Reliving the 1986 IRB centenary celebrations

In 1980, an England-Wales XV played a Scotland-Ireland XV. Is it possible to have the teams for that game, plus result & scorers? Bruce Sheekey, Australia The match was played on 29th November, 1980, as part of the Welsh Rugby Union's centenary season celebrations. It was the ninth (and last) Four-Nations match, the English & Welsh beating the Scottish & Irish 37-33. England & Wales: J P R Williams; J Carleton, C R Woodward, S P Fenwick (capt), M A C Slemen; W G Davies, T D Holmes; C Williams, P J Wheeler, G Price, W B Beaumont, M J Colclough, M Rafter, G P Williams, D L Quinnell Scorers Tries: Carleton (2), G P Williams (2), Woodward, Beaumont, Davies Conversions: Davies (3) Drop-goal: Woodward Scotland & Ireland: A R Irvine (capt); D I Johnston, J M Renwick, D G Irwin, B H Hay; A J P Ward, J C Robbie; P A Orr, C T Deans, M P Fitzpatrick, A J Tomes, D E Spring, J F Slattery, J R Beattie, J B O'Driscoll Replacement: K W Robertson for Irvine (75 mins) Scorers Tries: Irwin, Johnston, Beattie, Irvine, Ward Conversions: Ward (4), Irvine Penalty Goal: Ward

Windup artist or what, Sheek.:) In point of fact, the most successful Lions test team ever, the 1974 team to South Africa, only had two Englishmen in its first choice test side, namely Fran Cotton at prop and Roger Uttley in the back row. Chris Ralston won a cap in the fourth test at lock, but only because Gordon Brown of Scotland was injured. "Ciaran Fitzgerald had been captain of the ill-fated 83 Lions. Even then, many people believed Colin Deans to be a better hooker." Now that really is mentioning the war! Many would argue that Ciaran Fitzgerald was not even the best hooker in Ireland at the time. Rivals such as Pa Whelan, John Cantrell or Harry Harbison were probably better players. However, Fitzgerald was the better captain by a street. When he was brought back and given the captaincy in 1982, the team went from zeros to heros in double quick time. A record run of test defeats (at the time) was overturned to such effect that Ireland were Triple Crown and Championship winners in 1982 and shared the title in 1983. When he was dropped after the Lions tour, the team was whitewashed in 1984 but then, a further recall, and the introduction of some exciting new players, and Ireland won another Triple Crown and Championship win in 1985. The decider of that year's series, at home to England, saw one of the iconic TV moments in Irish sport. With the scores tied and time running out the camera zoomed in on Fitzgerald's hot and angry little face as he marched up to his pack and demanded of them "Where's your fucking PRIDE??" You didn't have to be an expert lip reader. :) It worked too. A spirited forward drive off a lineout, quick rucked ball (remember that concept? how are all those rule changes working out for us?) and a last minute dropped goal. For the Lions tour in 83, he was the only real choice as captain. Ireland were the pre-eminent team of the four countries, and the captains of the other three teams were no great shakes. Eddie Butler (now a commentator) was Welsh captain that year, Roy Laidlaw was captain of Scotland and John Scott was English captain. A vicious press campaign, largely led by the acerbic John Reason (the Stephen Jones of his day, only he was English) started before the team was even announced to try to denigrate Fitzgerald's achievements. Its focus was that Peter Wheeler, the English hooker, should be Lions captain. Which rather begs the question, why wasn't he captain of England at the time? When Fitzgerald was inevitably made captain, the pressure only intensified and he became the scapegoat for the entire failure of the enterprise. But then, every Lions team bar one had failed in New Zealand in the 20th century. He had the last laugh in 1985.

It would've been a lot better if there was a 3-game series to mark the IRB centenary celebrations in 1986-Game 1 at Cardiff, Game 2 at Twickenham, Game 3 at Murrayfield, between the British & Irish Lions and the World XV rather than a 2 match series. What a series that would've been!! After all, didn't the All Blacks have a 3 game series agains the World XV in 1992 to mark the NZRFU's centenary?

Yeah Frank - 1st match at Cardiff, 2nd match at Twickers.

