Enjoy top level Aussie rugby while it lasts

TT, The draft is my suggestion, & restricted to Australia. But the idea is not unique. NSW obviously have the lion's share of players, so the idea is to move players around so that the 5 provinces are more or less equal. You can't have an unbalanced national comp. I believe the Kiwis have a draft for both the S14 & ANZ cup. I don't know why you're bringing the rest of the world into it. The draft is strictly for an Australian national comp, so it has nothing to do with other countries.. When the ARC was implemented in 2007, a draft was used to ensure Melbourne & perth for example, were competitive.

Midfielder Blacktown and Epping are in Division 3 subbies. Sheek, when did the proposed draft come up? This is the first I have heard about the draft. I think a draft system works in sports in two differant situations. 1. Where the sport is largely limited to a single domestic market in terms of players (i.e. NFL, AFL) 2. Where there is an extensive structure just below the professional level (e.g. the college setup in the US for basketball and football) Personally I dont think it would really work in Australian rugby, for the simple reason that Australia is nowhere near the centre of power in world rugby and the structure of the game is esoteric to say the least, as the pathways are hopeless. Maybe some of the Kiwi posters can advise if a draft system is used in the ANZC, as the comp seems pretty even. A pretty good argument could be put for South African rugby to accept a draft, given the Big 5 dominating Currie Cup all the time.

Sheek, it's State not province. Redb

Westy - I know what you are feeling and it seems at times that there is nothing you can do. The problem from my POV is the money. Professionalism in the West is very hard for the clubs but is expected by the players. Rugby League will pay them to play between $50-$250 a game with a win bonus. That kind on money would bankrupt both Penrith and Parramatta given the current state of income. Then there is the state of a lot of these players, most have only played league and the game of rugby shows them up as lacking some of the basics that rugby union requires. From a sponsors POV there is not a lot of coverage and not more than a few hundred supporters, with a match of the day every so often. Still the good part is they don't need much to keep it rolling, about $150k a year. Your comparison between a league game with 18,000 and a club rugby match is a bit unfair. We have 12 teams in shute shield, assuming there are 20 players per 1st grade team we need 240 players capable of playing 1st grade rugby that can play professional and entertaining rugby. Compare that to League where 9 of the 16 clubs are based in Sydney, requiring 180 1st graders from a player base much larger than rugby's and supported by licenced clubs although to a lesser extent than it was. The problem to me is clear. If we want to run a professional rugby game then there are too many clubs for the supporter base and if we reduce the number of clubs that isn't going to guarantee the success of the clubs that remain. There is also a question of history with even more tribalism than Souths RL club. Some of these rugby clubs have a very long and proud history. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell them 'your time is up'. Back to amateurism is the only way, at least how it was when I played with some assistance for the truly talented and the rest play because they like the game. The time to build a truly professional club structure was in the early 80's when the Wallabies started to perform and the crowds were still going to club rugby matches. As I have said in some posts with Sheek I cant understand why the costs are so outrageous to run a game of rugby. Still that is the reality and unless we can find a balance something will change. Parramatta, Penrith and Souths are still under threat and unless stronger sponsors can be found it doesn't look great. Still it ain't just them, other clubs are struggling too. The final story is that the rugby will go on and maybe they will look back on the dark days of the 00's as the time they built the clubs on a more solid and sustainable foundation.

Leftie, True. If/when the Victoria Rebels become the 5th rugby province in Australia, they must be competitive from the outset, as the Force have been. But hopefully, we can avoid another team like the Reds being stripped bare. This was because the players union refused to accept a draft. There's a million things worse than going to one of 5 Australian capitals to play rugby, for crying out loud! We need 5 more or less equal provinces. After that, it comes down to the desire, commitment, coaching, technique, commaraderie, etc of the players & coaching staff. Gary Gnu, You're largely right. By focusing on Wallabies & S14, the ARU haven't appeared to derive th benefit at the bottom end. At least in comparison to the other footy codes. But we should compare apples with apples, not oranges. Compare Australian rugby with NZL, SAF, Argentina & Europe. AFL, NRL & A-League have their own unique setups. Rugby also has its own unique setup.

