Understrength Socceroos get the job done

If it was me I would get rid of the extra holding midfielder and stick Kennedy or even Cahill up from with him...but what do I know :(

Vicentin Slippery Jim That is the problem isnt it & why were all talking around in circles. No clear world class goal scoring ability amongst our players. Mcdonald I agree so far is not the answer,but Pims problem is who is? So does he throw the baby out with the bathwater or stick with him,particularly as we have no clear better replacement.

Vicentin. I am a huge Scotty fan and have touted his world class goal scoring ability (he has scored 41 goals in 66 appearances at Celtic), but I agree with you. The fact he hasn't scored for the socceroos in 12 matches makes it dubious to believe that that is going to change much in the future, especially with Pim's lack of tactical and formational flexibility. The trouble is, we have very few quality strikers as it is. For the lone striker role a big strong, preferably fast striker is preferable (Djite fits the description but is lacking form at national level), and there are very few fresh stocks available.

My point being that regardless of whether we think Macdonald is a capable striker how can he help the Socceroos? We don't play a style that suits an old-school specialist centre forward/poacher and he doesn't have "the game" to play differently. Viduka doesn't score for Australia but he brings so much (and so many) to the game by holding the ball up and distributing - a target man. Jesus does this too - though not as well, but is a better header of the ball, while Ruka and Djite are big enough and strong enough that they could play this role more effectively than Macdonald, plus they can run at defenders with the ball at their feet (and with great speed in the case of Ruka). Bottom line is I can't see what Macdonald brings to the Australia team - and I can't see it regularly as a result of Pim giving him so many chances.

Rob Jolted the memory & agree about Romario & Van Nistelroy. But I remember Ruud most at ManU for his being Johnny on the spot, whether he was an equally effective poacher for the Netherlands National team I doubt it given modern International defences. Romario was also able to create goals as well as poach them something Mcdonald is not capable of,particularly at International level. I think Harry was tired. His stepping on the ball was a sign of this. The more I think about the more I think Pim has realised we cant create goals around a striker as there are non of a high quality(like Inzaghi). For certain matches he can use Kennedys aerial power,but not all. He often brings him on as a substitute. Hence what is not an obvious attacking line up yet we still get the goals.

Vicentin First your point about Inzaghi? Are you stating hes a poacher ? I havent seen him enough to make an accurate judgement but as a footballer Scott Mcdonald doesnt come close. Mcdonald.-He scores goals for Celtic & being fair I have only seen snippets of goals for him. Of those I've seen maybe poacher as per Gerd or Jimmy (well they were in a league of their own,appearing in space almost magically at the right time even for balls that accidentally landed in space) is not the correct term. More probably that he suits Celtics style of play & team formation & his goals are a result of crap defending from the other Scottish clubs. When he is confronted by an organised International defence as per most nowadays he struggles..Having seen every match for the Socceroos hes been he may be being picked on reputation in my book by Pim with some hope that he can fit in. Last night was a chance to show Pim he could do so. I dont see him being a first team pick under Pim,but he is probably better than some others at the moment. If say Bruce Djite keeps improving I see Mcdonald slipping down the pecking order of strikers. Lets face it we are not blessed with great strikers. You have as a coach to do what you can in respect to that.

Towser, Romario was a magnificent poacher. As vicentin said, so too is Pippo Inzaghi, while Ruud Van Niistelroy is another. Plenty of them going around, I think you will find. As for the game, yeah, the first half was dull, and I am starting to really feel for Scotty Mac. he's a quality player, but really needs to stick one away to get it over with, get the nerves out. It must be driving him nuts! Second half I thought there was more continuity, but bloody Harry Kewell stepping on the ball all night! how frustrating! While not subscribing to the "Nicky Carle is the best thing since sliced bread" school of thought, I would have liked to see him given about 20-30mins to see what he can do. This was probably the game to do it too, given Japan will be a sterner test. Who knows what the next game will bring? Bring on SA! Love your work, Pim.

I don't know how you guys can type. My fingers are just recovering from the frost-bite they got last night. Goddamn it was cold out there at homebush!

Towser - Pippo Inzaghi. I'd argue he's actually a better footballer than most (ie nearly everyone) gives him credit for. So, is Macdonald a poacher Tow? If he is, why do we play him and if he isn't ....why do we play him? As discussed earlier I have plenty of time for Pim but I find some of his selections absolutely baffling. cheers ...lunch beckons.

How many great poachers are there today & have there been in modern International football. Using a spring to mind ,spur of the moment thought Gerd Muller & even then in his prime defences were naive compared with the present. Modern International football is so organised defensively that the poacher is almost obsolete. A poacher needs some space for his poaching no matter how instinctive he is. I remember ace poacher Jimmy Greaves in his heyday. Scored lots of times for England as well as club football. But even teams lower down the FIFA rankings are organised tactically by experienced European coaches & Bahrain had one in Czech Milan Macala . In my book Jimmy & Gerd would have struggled today to replicate their goalscoring feats. Todays goalscorers are more likely to be a Messi who can break open tight defences by his close control or defence splitting pass. The poacher space is marked today by an informed tactically aware defender. As I've said before International football is about results channelled through a need to express national pride. You would understand this more if brought up in a country were football has historically been the national sport. The fear of losing is not just a matter of losing a football match it is a matter of losing "National" face. Rembering that developing football nations are in many instances being coached by coaches from such countries(ieAustralia & Bahrain). Hence Pim has no trouble sleeping hes getting the results. To emphasise this Milan Macala a man from a similar football background praises Pim the FFA the job lot in Australia,worth a read for a point of view from another "Brickie in the trade":- http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/105232,roosasian-move-a-masterstroke.aspx

Cheers Vicentin, we agree, back later to read more comments... ~~~~~~~~~ KB

Regarding Macdonald, I agree with KB - he clearly is capable of scoring goals for Celtic where he spends all his time as a poacher in the penalty box in a team that attacks and pummels all opposition (bar Rangers) in a piss-weak League. I don't know why Pim thinks he'd be effective in the sort of set-up we play ... horses for courses and I don't see Macca's style and Australia's ever intersecting. How many long balls (in the air) were played to him in the first 10 minutes last night?! Why?!!! Why not use Djite, Ruka, Jesus etc, even if they aren't as good at "poaching" as Macdonald as there doesn't appear to be a lot of poaching to be done anyway - and yes the chances he had last night he absolutely blew anyway.