* fine science*

Can I confirm that the second centenary match was played at Twickenham? If so it might have been the game where du Plessis scored a tremendous solo try. I don't want to portray the '86 Boks as anything but terrific, but they had been overhyped to me before I saw the '86 Cavaliers Tests.I had been led to believe they gave New Zealand an absolute trouncing, when in fact it was actually quite a close series. New Zealand absolutely choked in the first Test. They hit the lead with a few minutes to go (after going for a pushover try IIRC), but then they switched off and Nass Botha put a kick into a corner which du Plessis touched down on. The second Test was a bad one for Nass Botha. The conditions were incredibly windy and that screwed with his goal kicking, and South Africa were a very pack orientated side (despite having the backline they did). Botha had a kick charged down from Warwick Taylor that led to a try. Botha did have kicking down to a fine silence, and I was impressed when he nearly kicked a 45m penalty that hit the post by emplying his 3 iron. He had a wonderful way of kicking the ball and and hard to avoid the wind. Anyway New Zealand won that Test, and in fact Botha went for a drop-goal in the last few monutes that hit the post. So it wasn't his day and the conditions did hurt South Africa. In South AFrica's defence, they were denied a try when Gerber was deemed to have knocked on a ball (which he clearly didn't). But for that decision there was a certain try on. But yeah they were close Tests and it was a close series. 3-1 was a good reflection of the sides though. The stand-outs to me were Schmidt (who scored a freakish try for a hooker), Gerber, du Plessis, and even Botha. My primary concern with Botha is he put the onus on himself to win the games too often. Sam's story about how he only spread the ball wide when the game was lost in 1981 made sense to me. That's a big reason why I New Zealand won the 2nd Test if you ask me - that and Flippe van de Merwe giving away three easily kickable penalties. Also, that wasn't the best New Zealand side I have seen. They had a few players who were past their best. Although it's interesting how that was Murray Mexted's last series - I though he did well. But yeah they had a few players over the hill, but it was still a close series. du Plessis looked impressive. His running style reminded me of Brendan Moon, and he was very balanced. I'd heard from a South Africa (of all people!) that Danie Gerber was a little susceptible in defence, but I've seen a bit of Gerber and I've sene no proof of that. Horan did so an excellent job against him in 1992, but Horan was pretty special himself.

Brett, I remember the ANZAC game.......see my comment above!

I remember that game and was so impressed I even bought a gurnsey......it's a pity ANZAC games didn't become regular fixtures against the Lions etc......but the concept was killed off by the lack of NZ support....a real pity. I think someone else suggested a regular SANZAR game against the 6 Nations.....what a way to end the rugby year that would be!

The Boks side of 1986 was one of the very finest in their history. Unfortunately for rugby fans the world over, we saw very little of them. That team is worth revisiting. At scrumhalf, & both props, the tests were split 2 each. The team was, starting at fullback: Johan Heunis, Jaco Reinach, Danie Gerber, Michael du Plessis, Carel du Plessis, Naas Botha(c), Anton Ferreira/Garth Wright, Jannie Breedt(vc), Gert Smal, Wahl Bartmann, Louis Moolman, Shalk Burger snr, Flip van der Merwe/Piet Kruger, Uli Schmidt, Anton Barnard/Frans Erasmus. Interestingly, had the 1985 series gone ahead before it was cancelled by "people power", it might have provided one of the finest test series in history. Frighteningly, the Boks of 85 could have been even stronger. Winger Ray Mordt & flanker Rob Louw defected to league when the ABs tour was cancelled. The other flanker & likely captain Theuns Stofberg, & scrumhalf & likely vice-captain Divan Serfontein both retired. Put those 4 players into the XV, & it would have been truly awesome.

Thanks Sam, There's nothing like strong "conviction" to clear up the pecking order of players from different eras..... Considering gerber could play both centre positions equally well, how does this backline sound? Gareth Edwards feeds the ball from the scrum to Mark Ella, who doubles around Danie Gerber, before a cutout pass past Phillippe Sella to David Campese. When tackled, Campo flick passes back inside to fullback Serge Blanco cutting into the centres, who finally passes to Carel du Plessis, coming off his left wing to plant the ball down between the posts!!! Of course, every great team requires a backup team. So let's go with C.Cullen, J.Kirwan, B.O'Driscoll, T.Horan, J.Wilson, H.Porta & D.Loveridge for the backups! And the best Lions team in the past 40 years? Well, I'm going to cheat a bit because I want all 4 countries represented. So gavin hastings pips JPR Williams at fullback. Here's the Lions backline: G.Hastings(S), G.Davies(W), B.O'Driscoll(I), M.Gibson(I), D.Duckham(E), (10-A.Welshman!), & G.Edwards(W). For flyhalf, can't decide who out of Barry John, Phil Bennett or Jonathon Davies is the man. Of course, Davies never represented an official Lions team. On three different days I might select them each in turn!!!

Trying to be just a little provocative, Sheek? ;)

Nah mate he was that good. I watched him play for the 1981 Springboks on their tour to NZ and it wasn't until late in the first test in Christchurch when the game was already lost that Naas Botha decided to move the ball wide and all of a sudden he was finding gaps and space where previously our defence was coping. Together with Ray Mordt he really stretched and busted through our defensive line in the third test. When England toured SA in 1984, Gerber put on one of the most devastating and dominant displays of power running rugby that I've ever seen from a midfield back, and this was at a time when Phillippe Sella was widely recognised as the world's premier centre. He had everything, size, speed, aggressive defence and a wicked sidestep. Against the 1986 Cavaliers he made Vic Simpson look like a lost schoolboy and with Carel du Plessis and Jaco Reinach on the other wing we couldn't match them for sheer speed. Gerber is one of my all time favourite rugby players.

Pots, I wonder if WW is upset there aren't enough Englishmen in that 1986 Lions team? They were crap back then anyway.......... !!!!!

