The science of throwing rugby forward passes

disagree, as the player knows that the ball will travel forward, hence his intentions are to throw it towards the dead ball line ...

Good point Short Blind. I agree with you that although the definition of a forward pass is essentially the same in both games, the application of the law seems to be different. RU refs (and I am one) would appear to be a bit lax on the forward pass law. But I have also noticed a difference with the application of the knock-on law. I often see things wrongly called a knock-on in RL. In my view RL refs are overzealous in applying the knock-on law. Balls that are knocked straight down (i.e. neither forwards nor backwards) or even slightly backwards are typically ruled as knock-ons in RL.

I understood what Davo meant as well :-) I wasn't trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult. I just wanted to point out that a definition of a forward pass in relation to the goal line doesn't allow for a forward pass in your opponents' in-goal area (which is a real possibility). And yes I too have heard RL commentators (Ray Warren?) defining the forward pass in relation to the opponents' goal line. I wonder if they've ever thought about the possibility of throwing a forward pass once you're already over your opponents' goal line? :-D

Guys I've also done referees' courses - well, actually a coaching course where there was a refereeing component - and I can assure you that this is also how the refs are taught, that is, all that matters is the direction the ball leaves the player's hands. And it's not that complicated either, or hard to see. You can usually tell when the pass elaves the hands in a forward direction.

aubgraham: what you have cited is the current wording of the RU law on a forward pass. You may be interested to know that the IRB now has an online interactive version of the laws at www.irblaws.com which should always be up to date. Clarificatory rulings of the RU forward pass law are not necessary if you understand terse, well-drafted legal English. If you consider the wording of the rugby union laws you will see that it defines the forward pass in relation to the player and not the ground. "Forward" modifies the VERB "to throw". So under this definition the relevant question is "Did the player THROW the ball in the direction of the opponents' dead ball line?" and NOT "after the player threw the ball did it TRAVEL in the direction of the opponents' dead ball line?". The test is the direction of the throw (i.e. relative to the player) and not the direction the ball travelled after it was thrown (i.e. relative to the ground).

making the rule relative to the players position doesn't work because what if a player is behind me and i throw the ball high and well forward for him to run on to, it would be ok so long as the player was on side just like a kick. Again i say that the actual rule is less important than the interpretation by the referee, consistancy would be nice but refs are people not robots

Cattledog raises a fair point. I think a better wording (and this is not my own idea but something I read elsewhere) and that is "A pass is not forward if it is moving to the dead ball line at a slower speed than the player who passed it at the time of the pass" It's funny how the concept of a forward pass relative to the ground is the easiest to explain and codify but not a functional rule for playing the modern game, whilst the concept of a forward pass relative to the player is essential for the modern game but difficult to codify.

Same in league, but I understand Davo. In RL the commentators always make this statement when a forward pass is ruled.

The thing missing in this discussion is how the interpretation differs so much between Union and League. In the NRL the tiniest hint of a forward pass is pulled up by all referees most of the timel. In Union at Test and especially at S14 level heaps of forward passes are let go by the refs and their mates the linesmen - even really obvious ones (Barnes NZ WC Semi etc). Yes it appears that recently (NH tour) their has been a bit of a crackdown by union refs in this area however I suspect this will go away when 'next weeks' brief by Paddy is given out. Given the similarity of the rule in each code I just dont get this or the reason union refs are more lax on this part of the game. Is it just me or is this last rum and milk going to my head?

What if he's level with the person passing the ball ie. the 'flat' pass?

