Club rugby as the basis for a rugby evolution

i've been looking at some of the ideas for an australian comp and they're all good in certain ways. My suggestion would be for players who are fringe super14 players to come across the ditch and play a season of ANZC while everyones debating what to do for development in Aus.

The sought of professionalism that should be undertaken in a re-focused Club Rugby scene could look a little like this. Payments ranging from between 30-50 thousand dollars depending on the players . They train in the mornings and in the evenings. They work during the day through jobs sourced and provided by the Clubs.

The point of the "3rd tier" appears to be to ensure professional rugby at a level below S14. As such, it needs to be able to attract funding to pay those wages. It doesn't need to be mega bucks. But even paying a 25 man squad $30-50K each a seaon adds up. Semi-pro getting $20-30K a year may be the starting point to build from, but fully pro is preferred as ir ensures the quality. Getting the funding means TV income and/or gate takings. TV income tends to provide that more easily. TV income means the game has to be attrractive to watch (thus requiring to a degree professionalism, and a bit of a vicious circle). Attractive games come down to good rugby, but also derbies. Local passion gets people interested. The NRL and AFL are proof. I believe the ARC provided attractive football, but leaked too much money to be given enough time to be a success. The derby element was missing a bit, but could have grown given time. The alternative may well be to grow club rugby as suggested. THis would certainly provide the derby passion, but also needs to be able to grow or you end up with the problem the ARL had leading into the Super League war - too many sides in one area and not enough in others. I think the ARC may have had 2 fundamental problems that club rugby may overcome if built on correctly, and if patience is shown. The first is travel. This is a buge cost that sucks up money. It's all very well to talk about teams from Perth and Melbourne, and Sydney teams playing Brisbane sides, but if you have a lot of teams spread over this continent of a country the travel costs add up. The 2nd is building off the existing support. From memory the ARC leaked about $3m, and something like $1m was through the Melbourne club. Hardly suprising given it was essentially starting a team from scratch. At least the Perth Spirit had the Force to piggy back off. Derbies like Randwick v Uni or Eastwood v Gordon or Brothers v GPS bring out great passion. Even people who don't support the actual teams can be interested in it, and be brought into the sport that way. I became a Balmain Tigers fan in league through a mate, without any links to Balmain, but now that's my team. This can apply to rugby as well (don't start me on all the Brumbies supprters in Sydney who've never lived in Canberra for instance). The challenge is how to turn the current club comp into a professional comp, where the S14 players will most usually be never seen, and nurture the elements needed for it to grow over time - professionalism & quality, and passion via derbies. Keep in mind tha current Shute Shield sides are grouped in the North Shore and Eastern Suburbs, and the weakest teams in the west and south. The growth areas, and where rugby needs to expand, are those areas. But at some point this will mean probably losing or merging teams in the current bastions of the sport, to allow the sport to grow. And the bastions will fight. This is an issue the league (and soccer) has been wrestling with for 20-30 years. The relegation/promotion system may be one way to allow this. The challenge system is interesting, as it filters out teams that might go up and flounder. Although there is also the advantage of the incumbent being hardened in the top comp. I can't see a full East Coast comp in the next 5-10 years. I think it needs to grow organically from the current comps. For for Sydney there definitely needs to be a focus to the west and south to bolster those sides and grow the game there. Part of this may be dropping the number of grades fielded. Never forget subbies. They are a huge number of players, and the comp is to a great degree allowed to organise itself. Anyone who knows the comp knows how many teams pop up and disappear, and also how many bottom grades are players backing up. There may need to be some reorganisation to help integrate with a larger comp, although my fear is scaring away the players who play for the fun, and not because they want to see their club topping the comp every year or getting promoted. Fact is club rugby needs to be looked at, because it is just puttering along at present. It needs to grow into a professional level if the sport in Australia is to take that next step.

Now that the S15 is inevitable. The next 18 months is the perfect time to re-vamp or re- organise the various club competitions. Creating the 2 Tier Sydney competition. With a Premier Division and the developmental 2nd division that reaches players all the way down to the park footballers. The Queensland Competition opening up to allow the most competitive country sides to get involved. In WA. The creation of a Districts set-up. Based on the the WAFL. Creating new districts teams for the existing sides to feed into will form a stronger and more competitive competitions that will produce a higher standard of player. The focus of these districts along with providing competitive teams will be to grow the player base not only in the Metro area. But in the country. For every country side they help establish which ever district is involved will gain exclusive access to any talent that the country club may produce. In Victoria. The current Premier clubs should form the basis of their top competition. With perhaps another team joining them in the short term with 2 country sides joining into the future. Not sure what to do with SA. Aggressive development will be needed. Build up the numbers. Involve the Adelaide Falcons in either one of the top line state competitions.

