place for Stan Pilecki and another for Garrick Morgan; back row is just a nightmare - Ilie Tabua, Chris Roche, Jeff Miller as immediate possibles; picking 2 of Herbert, McLean and Latham is a tricky one - Latham before Herbert maybe? Latham to cover back three, Lynagh to centre if necessary with McLean covering Lynagh and goalkicking. But well-played, 3 very good teams.