A well written article on a subject that causes a great deal of confusion. aubgraham is right to point out the wording of the rule in rugby, which carries no additional amplification in the laws of the game, unlike in league. The key thing, though, is the wording: "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line." The rule refers to the direction in which the player throws the ball, not to the direction in which the ball travels. Therefore Davo has it right in his interpretation, but the confusion arises quite often because TV commentators don't know this law of the game very well, and they will call a pass forward when, technically, it may have travelled forward despite being thrown backwards relative to the players giving and taking the pass. I've seen a lot of passes like this pulled up as forward passes, and others, which are genuinely forward according to the laws of the game, are not spotted by the referee. I wonder whether there is some scope for a rule amendment in this case. Let's make the criterion for a forward pass dependent on the relative positions of the passer and the recipient of the ball. If the recipient is standing behind the passer at the time the ball is passed, let's make the pass legal, whether it travels forward or not. It would take some thinking through, but I think this law change could have a significant impact on the way rugby is played, and for the better, in my view.

Davo, what you say is correct and yep, what Sam said is 100% wrong. Problem is, Cooper threw a forward pass as detailed in the law book. Forward momentum, on this occasion, had nothing to do with it! Hard to believe as it might be, referees at that level are very aware of the laws of relativity.

OK, I'm confused. Rugby Union: From the http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/irb_law_book_2009_en.pdf （I believe these are the official rules but if someone has a different link I would love to see it). DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line. No mention of the pass relative to the player. Can anybody direct me to some official IRB document that explains otherwise. I would check out the video but I can't acces Youtube. Rugby League From http://www.rlef.eu.com/images/pdfs/rugby_laws_book2004.pdf (again, I'm not sure these are the official international rules of the game) SECTION 2 GLOSSARY FORWARD PASS is a throw towards the opponents’ dead ball line (see Section 10). SECTION 10 KNOCK-ON AND FORWARD PASS Notes Direction of Pass 1. The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass. So this is just a matter of poor English, since the glossary and the notes are inconsistent. But it seems clear enough that the pass is relative to the player. This would be ruled at the instant he releases and not when the receiver catches it I assume but that is not clear. This last point is important since when a fast running player is stopped dead in his tracks momentarily after passing a high floating ball he will often be behind the receiver when he catches it.

Anopinion, I'd imagine it'd be a penalty for offside if you just hand off, and in your first question by law it would either be a scrum (forward pass) or penalty (offside or deliberate forward pass), depending on what mood the ref's in on the day...

If I hold the ball out in front and flick it sideways or backwards to a player who is in front of me, what should the ruling be by law? If I do not release the ball but rather hand it off to a player in front of me is it a penalty against me?

Yes - it is strange - but also the poor option taking has been glossed over as well ... the miracle pass verses the sure thing … esp given Mitchell positioning to receive it was poor … if that try had been scored – then it’s a fair guess to say the floodgates would have opened … and Wallaby supporters – would be bemoaning the Irish result only

DAvo, more people should read this article. well explained.

Maybe put microchips in the brains of some players?

the key thing is that when the ball is released the pass is not directed forward, the actaul definition by law is not all that important, Referees take into account the relative motion of the player who threw the pass so thats what matters. All those people out htere who complain about these kind of things should get over it, same with the breakdown, its only illegal if the ref says it is, player like McCaw, george smith, schalk burger all push the laws until the ref steps in, the thing that makes them so good is that once they get penalised for skirting the rules they stop it. Yes it is cheating but thats how rugby is these days, the rules have changed so much every ref has their own interpretation of some of the more complex laws and the best players will take advantage. We saw the Italian scrum destroy the All Blacks a few weeks ago, on replaying the match it became quite clear the Italian prop was using every trick in the book, driving in, up and even binding with his arm around the the neck of one af the All Blacks front row, Nemiaa Tialata was eventually sent off because the All Black scrum was such a mess! After the match the IRB chief of referees Paddy O'Brian officially apoligised for the referees mistake in blaming the all black and not spotting the italians dirty tricks. The thing is the italian prop was only doing his job, doing everything he could to disrupt the All Black scrum, pushing the boundaries of what he could get away with, had the ref penalised him early im sure the srucm would have settled down but instead the ref missed everything and the Italian grew more bold as the match progressed, getting sidetracked here, point is until we have robots for refs that control each game identically then players will push the laws in search of any edge over the competition.

and Darwin, even Cooper's pass hasn't been seen as THE reason the Wallabies lost to Scotland...