Timmypig, I remember that 1992 test you refer to. Yes, Horan stood him up a few times, memorably dispossessing Gerber of the ball to feed Campo for his 50th test. But Gerber was 34, repeat 34, while Horan was only 22. The only other time I watched Gerber play, was on video of the 4 x Boks-NZ Cavaliers matches of 1986. The scores in these 4 tests were: 21-15, 18-19, 33-18 & 24-10. So the Boks gave the Cavaliers a royal 3-1 thrashing. However, the ABs players in the Cavaliers side, while awesome in their day, were mostly at the end of their careers. Gerber was brilliant in this series, fast, strong & powerful on the attack. But he was a weak defender, although I don't specifically recall this. He was voted some years ago as the greatest Bok of all time, so I guess that's pretty decent praise indeed!!! This was also the only time I saw Carel du Plessis on video. He was beautifully balanced, & fast for a big man (tall & well built). I recently asked a Saffie acquaintance (whose rugby knowledge preceeds mine by at least 10 years) to give me a comparison of du Plessis & Bryan Habana. He said it was no contest in du Plessis' favour. Not only was du Plessis faster (no doubt in his mind about this), but also a smarter tactically & better technically, winger. Du Plessis also made the alltime Boks side on the left wing.

Sheek I concede that Gerber was at the end of his career in 1992, but Horan made him look like a fool in the test at Capetown (Campo's 50th test try). I've only seen highlights of his earlier exploits - was he that good, or is there a bit of Jappie mythology going on?

Wavell Wakefield, The afore-mentioned Clem Thomas wrote a book - 'The History Of The British & Irish Lions', first published in 1996 just prior to Clem's death, & then continued by his son Greg. My edition was published in 2001 after the Lions tour to Australia that year. Between the 1983 & 89 tours, Thomas has this to say on page 201 (paperback edition): "In April 1986, the Four Home Unions, beset by the world lobby against apartheid, broke the Lions tour schedule by calling off their projected tour to South Africa, but a Lions team was selected to help celebrate the centenary of the International board, the principle governing body. It was only the second time for a Lions team to appear on British soil, and a squad of 21 players was assembled to play a team drawn from the rest of the International Board countries, at Cardiff Arms Park, under the management of Clive Rowlands and coached by Mick Doyle". Thomas then names the squad of 21 & the result, before continuing on page 202: "This was the only time that blazers and ties were issued to the players, and they were considered official British Lions". Therefore, applying practical, logical commonsense, it's only fair to say that the Lions team selected in 1986 was the very best available based on current form & availability (no injuries) from the recent 5 Nations tournament. Also keep in mind, following the disaster of 1983, the selection committee would have drawn a line through the name of some players - rightly or wrongly - from that tour to NZ. They would have been keen for a fresh & new start.....

Sam, We will never really know how good Gerber & du Plessis were. By all accounts, they were absolute top-drawer. If I were picking the best XV from the time I've watched rugby - circa 1969 to present, I think I would have Campese & du Plessis in my top team, followed by Kirwan & Jeff Wilson. Difficult to place Lomu. He was truly awesome, but only for a short time. My best Lions wingers would be Gerald Davies & Duckham followed by Robinson & Underwood. My best centre pairing would be Sella & Horan/Gibson, followed by Gerber & Gibson/Horan, with O'Driscoll & Maso on the 3rd line. My best Lions centres would be O'Driscoll & Gibson followed by Guscott(out) & either Gibbs or Townsend(in). Fair to say both Gerber & Guscott could play either centre position equally well, allowing for some flexibility in selections. Then there was the mercurial Frenchman Jo Maso, who was treated poorly by his national selectors, despite his prodigious gifts.

Thanks for posting the team lists Sheek, reading through those names brings back many memories. I remember the doom and gloom press reports in the English newspapers about the widening North-South divide following the Five Nations vs Rest match. If the 1970's is remembered and regarded as a golden era for British rugby the 1980's saw them fall and Australian and French rugby rise. I wish I still have copies of those games, repeated viewings and age eventually saw the ribbon wear thin on my VHS tapes and break. It was such a thrill to watch Danie Gerber and Carel du Plessis play together with their peers.

Brett, The ANZAC-Lions match took place in 1989. Sadly, it turned out to be a bit of a fizzer. Originally 6 ABs were invited, including skipper Buck Shelford. But the NZRU were strangely worried about the upcoming Wallabies match, & didn't want their guys getting too close to ours. As if! In 1989, the Wallabies weren't even close to the ABs in ability. In the end only 3 ABs - Steve McDowell, Frano Botica & Kieran Crowley - appeared. McDowell being the only current first-team regular.

Pothale, Ciaran Fitzgerald had been captain of the ill-fated 83 Lions. Even then, many people believed Colin Deans to be a better hooker. Phil Orr was over 35, & probably past his best. The other possible candidate is Hugo O'Neill, who might have challenged paul Thorburn for the number 2 fullback position. As you say, Paul Dean replaced Tony Ward at no.10 during 1986. Over at Wales, they hadn't yet decided Jonathon Davies was a better no.10 than Malcolm Dacey.