Interesting thread, especially if it indicates a willingness on the part of the clubs to modify competition structures to account for evolution in the sport. Anything that improves the development path for players and pits the best against the best in a logical progression towards professionalism can only be good, especially if it represents a more efficient use of funding and encourages more sponsorship involvement. I am personally a little uncertain about promotion/relegation, as my preference is always toward having a clear and unbiased path for any kid regardless of where he happens to live. That can be difficult with P/R, as there will inevitably be some clubs that are forever at the lower level requiring a talented kid to move if he wishes to be noticed. I am also uncertain about the idea that some clubs would play in both divisions - would that meant that their Premier club could be demoted and they field two teams in First division? But they are just details. Given that it could initially be a NSWRU initiative alone, surely this could be feasible in short order? Could it even be as simple as defining Premier and First division clubs from the standings at the end of this year? Anything that can reduce funding requirements and improve the product has to be good.

I'm not saying that a new team should be added on a yearly basis. Each team will have to achieve set organisational and financial criteria. And a required level of competitiveness. They won't even be considered unless this is achieved. Alternativelt the development division could be just that. Perhaps adding teams isn't a option but a set second division that are aligned with the Premier clubs would be a good idea. It provides a clear pathway for kids in many country areas. From playing junior club Rugby. The best move up into the 2nd division where they play against the best from other regions on a weekly basis and feed directly into the Premier comp. which in turn exposing them to the Super sides. The 2nd division could even be a strictly Colts set-up.

If you are trying to bridge the gap between Super Rugby and club rugby then I would be advocating less teams in a Premier comp than more. If there were 16 teams the comp would be very very ordinary in terms of quality. Also I like the idea of Rob (I think) when he mentioned ARU should direct players to certain clubs to help develop areas, particularly in Parra and Penrith. Having a more even comp will only help the quality and as a flow on the Waratahs and the other provinces.

The whole idea would be to get the Premier division number up to 16 teams within a reasonable time period. For those who miss out on Promotion into the Premier Division the development comp will continue. They will just align themselves with one of the Premier clubs and provide the development pathway into the top state comp.

Well at the moment they are completely ignoring the area. Maybe if Rugby 7's gains Olympic status it may provide the funds and impetus for them to finally stop sitting on their hands. A re-vamped Sydney Club comp should be more of a State Club comp. If not relegation then how about this. The Premier division. With the current 12 clubs. Below it a development comp. With all those other districts or subbies clubs who wish to gain access to the Premier division compete with each other and perhaps even the 2nd's from the Premier division to allow them time to 1. Become competitve and 2. Develop a appropriate player base within their regions. Say 12 junior clubs affiliated with the club. for teams like say Illawarra the competitiveness would be their issue due to the fact they already have around 15 junior and senior clubs to call on for players.

Perhaps I should expand on previous post a bit. In Sydney, rather than looking to cull Parramatta, Penrith & Souths, I would consider them sacrosanct. These are massive youth growth areas. To cull these clubs is moronic thinking of the worst kind. One thing Bruce said I agree with, is the reduction in teams per club from 7 to 4. I would be willing to compromise at 5 teams, providing they all played at the same ground. Having only 4-5 teams per club would make life so much easier, & perhaps spread the available talent around a bit more evenly.

Rob, Although I didn't say it previously, I oppose Bruce's idea of promotion & relegation, which has also been pushed by other Roarers, on the grounds that Australian rugby isn't ready for it. For one thing, the east-north axis clubs would dominate, & players would gravitate to higher division clubs, as others have suggested. If I were running rugby, whether it was Sydney, NSW or Australia, I would stand my ground & declare - "We're going to have a rugby presence in this country/state/city at every point of the compass - north, south, east, west. This is non-negotiable, now let's make it happen!"

Looking on the NSWRU website, I cannot find a singe developmnet officer, anywhere! Some lovely writing about how important development. Links to the clubs in the area etc.. So they put the development of the sport entirely at the feet of the (totally underresourced) clubs!!!