I have to agree with Towser. I have not been enamoured with the Verbeek style in some of our games, but there have been occasions when we've looked good, eg vs Holland, 4-0 thrashing of Qatar, 3-0 thrashing of Qatar etc. Last night we played our B team almost - only Schwarzer, Wilkshire, Culina, Kewell of the starting XI have claims to be in our best XI. So the first half was pretty average, a few players realising that international football is much harder than they (we) thought. Actually thought the introduction of Grella (which I derided at the time when I saw him making the sub) made us play better. Jedinak was not very effective, and Grella just seemed to get the ball moving more, partnering well with Culina. Just knew that people would say that Carle's 7 minutes were the best 7 minutes of the game! A bit of one-eyed supporting is always fun. Did sort of hope though that he'd score or set a goal up, just to REALLY stir things up on forums/blogs etc. Verbeek's done a good job, maybe we don't play the prettiest football but topping the group is a great achievement thus far. Bring on WC2010!

AndrewM, great post; you got in before me, I posted my comment on the wrong thread .. appologies for reposting it here again... Middie wrote: Holman … defies selection … aside from setting up Scotty for a goal everything he did was … well being kind not of the class of the team he is in.. Midfielder, Again I was disappointed by Pimbo’s unwillingness to change his tactics ... If ever a team needs a playmaker it’s this one... But for the last miserable 10 minutes he gave Nicky Carle the team played crap football .. The only bright note to come out of last night was Milligan showing some useful form as a deputy for one of the central defenders with some much needed steel in the defence.. However, not in the same class of Craig Moore who must be rushed back as soon as possible.. Poor Scotty .. not his fault entirely, he is not playing the role he is designed for .. He is a goal poacher who needs to be in and around the box. He’s not a target man he is a born goal poacher that Pimbo continually does not understand the type of player he is; he has to have a playmaker behind him .. And he would do better playing alongside Jesus.. Holman, the best thing he could do for his country, is to announce his retirement from international football; simply put he is third rate; tho did deliver one delightful ball to Scotty who was terrible on the night... If Pimbo can’t play Scotty in his customary role for Celtic, it would be better for all to leave him out... ~~~~~~~ KB

Lets not also forget this was only half a dead rubber. Bahrain had everything to play for & in my book never threatened.

2010 Round Four - Round Four - Group A Table Overall Home Away RK TEAM GP W D L GS GA W D L GS GA W D L GS GA GD P 1 Australia 7 5 2 0 10 0 3 0 0 8 0 2 2 0 2 0 10 17 2 Japan 7 4 3 0 10 4 1 3 0 3 2 3 0 0 7 2 6 15 3 Bahrain 7 2 1 4 5 8 1 0 2 3 4 1 1 2 2 4 -3 7 4 Qatar 8 1 3 4 5 14 1 2 1 4 4 0 1 3 1 10 -9 6 5 Uzbekistan 7 1 1 5 5 9 1 0 3 4 3 0 1 2 1 6 -4 Pim stands on his above record. There are 208 FIFA members. 32 get to the World Cup. Just done a quick check of the FIFA members below, approx 140 nations have never appeared in a World Cup & most of those never will. Pim is a national hero. BIt of World Cup perspective needed here from a nation that has only got its football act together in the last 4 years. http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/associations.html Game itself. First half poor,disjointed,too many wayward passes. Understandable given 1 training session,tired players,juggling players on yellow cards etc. Second better. Scott Mcdonald-jurys still out as a National team player. Anxiety played its part no doubt.

Holman - the anti-man in the hole - Mr poor-first-touch - Run around Brett - the potential monikers are almost limitless.

Mid - you stole my theories. On photographic evidence the senior person is Pim himself - now they have complementary ludicrous hair styles too! Do a DNA test!

Vicentin I think I know why Holman is in the side... he has a photo of someone high up at FFA doing something they should not be doing ....or my other theory is he is the love child of a senior FFA person

...and I think you'll find those two actions of Holman in 83 minutes of game were the only notable things he did. And for those who will bring up his shooting (or was that his first touch?) - his two shots on goal wouldn't have troubled the skin on a rice pudding let alone a goalkeeper. Now I understand the idea of "the defensive attacking midfielder" but I do not see the point of it if he is taking up the central position of your midfield (traditional playmaker role) and your actual striker isn't doing any pressing either. What I saw last night was a guy running around a lot and constantly dragging himself out of position so that there was a big whole in central midfield where traditionally most creative play takes place. In the few minutes that Carle was on I also saw a guy constantly moving but in such a fashion that he was always presenting himself in positions to receive the ball and dragging OPPOSING players out of position and creating enough space for others to exploit. I know Pim has done the job and I actually like the guy and he's got us to another world cup BUT can't you give Carle a bit more time on park .... seven minutes of regular time! Sheeeeesh.