What the B-League should look like

I agree 100% with Pave's comments, and I'm of Scots Irish background. The NSL had the passion. If anyone needs reminding of this check out a video on youtube of Melbourne Knights v South Melbourne, Decembber 1994. If Knights, Sydney United, Marconi , Sydney Olympic, etc. are good enough on the football field they should be able to be promoted to A-League. Pave is right about the diverse ethnicity of Knights players: Remember in 1990 Awaritefe up front and Alan Davidson in the midfield? The percentage of Croatian players in the team was far below 50%. So really people object to the ethnicity of the fans, that is racism. We have gone back to the days in the 1950s when ethnic clubs in NSW could not play in the state premier league (Johnny Warren mentions this in his book Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters). Roy Hay's work is fantastic, see also Garry Robson chapter in book Fear and Loathing in World Football. Re number of fans I think South Melbourne and Heidelberg have more fans than Gold coast United.

Say for example we lived in a perfect world and promotion and relegation existed in the Australian soccer pyramid. If say the Melbourne Knights, South Melbourne, Marconi or Sydney United won their respective league why should they be declined from entering the higher competition? Because of ethnicity? Pity these clubs pump money into their grounds and players and not into a racial vilification lawsuit to settle the question once and for all. Regardless, at the FIFA summit in Sydney the statute about promotion and relegation was stressed that ANY teams that are eligible for promotion to a higher league do so on sporting merits, and sporting merits alone. Not if they were previously called Melbourne Croatia, not if too many of their player surnames end in 'ic' and certainly not for financial reasons. If a club is good enough to play in the top flight, let them play there. The wogs, ethnics or whatever you want to call them brought this game to where it is today. We endured the David Hill era, and now we are enduring the post-NSL era. Do you think that the A-league would have come about had Australia made the World Cup in 1998? I highly doubt it. I'm as full blooded a Croat you would find, and Melbourne Knights is my club. Don't get me wrong the NSL had its problems. The lack of broad based support, corporate dollars and television exposure. The lack of broad based support was a tough question to tackle for many of the clubs. I understand both sides of the argument but you have to understand when you look through a membership book from 1984 with 1,500 member names in there that are ALL Croatian, you see that it's tough for a club to now go and sell these people out for 'new' fans which haven't poured their months wages in supporting the club through a tough time, or building a grandstand from scratch. Australia was built on the hard labour of the so-called General Assisted Package Scheme. It would seem Australian soccer was too, except the powers that be in the soccer world decided that these wogs didn't even deserve a pension for all their hard work, tossing them onto the scrapheap and basically saying fend for yourselves, while making life even more difficult with transfer strictures and the like. It's hard not to be bitter when you see what has become of your once great club and how it has been treated. I would bet my bottom dollar that had the NSL been marketed to the shithouse like the A-league has, clubs would have gotten more mainstream support and thus felt more comfortable in not having to play the loyalty card every week with their traditional supporter base trying to keep them coming to games. This would have been the more logical solution, but as it happens with football and politics (and I'm not talking about the ethnic rivalry type) sometimes things don't pan out as expected or as they should. And before someone goes off on a tangent about footballing violence which was/is fuelled by ethnicity I suggest you read a paper written by respected soccer historian Roy Hay who has done a in depth study on the systematic false reporting of soccer violence in Australia to serve the purpose of various forces - other sports, anti-Immigration groups etc. I eagerly await your heated and perspective-less replies.

Most australians are migrants. in one form or another. It could be themselves, or their grandparents. the majority of people living in australia came from another country.

Hi Roger Rational, your comments are interesting but let's analyse it further. Celtic and Rangers generate huge crowds, I think the SPL has the largest crowds per head of population in Europe. We might doubt or despise sectarianism but it is sectarian passion that contributres to what makes Old Firm games great - AND brings in the crowds. I doubt a non-sectarian Glasgow team called "Glasgow United" would attract people but I could be wrong. What would be left of the SPL without the Old Firm? You would be left with Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs and some minor clubs that can't draw 10,000 people., The Hearts firm is connected to the right-wing of politics so there is a sectarian aspect to Hearts versus Hibs anyway. And if you think sectarianism is the cause of violence in the SPL, it is well documented that the first Scottish hooligan firm was Aberdeen Soccer Casuals, associated with a non-ethnic club. Celtic Soccer Crew formed only in response to them,. There are implications for Australia. I'm not Croatian but I love the passion that Melbourne Knights generated and the A-League franchises can't replicate that. I support the Knights, Preston, South, Marconi etc for a B-League. Kieran.

bring it on, it might fall over but it probably worth a try. I still think a FFA competition similar to the FA cup to see what crowds do come along, every team in Australia plays a sudden death till 10 teams are whittle down to play the 10 A - league clubs, it will give a good idea what the expected crowds are to be. Also in the UK teams like Fulham only get 15,000 some times to a Premier league game. In the Championship alot of team only have 10,000 seat stadiums. So your suggestion isnt impossible, but its having the owner funding the teams is . I say throw the whole on the A-League open to anyone, if you are trying to exisit on a false supporter base it will never work. The fittest survive. It happens every where else, nobody will help Manchester United if they got relegated.

