Kiwi Hape in England's Six Nations squad

Ora, the simplicity of your arguement is charming. I admire your passion, if not your syntax, attention to detail or your crushing inability to articlate yourself. You seem to have no idea what anyone has said in previous posts. Instead, you have created a combined super human called 'The Northerner' which appears to be your number one nemesis. Ora: 'do you know something that we Kiwis don’t do you. Are you in liason with the NZRFU are you?' Classic Ora, the above statement evokes images of all the world's Kiwi's sitting around a camp fire. G Henry asks Ora how his day went, Ora replies that it went well, that his battle with the Northerner still rages despite numerous vitriolic attacks and that people still have difficulty unerstanding him. Ora then askes G Henry how his day was, G Henry replies that ' It went well, that he went to the shop, bought milk, brough his watch to get fixed, had a fleeting look at some of the tennis on tv and reiterated his decision not to pick Riki. He also disclosed his 'inner circle knowledge' that he, nor any of his AB predecessors, not and NZ coach he knew would ever have picked Riki Flutey. Never ever ever never'. And so folks, that was the special, warm, fuzzy and wonderful day that boy Ora learned that Riki's card had been marked and that no one in the AB set up past or present ever for even an iota of a second had ever considered picking Riki........ Ever. Ora: 'But that doesn’t fit your argument at all so you come in here with some ridiculous rant and sarcasm. You accuse me of saying the same thing I could say likewise for you'. I have no idea what this means. But if it is a Yoda impression, it is awesome.

Good summary and response, Rugby Fan. The fact - as opposed to other opinion or personal speculation - that Flutey is now selected for England, and therefore couldn't be selected by the ABs for 2011 seems to have sailed over Ora's head. Ditto Hape. Albeit Hape's ability has yet to be proven on a Test stage unlike Flutey.

Ora, You make two different points. First of all, you say Flutey wasn't good enough in NZ to get near the ABs squad. That seems reasonable, most here seem to agree. You then say that Flutey isn't good enough now to get in the squad. To back it up, you say that the All Black selectors would have made an approach to him to head back to New Zealand if he had been good enough. I think that's problematic. Flutey is one of over a dozen centres England have selected in recent years. He might have stepped up to the Test stage and, like others before him, failed to make an impact. The point is that he showed how good a Test player he could be only after he had committed to England by which point it was too late for the ABs to consider him. When thinking about whether to commit to England, Flutey would undoubtedly have weighed up his chances of being picked for NZ and decided England offered his best opportunity. You can't, however, say that he must have decided he had no chance. He would have realized that to play for NZ would have meant finding a team back home and proving himself all over again. As a professional rugby player, he was being offered a chance to play Test rugby immediately or start a new career path to win selection in NZ. He made his choice. We don't know if anyone in the All Blacks set-up did have an eye on Flutey. I doubt it because it is only recently that NZ have considered calling home some of those overseas players (which also obliges them to make concessions to the likes of Carter). They haven't really looked at anyone outside former ABs so it would only have been tentative contact at most. Consider, however, what Flutey could possibly have been offered anyway. At most, someone might have hinted he would have a chance at the squad if he could prove himself again in S14. Nick Evans had a spot in the ABs squad but it wasn't enough to keep him from leaving to pursue his rugby career elsewhere and I'm sure Flutey would have taken that under consideration. That's no disrespect to the ABs, it's a simple acknowledgement of how fickle the game can be and why a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. I'm sure the fact that Flutey has elected to play for England is enough reason for some AB fans to decide that he didn't have the right character to be an All Black anyway. I can understand that reaction and it's all part of what makes conversation between rugby fans a lively affair. On purely rugby grounds, though, if Flutey had played as well in NZ as he has in England and Lions shirts, I don't have any doubt myself that he would have been called up for a place in the All Black squad. The only question in my mind is whether he would have secured a regular spot. If he can't maintain his form at Test level then the answer to that will be an easy "no" but that will also be true for his England place.

Actually not a single person has been rude to you on this thread, Ora.

I sound "somewhat moderate and witty"? Why thank you, Ora. Never thought that I'd be getting compliments on the Roar. I should reply in kind by telling you what happens with the frog. It never moves or jumps. It just sits there and grows accustomed to the increasing heat until without knowing it, it is boiled alive. Try the story out on your 7 year old daughter and then ask her which she thinks you are - the frog or the pot of water. You might be quietly surprised at the answer. (My money is on the pot.) :)

Pothale instead of rewording what I have just said to you so that you sound somewhat moderate and witty, i'd just restrain yourself from hitting the reply button. What i have taken exceptionj to is your ridiculous rhetoric and sarcasm, you and your little band of friends hunt in packs it really is quite juvenile. Funny how only the Northern posters seem to think Hape and Flutey would make the ABs don't you think? So I'd actually think before you write your next attack Pothale because as of yet it is only you and your friends who have got personal and throwing around insults and sarcastic comments. So like I have said just above the post which you replied to and much further up the post to your pal Wavell if you don't like that I have an opinion then run along.!!!