Sheek, tribalism is definitely an important ingredient, and a very hard ingredient to create quickly, so don't remove it. But, tribalism counts for nothing if the game is a mismatch. Tribalism is built over years, sorry, decades of close matches between two teams. Another factor in "top rugby" is games where teams are evenly matched. I am in favour of a comp that levels the player stocks, as Jim L'Estrange has implemented in Premier rugby.

This is my first post in this site so please be gentle. It is great to read such consiered thought on and the ailings of Rugy and on sport in general here. The structure of rugby in Australia has been and continues to be somewhat inverted. It has a stong and broad peak of competition (Super Rugby and International sides) but a weak and narrow base in club competitions. The ARC was an attempt to remedy that problem but was deemed unviable for financial and, I suspect, political reasons. I feel that any attempt by the ARU to remedy the problem of inversion will fail as long as its focus for revenue generation remains at the provincial and international level. Sport in this country is most successful when supporters can identify and attach to a local identity en masse. This is what happens in Rugby League, Aussie Rules (note I do not lable the game as AFL) and more recently in Football's A-League. The provincial level of Rugby in Australia consists of four teams that tend to canabilise each other in the quest for success and leaves the production of talent to the often neglected clubs and less neglected private schools. Until Rugby administrators in Australia find a way to generate broadcast revenue with a braoder based and more locally identifed competition structure than the Super 14 I fear for the game's future.

Westy & Sheek This afternoon around 4:50 I came in from a training session with my football team... buggered I watched the Telly ... SBS had a champions league game on, Ch 9 had an NRL game, Ch 10 sports had a netball game, Ch 2 had a Shute Shield game Easts V R/wick ... the standard was a tad above a match I watched at Summerville Oval on Saturday between Epping & Blacktown Div ???? but park football. The SS looked very poor in every aspect crowd/ the sporting look of the players etc compared to the other sports on the other channels. My question is do you actually need to highlight the poor state of play to anyone casually tuning.. or broadcast and be dammed???

Sheek I am in the doldrums a little because despite the win for the Two blues the state of the club is not good. I think my current attitude is best summed up by a talk by Sally Loane now on the NSWRU Board. She spoke of great pride in how her then husband had to return a man of the match TV set after a rugby game to preserve his amateur rugby status. He was a great No 8 and a good man but how did this make him a better man ? I have retold the story and the general comment out here was what type of stupid game would force you to do that.it was not personal just dismay. The problem is these people still run the game.

Sheek Thankyou for the interesting history.Being a rugby supporter in Western Sydney is a hard road.So I apologise in advance for the downswings. We face a new assault from AFL and most of the establishment or their mouthpieces rant stale platitudes about rugby league. Peter Fitzsimmons is more comfortable with the eastern suburbs set who support AFL. So be it. Parramatta beat Penrith yesterday 22 to 17 at granville in the Shute Shield. One of them may soon disappear. Do the apologists realise how poor some of this premier club rugby is ? If we do not get the super boys back until even later or we lose the next best 15 to a new super franchise it will go from poor to very marginal. To grow the game we have to start with the uncomfortable acceptance that we are the number 4 code. We must not make decisions without this mindset. We were I think the number one international branded code in Australia but have slipped even there to No 2 behind the Quantas Socceroos. All is not lost but an acceptance of reality would assist. We must think locally otherwise we turn into the old Soccer Australia .......of interest every 4 years around World Cup time. One spiteful rugby league mate says a shute club rugby crowd is a few hundred people made up of lower grade players waiting for the pissup,a few GPS types ,some tall/big white woman ( AKA Sally Loanes ) looking to marry , friends and families of players. Unfair harsh nasty but with the horrible ring of truth to it.

