It has always been a source of great regret for me that the Rugby World Cup didn’t arrive earlier, say 1983. There were many fine players running around then, especially Australians, whose presence would have enriched such a comp.
Not to mention the many fine players from elsewhere.
Of course, this is an argument that can go as far back as possible depending on one’s vintage. There are probably plenty of Welshmen of a certain generation who wish for example, there had been a World Cup in the early to mid 70s, when Wales were one of the best rugby teams around.
But let’s look at 1983 and I’ll just present composite squads of 22, without too much comment, as close as possible to what might have been chosen back then. If the selections generate any comment, I can discuss this in my replies.
Players who retired in tests in 1982 are assumed to have made themselves available in 1983 with the knowledge the world cup was coming. Also defections to league are deferred a year, and injuries at the time are ignored for the purpose of the exercise.
It’s a wish list of realistically potential best available at the time.
AUSTRALIA: Roger Gould, David Campese, Mick O’Connor, Mike Hawker, Brendan Moon, Mark Ella(vc), Phil Cox, Mark Loane(c), Chris Roche, Simon Poidevin, Steve Williams, David Hillhouse, Andy McIntyre, Billy Ross, Tony D’Arcy. Bench: Glen Ella, Andy Slack, Tony Parker, Steve Tuynman, Nigel Holt, Stan Pilecki, Mark McBain.
NEW ZEALAND: Allan Hewson, Stu Wilson, Steve Pokere, Warwick Taylor, Bernie Fraser, Wayne Smith, Dave Loveridge(vc), Murray Mexted, Graham Mourie(c), Mark Shaw, Andy Haden, Gary Whetton, Andy Knight, Andy Dalton, John Ashworth. Bench: Robbie Deans, Craig Green, Andy Donald, Jock Hobbs, Graeme Higginson, Kevin Boroevich, Hika Reid.
ENGLAND: Dusty Hare, John Carleton, Clive Woodward, Paul Dodge, Mike Slemen, Les Cusworth, Steve Smith(vc), John Scott, Peter Winterbottom, Nick Jeavons, Maurice Colclough, Bill Beaumont(c), Gary Pearce, Peter Wheeler, Colin Smart. Bench: Marcus Rose, Huw Davies, Nigel Melville, Bob Hesford, Steve Bainbridge, Phil Blakeway, Steve Mills.
FRANCE: Serge Blanco, Patrice Lagisquet, Phillippe Sella, Didier Codorniou, Patrick Esteve, Jean-Patrick Lescaboura, Jerome Gallion(vc), Jean-Luc Joinel, Jean-Pierre Rives(c), Laurent Rodriguez, Jean Condom, Jean-Claude Orso, Robert Paparemborde, Phillippe Dintrans, Pierre Dospital. Bench: Jean-Baptiste Lafond, Didier Camberabero, Pierre Berbizier, Dominic Erbani, Alain Lorieux, Michel Cremaschi, Daniel Dubroca.
WALES: Mark Wyatt, Elgan Rees, Dave Richards, Rob Ackerman, Clive Rees, Gareth Davies(c), Terry Holmes, Eddie Butler(vc), Dai Pickering, Jeff Squire, Dick Moriarty, Bob Norster, Graham Price, Billy James, Stack Jones. Bench: Mark Ring, Malcolm Dacey, Gerald Williams, Gareth Williams, John Perkins, Ian Stephens, Alan Phillips.
SCOTLAND: Andy Irvine(c), Keith Robertson, Jim Renwick, Dave Johnston, Roger Baird, John Rutherford, Ray Laidlaw, Ian Paxton, Doug Leslie, Jim Calder, Alan Tomes, Bill Cuthbertson, Ian Milne, Colin Deans, Jim Aitken(vc). Bench: Peter Dods, Bryan Gossman, Gordon Hunter, Derek White, John Beattie, Gerry McGuinness, Rob Cunningham.
IRELAND: Hugo MacNeill, Trevor Ringland, Dave Irwin, Mike Kiernan, Moss Finn, Ollie Campbell(vc), Robbie McGrath, Willie Duggan, Fergus Slattery, John O’Driscoll, Moss Keane, Donal Lenihan, Gerry Mcloughlin, Ciaran Fitzgerald(c), Phil Orr. Bench: Paul Dean, Tony Ward, Mike Bradley, Col Tucker, Ronan Kearney, Mike Fitzpatrick, Harry Harbinson.