I didn't accuse you of anything, Ora - would you ever calm down. I simply said that I didn't agree with some of your comments. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. This is an opinion site and people are going to have differing opinions. If you cannot accept that, then maybe you should think about this: Do you know the old story about what happens if you put a frog into a pot of water, and then slowly heat the water to boiling point?

So Pothale, Where's your proof that this isn't true then ? Come on blow us away with your evidence that Flutey would make the All blacks as too would Hape. Come on sunshine you think you know it all, do you know something that we Kiwis don't do you. Are you in liason with the NZRFU are you? Hmmm didn't think so As with what you accuse me of your postys are nothing but speculation and your opinion. This is an opinion site and people are going to have differing opinions. If you cannot accept that why don't you move along. Saveyour pathetic little sarcastic rhetoric and attacks, my 7 year old daughter has more maturity about her than you could ever possibly dream of having. Get a grip and grow up!!!

Ora I agree with your posts except for the following comments: "They were never on the radar for the ABs and it is highly unlikely either would make the AB team right now neithers form surpasses any of the talent that is already in the squad." "The problem here is Pajovic, the selectors do not see either of the two as All Blacks and they never did.....If they were the selectors would have made an effort to get them to come back." "So this simple fact you talk about is only possible because they Hape and Flutey are not now nor were they ever wanted by the AB selectors it really is that simple!" "However reality is they were never on the radar not now not ever." I don't agree with these statements since they are based on a unproven assumption by yourself. (Unless you're secretly a spokesman for the AB selectors and have been briefed by them....) :)

The problem here is Pajovic, the selectors do not see either of the two as All Blacks and they never did, and just to keep the carbon footprint down as you say. If they were the selectors would have made an effort to get them to come back. They are ineligible now yes but if they were up to it and not chasing the dollar you could absolutely guarantee they would have been lured home. So this simple fact you talk about is only possible because they Hape and Flutey are not now nor were they ever wanted by the AB selectors it really is that simple! But that doesn't fit your argument at all so you come in here with some ridiculous rant and sarcasm. You accuse me of saying the same thing I could say likewise for you. Also not sure how long it takes for information to process in your brain but you made a comment "Can someone post a story about the HC or something so that we can talk about something else???" Ah hello this is a thread about hape making the England team!!! Might pay to keep it on track don't you think ?????

"but as Tony Diprose explained at a supporter forum, once an academy player is 18 he can move to another club." "Both Care and Clegg fell into that cateogory and moved into the Quins academy/development system and mentored by a senior squad member." Slightly contradictory don't you think? A player can develop when they are 25. Flutey is a prime example.

Ora stated: 'That is simply untrue' How is this statement untrue?: 'They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011' It makes perfect sense. Just like BOD or Tom Croft are off their radar because they are not eligible, they are off the radar because they will not be eligible for selection for the AB's - simple really. It's a statement of fact, which accordingly cannot be said to be untrue. Ora, you are the most environmentally blogger I have ever come across. You seem to recycle the same point every time you get your crayons out. Can someone post a story about the HC or something so that we can talk about something else???

Ian I agree with you post except for one comment ". They are both off the AB radar because they are not returning to NZ, as Mauger and Hayman probably will do so for RWC 2011." That is simply untrue. They were never on the radar for the ABs and it is highly unlikely either would make the AB team right now neithers form surpasses any of the talent that is already in the squad. As I have stated a few times in this thread already, had the AB selectors thought they were even slightly capable of making the ABs and playing in 2011 they would be trying to lure them back. Flutey has Nonui, Macca and no doubt Mauger ahead of him not to mention promising youngster Robbie Fruean coming through the ranks. It is every boys dream to play for the ABs and if we are lead to believe what some posters in here are saying that Hape and Flutey aren't playing for money then you could guarantee they would both prefer to don the Black Jersey the most famous in world rugby. However reality is they were never on the radar not now not ever.

Stevenson - so he is, Ian. Right you are. Re: Northampton - Lawes failed a pre-match fitness test and I believe Brett Sharman is English qualified.

WW Interesting info, London Irish and Northampton would not meet the RFU benchmark of at least 14 players being England qualified. By the way Stevenson in the Quins squad is an Ulsterman.

Isitolo Maka - Toulouse (2000).