Westy, The selection process for the captain of the 1908/09 Wallabies provides an interesting insight into the attitude of rugby folk back in the early 1900s, some of which remain with us today. You might find this amusing & aggravating at the same time! In 1906, two & a half years out, the leading candidate was Harry Judd (utility forward), a doctor by profession, who had played 5 tests 1903-05. At 26 he was still young enough. However, after breaking his leg in an interstate match against Queensland, he promptly retired. Next candidate was the luckless Cecil Murnin (a lock). He had the right connections, being Sydney Grammar educated. Murnin captained NSW in 1907, including the record-breaking crowd match against the ABs. However, he was overlooked for the first two tests. Selected for the 3rd, he dropped out when his sister died suddenly. Murnin won selection for the touring team in 1908/09 but fell ill en-route, & never played rugby again, being only 25. NSW-man labourer Peter Burge (a lock) & Queenslander Butcher Oxlade (a travelling salesman) shared the captaincy duties against the All Blacks in 1907. Come time to select the touring team in 1908, & captaincy candidates were suddenly getting thin on the ground. Judd was gone, Oxlade as a Queenslander was unacceptable, while Murnin & Burge, both originally selected to tour, were out of favour. There were one or two Sydney University players considered likely candidates for the captaincy, but both failed to nail places on the touring team. Eventually the captaincy fell to another member of the establishment, Doctor Paddy Moran (a backrower). When Moran was injured on tour, the captaincy finally fell upon the most worthy candidate on ability alone - Chris McKivat (scrum & flyhalf). But it had taken the ARU (or its predessor) a very long time to realise the most appropriate leader had been under their noses all the time. The only problem was, McKivat, a country boy, wasn't part of the establishment.

Mike M for the sake of historical accuracy Ireland and the Scots did not play the 1908/9 Wallabies because they alleged they were in receipt of professional payments re their daily allowance. . To emphasise their point the Scots refused to play England in 1910 for playing against the professionally paid Wallabies. The vast bulk of Australian rugby players in 1908 were not of the leisured classes or private school educated. Decisions then made by by NSWRU still reverberate today. Burdon a NSW rugby playerin 1907 was a barber and the decision not to compensate him for the shoulder injuries he suffered meaning he did not have an income for 10 weeks playing for NSW created much bad blood . The decision was made by professional rugby administrator .I always marvel at how we lost over 70% of our amateur juniors to rugby league by late 1930.s without pokies if we were serving the people who played the game.This is not pleasant reading. I watched the NRL game at Campbelltown between Wests Tigers and Newcastle before a packed local ground of 18000. I enjoyed myself immensely. My regret I doubt I will ever see this in Australian club rugby.To put it crudely unlike SA NZ and France we turned our backs on the ordinary punter. SA , NZ and France kept them and their domestic rugby thrives. I think we made a terrible mistake for which we still pay in not seeking local solutions instead following foriegn edicts. JON understands this and seeks solutions at the top end. If we were really serious about developing the game of rugby in western Sydney we would have invested in the Waratah academy facilities at Blacktown Olympic park with 10 million Local government grant with a message here we are .Sorry forgot that is the AFL. I and everyone on this site knows there would have been no thought whatsoever of locating those training facilities in Blacktown.There is the rub.

HIYA, There are yet other alternatives. For me, an APC is still the best alternative. I've mentioned this before - each of the 4 southern hemisphere countries run their own domestic provincial comps, then maybe the top two from each country (8 teams max) play off in a separate champions Cup or whatever, a mini-style Heineken Cup. In addition, you have a 4N with Argentina included. Meanwhile, find a window in the season to allow leading players an opportunity to turn out 4-5 times for their premier rugby district clubs.

Sheek You would play the Currie Cup within the conference - hence the 8 south African teams included - it would be them + 4 provinces from Argentina who are playing within the conference but not for the Currie Cup. - it's not that hard. and means they don't need more weeks in the calendar to run another competition. It's like having an OZ comp for the Force/Waratahs/Brumbies/Reds running within the Super 14 now. And Premiers clubs don't see their contracted players that much as it is.. As sad as it is that's the way it is.. Super Rugby needs a longer season for franchises to have more home games - at the moment OZ has 2 teams on the verge of going bust. OR We could have another remodelled version of the ARC which no-one would still go to and eventually run the ARU broke?