In my opinion its all about development officers for the kids and the "stacking" for want of a better word of state or international players into those clubs presently in need ie a bit like a draft system paid by ARU. If you have been a sales rep you cold call but you dont let rejection stop you. You keep on calling back and getting your face known by the client and building up a rapport. After a 3rd or 4th visit the chances are you will get a few nibbles. Same with Rugby development officers. Keep going out to the west and dont be put off. Why not shift Wallaby/ Waratah training to the west on a regular basis--not the token efforts that happen now Get rid of the likes of Camp Coffs (altho probably already done ) and make it Camp Penrith. Dont let the fringe Wallabies get recruited by the top 4/5 clubs. If they're on a salary paid by the ARU make them play out westso that those teams aren't easy beats and the kids that you are targetting thru your dev. squads have got someone local to look up to. But, Sheek, would the Eatern suburbs clubS support this?

WCR, Creating a super team in Western Sydney doesn't necessarily improve the plight of rugby players & fans in the area. It halves the number of teams, & the number of opportunities for places, both for players & coaches, & the chance to one day see Parramatta play Penrith in the grand final. As improbable as that thought might be at present. I recall reading a study that businesses amalgamating very rarely means that the new entity doubles its total business. That in fact, the gain is usually only an incremental one not worth the folding of two companies. Of course, monopolies & oligarchies might be exceptions to the rule. In any case, I offer Germany as my example. At the 1988 Seoul Olympics, East Germany won 37 gold medals, 35 silver & 30 bronze. West Germany won 11 gold medals, 14 silver & 15 bronze. After unification in 1990, & the issue of drugs aside, a reasonable person might have thought the new unified Germany capable of winning in the region of 48 gold medals, 49 silver & 45 bronze at the 1992 Olympics. However, at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, the new, unified Germany won 33 gold medals, 21 silver & 28 bronze. So combining resources doesn't automatically mean you double your results. What the west requires is a more concerted effort from both the ARU & NSWRU to tap into the enormous reservoirs of youth in the region. More development officers, more coaches, more player participants. It's easier preaching to the already converted in the eastern suburbs & north shore. Both the ARU & NSWRU must be prepared to do the hard yards.

The Syd University model works well and should be replicated by UNSW and other uni's around the country. Sports scholarships......... Put the tender out to all clubs and see what happens. make it a transparent process........

Well I know. I am willing to hear other ideas.

WCR, This is plain crazy talk. I know I have the appropriate response, but I just can't think of the appropriate example. It's past midnight, & I'm retiring. Perhaps when I wake up in the morning, I'll know exactly how I mean to explain myself.

And that's why I believe a Western Sydney club is needed. Parramatta and Penrith are weak organisations or at least percieved as. The fact are that the NSWRU and ARU either don't realise or don't care about what is sitting on their doorstep. So its about time the West strikes back. Form their own comp. develop it and provide children with a real alternative. and now for the contreversial bit. Go overseas to Japan, England, Ireland, France offer them the opportunity to gain access to talent that is developed in the region. Don't think they won't buy in. Just highlight how many NRL players have come out of the region. Sorry. But it's come to that. Victoria and the Force will also have right to recruit.

Sheek Do you have any ideas as to rectify the situation. There aren't a awful lot of clubs in Western Sydney. So why not form what is out there into their own independent club competition that feeds into one united club that allows so many talented but often overlooked juniors a opportunity to show what they have to offer. And believe me the talent that is lost because of this is criminal. A single entity club could better develop their own competition. I'd imagine it would be semi-pro. A club like this is needed. If only to give the NSWRU,ARU and SYDRU a stiff jolt. If one club is not enough. Then how about Western Sydnet and Macaethur/Cumberland. The Macarthur club could encompass Liverpool, Campbelltown and their surrounding district plus the Illawarra Districts.

WCR Sometimes it is funny what people post in all innocence... right now as we speak the AFL are spending about 100 million dollars over five years to develop AFL, RL has built a training academy at Penrith, NSW Football is building a 40 million dollar training academy at Riverstone, which is in between Parra & Penrith. The AFL has signed about 8 RU junior rep players from U 15 to U 17.... Meaning RU right now in WS is getting the Kids the others don't want... and the code is dieing ... RU needs help in WS