Clearly you have never lived in Glasgow mate. Celtic versus Rangers is what football is all about.

Probably better off mate, since most people in Scotland call the Old Firm "The Ugly Sisters" and reckon their bitter sectarian rivalry ruins it for everyone else.

Agree with you completely mate. Where would the Scottish Premier League be without an ethnic club for Scottish Catholics and Irish known proudly as Celtic FC? I plan to write an academic article on the topic of this thread- would appreciate hearing more of your views, kieran_james@yahoo.com

"Fiootball is meant to unite us/ Clubs based around race divide". Celtic versus Rangers anyone? Yes please and I support Celtic proudly.

I thought the NSL was fantastic and I am still a supporter of the league. South Melbourne v Melbourne Knights from 1994 video clip is on youtube, the passion on and off the pitch is unbelievable. And we gave that up for plastic franchises that lack any meaning at all. How can any sporting league excite people without traditional clubs? And if you don’t like so-called ethnic clubs what about the great Celtic Football Club in Scotland?

Thanks. Is it true Jedinak transferred to a Croatian club during the 2003-04 season? Or did he just trial there? How much did Sydney United get for Jedinak when he was 19-20?? The value of his development as a junior at Sydney United should be fairly represented by that amount I would think. He played for the Australian u20 team so surely they got some good $ for him. Are United claiming that they should be able to sell a player to a European club, have him come back, play him in the state league and trade him again to the next best offer they can get at the time, and then after the new club develops & trades him further up, cash in on the junior development work again? It's justified to cash in on the senior development work but not to double dip after already getting $ for the junior development work. If his development as a senior player came after that transfer at 3 clubs, then ideally the transfer from Sydney United to the Mariners would have had a sell-on clause. But United would have had little power in the negotiations at that time because they couldn't further the ambitions of the player from the State League. Mariners had him for more than half of the time since he came back to Australia and put him on the stage where he earned NT honours. A lump sum up front and a % of any further trade would be fair reward for development up to the time of transfer but it should be agreed up front. It is just that Mariners paid $64,000 over and above that amount. In principle this could be a prescribed law for all Australian transfers between state league clubs and HAL clubs. But if we did that there would be alot of instability from Bosmans and the smaller clubs dont have the financial clout to make it work signing players in case they make it big and pay off. if the remaining transfer cash from Jedinak is invested into the new Mariners Academy then the club who took the risk, has been rewarded and reinvested in further youth development. The game wins. But it still doesnt strongly support more development at United. It's unfortunate that United couldn't offer Jedinak the opportunities that the Mariners could. The financial prospects for the game itself in Australia need to be grown and expanded and then shared around. We need a bigger pie more often, not a bigger slice for United on this 1 occasion. In years to come, an ideal scenario would see at least an option for players to be trained in Australia by qualified coaches at low registration costs to their parents with staggered sell on clauses to reward to the development clubs retrospectively. The fractured development path of players in Australia is at the heart of the issue. If you could figure out how to administrate and audit it effectively and efficiently, maybe have development clubs (state league levels) nationwide apply to FFA (or a sub-body) for an "Elite Player Development Licence" and from that achieve subsidised player registrations and coaching/training resources. Dictate the implementation of the national curriculum, minimum coaching requirements & subsidised resources & training with a clear pathway to NYL and HAL level. Parents could choose whether to send their child to a more expensive non-licenced club or a licenced highly resourced club with a clear career pathway. Increase NYL/HAL links to the state league(eg. player/coach appearances at special training sessions, games between the clubs, NYL players to be contracted to the licenced clubs but loaned to the HAL clubs for NYL season with standard transfer agreement subject to negotiations, give members subsidised tickets to HAL/NYL games (reward going to many games - eg. attend 4, get 1 game free, finals tickets). At the end of season tournaments, all the NYL players go back to the senior squads of their original state league clubs or get promoted to the HAL squads. Now there's some emotion. So assuming United was licenced and playing in the "state league", a future Jedinak would be trained as a junior, graduate to a financially supported United club from 14-18, then from 18-22 play for the Rovers NYL team, knock back a transfer offer to Croatia for the opportunity to further develop in the local system, go back to United for an end of season comp and against "state league" teams and Rovers, earn a senior squad role at Rovers, transfer to Mariners HAL as a free agent, play end of season finals with Mariners, transfer to Turkey on a $1 million transfer and have money go back to fund the infrastructure. Is FFA trustworthy enough to implement such a system? Corruption would be a big potential problem.