Leftie, So you mean.....tribalism? Gets back to my suggestion of a national comp. As good as Waratahs vs Crusaders might be; or Brumbies vs Bulls, Aussies want to see Aussies belting each other! And find a window of opportunity in the season for leading players to turn out for Randwick vs Sydney Easts; Eastwood vs Parramatta; Brothers vs Sunnybank, Brisbane Easts vs GPS, etc.

James, as much as I enjoy your work, I strongly disagree with the premise of your article. Any game of rugby can be "top level", if you define Top level as entertaining, exciting and skilful. It is not about the calibre or repuations of the players. You will wait for a long time to see the elite player transform a game with a moment of brilliance. Elite players sometimes produce boring games. e.g. RWC semis and final in 2007; the 2009 Waratahs; 1st half of season 2008 Waratahs. Players in the Under 13 G's can games can produce boring rugby. Top rugby comes from the closeness of the contest, the brutality of the physical contest, the number and nature of the tries and the context in which they are scored and finally, the spirit in which the game is played. These factors are as equally likely to come about in any game of rugby as long as the referee is competent, the competition is well matched, the coaches and players play within the spirit of the game and with an understanding of the various tools available to win games. Finally, Top rugby is not The Waratahs V Crusaders in ANZ Stadium's vaccuous atmosphere!!!! Give me a club game, any time, featuring a local derby, Rats V Marlins, Randwick V Easts, etc and with both teams playing expansive rugby.

HIYA, You say don't interfere with the Currie Cup, but prior to that proceed to talk about a 22-28 week conference comp. And people wonder why the Saffies are blowing up about a 22-24 week S15 comp. And why Sydney & Brisbane premier rugby hate such a concept. At the very worst, they would like to see their stars playing for their clubs for a couple of games. Your suggestion makes that totally impossible. We all need to go back to basics, & ask ourselves exactly what we want at each level of our seasonal structure, & it's role in the whole scheme of things.

Stillmissit, True, You had NSW vs Queensland; Sydney vs Queensland; Sydney vs NSW Country; Sydney North Harbour vs Sydney South Harbour & National Club Championship (Sydney vs Brisbane). But not all at the same time. By the time the Club Championship came into vogue, the North Harbour vs South Harbour had gone. And all the leading players were seen in action against whichever team was touring Australia. However, one thing was often obvious - the Wallabies usually always conceded the first test, especially against strong opposition (eg, ABs). This was because our leading players didn't have enough tough competition going into the early test matches. Even in the 60s, 70s & 80s, it was obvious the Sydney & Brisbane premier rugby comps weren't giving the players the sufficient hardening preparation. These comps are fine for preparing players for the next step (provincial, then test) but not by themselves. Anyway, today we need: 1. A structure that attracts & provides a pathway for youth from juniors to Wallabies. 2. A sufficient professional base that provides competition & preparation (& living) for the leading players. 3. While protecting & indeed, enshrining the role of premier clubs in the process. But as usual, I'm just peeing into the wind.

I've seen this on here before and think the best way is to include the Currie Cup into Super Rugby. Have the 8 Currie Cup sides and add 4 teams from ARGENTINA in a conference of 12 AND 5 Aus/5 NZ teams + 1 from Jap and 1 Pac islands combo in a conference of 12. The conferences play home and away - giving 22 rounds or 23 if you throw in a bye. THEN Atlantic top 4 and Pacific top 4 play off in finals.. would be around 27 weeks 28 at the most.. - Plusses - doesn't interfere with Currie Cup - all their players are available, allows Argentina (Beunos Airies/Cordoba/Tucuman/Cuyo) to develop players at home and then join the tri-nations without relying on European based players, breaks into Asia, develops Pacific islands (where they play etc is problematic however) travel costs should reduce in comparison to perceived increase in revenue if Rupert wants to screen into Asia and South America. should leave room for inbound and outbound tours plus 4-nations and a sizeable break for off-season ????

Sheek we used to have several when I was playing. There was the state v state games, Country v City, North Harbour v South Harbour and club play off for best club in the country. If only the administrators could recognise that all we need is a competition, we don't need all the paraphernalia that went with the ARC. The costs were unbelievable. regards