ARGENTINA: Martin Sansot, Jose Palma, Marcelo Loffreda, Rafael Madero, Marcelo Campo, Hugo Porta(c), Guillermo Soares-Gache, Ernesto Ure, Tomas Petersen(vc), Gabriel Travaglini, Alejandro Iachetti, Gustavo Milano, Topo Rodriguez, Andres Courreges, Serafin Dengra. Bench: Bernado Miguens, Diego Cuesta-Silva, Javier Miguens, Jorge Allen, Eliseo Branca, Fernando Morel, Alejandro Cubelli.
South Africa were finding themselves increasingly isolated and it is unlikely they would have been invited, especially after the civil turmoil caused during their 1981 tour of New Zealand.
However, they would have had a formidable team if participating, with a dazzling backline to complement their usual tough forwards.
SOUTH AFRICA: Johan Heunis, Ray Mordt, Willie du Plessis, Danie Gerber, Carel du Plesis, Naas Botha, Divan Serfontein(vc), Theuns Stofberg(c), Rob Louw, Burger Geldenhuys, Louis Moolman, Shalk Burger, Hempies du Toit, Uli Schmidt, Ockie Oosthuizen. Bench: Colin Beck, Michael du Plessis, Barry Wolmarans, Jannie Breedt, Rudi Visagie, Flippie van der Merwe, Chris Rogers.
For fans of my generation, many of these names leap off the page, so many great players, so many competitive teams. So who would have won?
Well firstly, we will assume the inaugural RWC in 1983 was held in the northern hemisphere, with the final probably at Twickenham. With South Africa out of the picture, it would largely depend on who was drawn against who in the pools.
In any case, I reckon Australia, New Zealand and France would have been semi-finalists, with any of the other five making up the fourth semi-finalist.
Argentina had the talent to make the final four, but whether they had enough ‘big occasion’ nous about them at the time, was a concern for them.
Note that Ireland were Five Nations champions in 1982 (England and Scotland equal second), and shared the title in 83 with France, while Scotland were champions in 84 (France runners-up).
As for inaugural RWC champions in 1983, had it happened, France would have been the team to have peaked at the right time.
It was interesting when Australia toured France in 1983 they were terrified of playing their expansive running game against the lightning quick French backline, who would have punished poorly executed moves in a flash.
The French also had a powerful, aggressive pack, with a good mixture of youth and experience. And of course, they were led by Jean-Pierre Rives, the “Victor Trumper of rugby”, who would not have been out of place as a hero in a golden age.
You could not but admire the beauty and courage of his play.
As for their opponents, it would have been Australia or New Zealand, depending on who played who in the semis. Australia had the most creative backline in the game, but their forward pack was solid at best, rather than the great machine it became 12 months later.
New Zealand were clinically efficient in everything they did, as per usual at the time. Although the British and Irish teams were on a decline at the time, they would still have been enormously competitive.
Anyway, enjoy the trip down memory lane.
Parisien
Guest
Could computer game fans tell me if virtual rugby is any good? Would it be possible to hold a virtual 1983 World Cup? Idle thinking while waiting for the France -South Africa kick-off...
Parisien
Guest
Great read Sheek. What a bunch of good players spread across the world! Is the spread so even today, and will the players be remembered as fondly 25 years on? Well done Sheek on putting it all together, and Robbo for remembering Romania.
Harry
Guest
The Argies had a very very good side around then. Recall them destroying the Australian scrum at Ballymore in 1983 with Topo leading the way. Their geat flyhalf Hugo Porter was probably past his prime then - fairly portly on that tour I recall - but still a deadly boot and able (to use the modern terminology) to steer his team around the park with great expertise.
sheek
Guest
Wow Johnno - looks like you copped it in triplicate. Impatient sod I am waiting for reply to go through!
sheek
Guest
Johnn042, Ditto what Shahsan said. A man with his mind closed to the past remains in the dark.
sheek
Guest
Johnno42, Ditto what Shahsan said. A man with a closed mind on the past remains in the dark. It might surprise you to know rugby was played long before 2000..........