30% sounds about right to me. That doesn't sound fair on the face of it but we (as in all aussie clubs together) only get big transfer fees if the player has a long term contract and it's the A league clubs taking the biggest risk their so we have to keep that incentive in place. While a Sydney United player if his career finished with an injury Sydney United wouldnt be out of pocket as he would have payed rego fees for much of his time their. Jedinak is the most obvious case when pushing for more compo because he had been at Sydney United for so long. Most other players have a more murky back story and it's really the junior club I want too see rewarded. for Jedi that was one and the same but for most players you spend approx 8 years with your junior club and if your good enough gravitate to the closest state league club. The state league clubs are a step in the pyramid.

etat, Yes you do make a good point. During World War 1 Australia did go well with possessions in the Pacific. But it took Australia only the first couple of months to defeat Britain’s enemies in the Pacific. There was no need for Australian’s to go to get themselves killed in Gallipoli, France and etc just to hold onto those newly conquered lands. Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey and etc had no capability at the time to threaten Australia’s territory or interests. Australian’s fought in those places because they felt they were British and wanted to show to the world that they were proud to be Brits. As for your comment on World War 2 go look at my comment about Australia’s involvement in World War 2. I said, “remember Australia’s involvement in WW2 did not start in the Pacific but in Europe”. That means I was not criticising Australia’s involvement in the Pacific theatre of World War 2 but her involvement in the European conflict. Australia’s territory was not threatened until 1941 when Japan began her expansion in the Pacific. However Australia was already involved in World War 2 for two years. Why? Because good old “Mother Britain’s/England’s” territory was under attack. Australians use to send their son’s off in droves to fight for their families Motherland. Which began from the time Australia was first colonised until World War 2. We’re talking about in some cases 4th or 5th generation Australians getting themselves killed because they had a great feeling of British patriotism. However the closes things ethnic people have done in Australia to show their patriotism to their homelands is just creating ethnic social/sports clubs. As for the A2/B League. I like Daniel’s idea. It would give the A2/B League club’s enough time to get rid of their negative image and also hopefully raise money in case they were to be promoted in ten or twenty years time to the A League. Also it would give A League clubs enough time to think of an emergency plan in case they get relegated in ten or twenty years time. I especially like the part where he says “the right to contest the end of season tournaments – half finals footy, half promo/relegation.” Maybe in ten or twenty year’s time when there is enough teams and money for a promotion/relegation system in Australia. The system should be the top quarter of the Hyundai A League team enters a championship finals series. Whilst the bottom quarter of the A League would enter a promotion/relegation final series with the top quarter of the A2/B League. Also just changing the subject slightly what do you people think about the state clubs getting not enough compensation for developing players? What do you think of the compensation system instituted by FFA - and supported by the players' union - which in many cases restricts them to receiving a maximum fee of $3000 for their best players? Look at Mile Jedinak. Sydney United took him into the club basically from the time he could walk. He spends a year at the Mariners and they end up getting an $800,000 transfer fee when he goes to Turkey [Genclerbirligi]. What did Sydney United get out of it? Including what Sydney United got out of the Mariners initially, they got $67,000 overall. How's that fair? My suggestion for the FFA is to enforce a type of compensation system onto the Hyundai A League clubs by making them give state clubs a certain percentage of the transfer money they receive to the state club who the player originally came from. For example Jedinak was at Sydney United since he was a very young boy. So Sydney United deserves at least 30 to 40 per cent of the $800 000 the Mariners received from Genclerbirligi.

That is a frighteningly intelligent suggestion.

actually in the head of state of australia she is the queen of australia and the rest of he commonwealth isnt she?

yeah I overlooked the malaya conflict

Malaya conflict maybe ?.

Yeah I realise about the Westminster Act being passed in the 1930 by the English and that they didn't see the need of legal separation until 1942 with the disagreement between Curtin and Churchill. My point is generally based similar to what Gibbo saying is that Australian maintaining loyalties to England is a little bit different to children of migrants having loyalties to their country of parents birth. One is helping a country that we are allied to and are legally attached to (even now) that is not always present for children of migrants. Fair point about the conflicts I overlooked although correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that australian joining Korean Wars was as much as furthering our relationship with USA as much as with UK.

Exactly.

The Westminster Act was passed in the 1930's by the British Parliament but not passed by the Australian Parliament until the 40's. In short, Australia at the time didn't see the need for the legal separation. We havent rushed to join wars with the UK. That is if you ignore the Malayan Emergency and Korea. THat is pretty much all they have been involved in apart from the Falklands during which Australia would have been incapable of any practical support.