Northampton 34-0 Perpignan Foden (Eng.), Ashton (Eng.), Clarke (Eng.), Downey (Ireland), Reihana (NZ), Geraghty (Eng.), Dickson (Eng.); Tonga'uiha (Tonga), Hartley (Eng.), Mujati (SA), Fernandez Lobbe (Arg.), Kruger (SA), Dowson (Eng.), Best (Ireland), Wilson (Ireland) - 7 English players Sharman (SA), Waller (Eng.), Vickers (Eng.), Day (Eng.), Gray (Sco.), Dickens (Eng.), Myler (Eng.), Mayor (Eng.) - 6 English players -- Gloucester 23-8 Biarritz Morgan (Eng.), Simpson-Daniel (Eng.), Molenaar (Eng.), Fuimaono-Sapolu (Sam.), Vainikolo (Eng.), Robinson (Wales), Lawson, R. (Sco.); Dickinson (Sco.), Lawson, S. (Sco.), Somerville (NZ), Attwood (Eng.), Brown (Eng.), Strokosch (Sco.), Hazell (Eng.), Delve (Wales) - 7 English players Dawidiuk (Eng.), Wood (Eng.), Capdevielle (France), Eustace (Eng.), Narraway (Eng.), Lewis (Eng.), Burns (Eng.), Voyce (Eng.) - 7 English players --Leicester 47-8 Viadana Hamilton (NZ), Tuilagi, A. (Sam.), Hipkiss (Eng.), Vesty (Eng.), Tuqiri (Australia), Flood (Eng.), Youngs (Eng.); Ayerza (Arg.), Chuter (Eng.), Cole (Eng.), Deacon, L. (Eng.), Parling (Eng.), Croft (Eng.), Woods (Eng.), Crane (Eng.) - 11 English players Davies (Wales), Stankovich (Eng.), White (Eng.), Newby (NZ), Moody (Eng.), Grindal (Eng.), Mauger, A. (NZ), Murphy, J. (Ireland) - 4 English players -- Stade Francais 15-13 Bath Maddock (NZ), Stephenson (Eng.), Carraro (Aus.), Hape (Eng.), Banahan (Eng.), Little (Fiji), Claassens (SA); Flatman (Eng.), Mears (Eng.), Wilson (Eng.), Short (Eng.), Grewcock (Eng.), Beattie (Eng.), Salvi (Aus.), Watson (SA) - 9 English players Dixon (SA), Barnes (Eng.), Jarvis (Eng.), Hooper (Eng.), Skriving (Eng.), Bemand (Eng.), Davis (Eng.), Cuthbert (Eng.) - 7 English players -- Blues 36-19 Sale MacLeod (Wales), Cueto (Eng.), Tait (Eng.), Thomas (Wales), Cohen (Eng.), Hodgson (Eng.), Peel (Wales); Lewis-Roberts (Wales), Briggs (Eng.), Halsall (Eng.), Schofield (Eng.), Gaskell (Eng.), Fearns (Eng.), Seymour (Eng.), Koyamaibole (Fiji) - 10 English players Jones, M. (Wales), Kerr (Scotland), O'Donnell (Eng.), Jones, C. (Eng.), Abraham (Eng.), Wigglesworth (Eng.), Kennedy (Eng.), Doherty (Eng.) - 6 English players -- Toulouse 33-21 Harlequins Brown (Eng.), Strettle (Eng.), Tiesi (Arg.), Mordt (Eng.), Evans (NZ), Care (Eng.); Jones (Wales), Fuga (Samoa), Andress (Ireland), Percival (Eng.), Robson (Eng.), Guest (Eng.), Skinner (Eng.), Easter (Eng.) - 9 English players Brooker (Eng.), Croall (Eng.), Johnston (Sam.), Stevenson (Eng.), Robshaw (Eng.), Dickson (Eng.), Clegg (Eng.), Williams (Eng.) - 7 English players -- Scarlets 33-21 London Irish Armitage, D. (Eng.), Hewat (Aus.), Seveali'i (Sam.), Mapasua (Sam.), Homer (Eng.), Lamb (Eng.), Hodgson (Eng.); Dermody (NZ), Paice (Eng.), Rautenbach (SA), Kennedy (Eng.), Casey (Ireland), Thorpe (Eng.), Armitage, S. (Eng.), Hala'Ufia (Tonga) - 8 English players Coetzee (SA), Murphy (Eng.), Ion (Romania), Roche (Eng.), Johnson (Eng.), Rudd (Eng.), Richards (Eng.), Malone (Aus.) - 5 English players --

Colin N It certainly true that they did not come through the Quins academy from 12/13, but as Tony Diprose explained at a supporter forum, once an academy player is 18 he can move to another club. Both Care and Clegg fell into that cateogory and moved into the Quins academy/development system and mentored by a senior squad member. In the case of Care, Andy Gomersall was his mentor, ironic now that he has moved to Leeds. On the other hand Quins decided to not award a further academy contract to Billy Twelvetrees when he was 18, nickname 36 (think Irish) and he moved to Leicester and as part of his development/academy programme they loaned him to Bedford.

But neither came through the Quins academy which is what I assume you are trying to show. It's like Chelsea saying they should take the credit for Daniel Sturrigde's development, despite the fact they've signed him as a teenager. The same could be said of Dan Gosling at Everton. In terms of rugby the same could be said of Doherty at Sale. The fact is, they have never been part of Quins' academy.

WW Tosh had an excellent season last year as a foil to Turner Hall, but this season has struggled to get game time as Tiesi has been playing very well. He is a good squad member but he coming under pressure from George Lowe, who at 20 is considered to be part of the future of Quins. I suspect that when Conor O'Shea arrives as DOR, he will reassess the squad and the future of Tosh may be questionable, particularly as there is another young back, Ross Chisholm, who was England schools 400M champion pressing for a place in the centre in the next year or so.