Shahsan
Guest
That;s a bit rude. As if what you say on any of the threads on the current tours -- on team selections or who played well and who didn't or what the coach -- has any more relavance and meaning. If you can't join in this discussion, then don't.
johnno42
Guest
fascinatin... lets all get in there and play "what if" and "lets pretend" games. guys the spring tours are happenin as we speak... helloooooo
sheek
Guest
Yeah, the Boks in 83 would have scared me assuming we lived in a perfect world. It would have taken a mighty effort from the Wallas, ABs or French of the day to topple them. But, it could have been done, all the same. Remember, the basis of the Boks team in 83 put 50 points on the South American Jaguars (actually Argentina Pumas) in 82, only to lose the return match.
Ziggy
Guest
Sheek, that's why Botha at Fly Half in the WC 83 may not have been a bad bet! He would have just kicked with that metronome accuracy and bored us all to death. BUT the Bok ship would have steadied like a rock and they would have had their hands on the WC! Re your earlier request - Jimmy has given excellent overview but oddly does not talk about the two great centres of that Bok era. The incomparable Gerber and the unfortunate Willie du Plessis who could have gone on to greatness. Had coffee with Willie the other day(he now lives in Sydney) - terrifically modest as always.Brendan Venter was no slouch but never really gave his all to the game as he was more dedicated to gaining his medical degrees. He also had quite a temper and was famously red carded in one international for kicking some poor opponent. A combination of Gerber and O'Driscoll would be a match made in heaven.With Ella at Flyhalf and Joost as scrummie.O'Reilly and Mordt as the wings and JPR lurking at Fullback. Ah the fantasies of old men!
Shahsan
Guest
Well, Sheek, it's all conjecture anyway -- such as players not going to league, or not being labelled pro etc -- so maybe we should assume that apartheid was abolished too, so SA could play. I'm no Saffie but for reasons i stated previously, they would have been the most pragmatic and would have found a way to win, even if it meant winning ugly. They'd have played 10-man rugby (and they had some top-notch cattle upfront), but backed up by a backline at least the equal of any of the others. I suspect the romantics ie AB,s French and Wallabies, would have been perturbed by the rugby SA would play, thereby having the discussions we are having today.
Ziggy
Guest
Errol was the finest Bok Fly Half ever. That is quite a statement and one I will never back down from. But he only started to play for the Boks when he was past his best - over 30! Never lost a test. Was he better than Ella? We will never know because of the Apartheid era. Tobias was more predictable than Ella. Ella was my all time favourite Fly Half.
sheek
Guest
Thanks Ziggy, Both your comments & Jimmy's very illuminating. So Ella to set Du Plessis, Gerber, Mordt & du Plessis alight? You guys had your own 'dark' genius, his name was Errol Tobias.
sheek
Guest
Funmaster, It's a good thing Saffies don't write rugby history. We would otherwise hear nothing but the Boks this, Boks that..... You forget that the Boks would unlikely have competed in a RWC in 1983, unless they hosted it. And as good as they were, what they experienced in NZ in 1981, in terms of public disturbance, would haven nothing compared to what would happen in the UK, France & Ireland, with a greater concentration of people, especially West Indians, West Africans & Asian migrants. Finally, great backline that the Boks could have had in 1983, Botha was more a roadblock than a feeder. And extra finally, we all know sport isn't played on paper, but out on the field, where emotions & pressure can do funny things to a man, any man. Oh, & when you get to the quarters of a RWC, it becomes a knock-out. The opposition only needs to put one good game on you, & you're gone. Just ask the ABs!
Jerry
Guest
I'm a bit young to comment. That 83 series v the Lions is one of my first rugby memories (I remember the 81 Bok tour, but only from the riots etc surrounding it, I was too young to understand the matches).
sheek
Guest
True, but since Mourie had only retired the previous year so he could publish his book (thus making him a professional!) I extended his career. I guess Kiwis can tell me whether at 30 going on 31, Mourie would have kept Hobbs, aged 23, out of the side in 1983.
Shahsan
Guest
Yah, they were very strong, probably good enough to join the Five Nations (of course, they would never have let them join, aside from France). But they lost many players in the Ceaucescu upheaval (many of the players were in the police and armed forces) and the country went into turmoil and rugby there has never quite recovered.
sheek
Guest
Jimmy, Fantastic stuff. You helped clarify quite a few things. Interesting what you say about Tobias. It's a shame about the time he lived in.
Shahsan
Guest
The Tigers were around back then, of course. And probably even better than they are now. Wheeler, Dodge, Woodward, Hare, Winterbottom, etc, if i remember correctly. They might have beaten the Boks second-stringers too!
Jerry
Guest
Jock Hobbs was the openside in 83, yeah.