The curious case of Rebels fullback Danny Cipriani

Spiro, As a Melburnian and an avid rugby fan I am hoping that neither of the purported solutions eventuate in this case. There are better options available than either moving Mortlock out of his best position or playing for Barnes who is demonstrating certain limitations in his performances for the Waratahs. Talk of a 'poisoned chalice' is nonsense. Good players thrive whereever they play. Also, Barnes has not proven to be the most loyal of individuals in Australian rugby thusfar, which is contrary to the stated ideals of the new franchise. From my position, the best available option would be for MacQueen to take a punt on the young and thusfar impressive Toomua from the Brumbies. In Toomua we have a precocious young talent who has demonstrated that he is capable of managing a game from the 5/8 position from his gametime for the Brumbies last season (and off the bench this season). Further, he has recently been placed back in the pecking order behind Giteau and it seems unlikely that he will unseat Giteau as the preferred starting 5/8 for the Brumbies. This circumstance offers the Rebels a fantastic opportunity to acquire and mould a player who could be a legitimate long term star for Australian Rugby. Further, it offers a player who is playing for the 'right' reasons, which MacQueen has banged on about quite a bit recently. Even further, it provides them with a player who could quite concievably they could build an entire team around, who may very well respect the opportunity that they have provided him with loyalty as he ascends to more lofty responsibilities.

'That makes me wary of thinking he is the weak link in any England running game so I take your point about the effectiveness of the backs.' During the Italy game I thought that Wilkinson threw out some snappy flat passes BUT as we have seen under Ashton as the game tightened he played deeper and deeper (without a big centre like Tindall to help the team forward). Half of me thinks that Wilkinson deserves time because the Italy test was the first time that 9-10-12-13 unit had played together, but equally half of me thinks that he is not a natural attacking 10, and that the only reason we saw the play we did from him during Woodward's golden period was because there was a very big gap between England and the other home nations and also because the English backline contained some of the best English players ever. If England want a threatening backline then surely Flood is that man. A decade ago there weren't attacking 10s the calibre of Hook, Trinh-Duc, Carter, Giteau or even Ruaridh Jackson. Times have changed and Wilkinson hasn't. Further, the main issue, IMO, is of his game management: an issues that is surely more pressing than his attacking game. Wilkinson seems unable to control a game or alter the team tactics. when the pressure is on.

I agree with you completely. Brian Moore pointed out in his piece that Wasps have had as much trouble with the man as England and McGeechan didn't take a punt on Cipriani for the Lions so his "handle-with-care" image is not new. To be honest, though, England supporters had become used to the idea of Wilkinson not being available so the question was always " Who is next?". Supporters were happy to back Cipriani or Geraghty because Flood, oddly, failed to convince even the likes of McGeechan that he was the real thing. Without Wilko, Cipriani seemed to be the best of the playmakers. When Wilko came back into contention it was more important that Cipriani could prove himself as a good squad player first and that's the challenge Johnson set him. I can't say for certain that he failed that challenge but there are obviously those who think so. Wilkinson was at number 10 during England's purple patch in 2001, before foot-and-mouth postponed the Ireland clash, and that was some of the best back line play I've seen any England team produce. That makes me wary of thinking he is the weak link in any England running game so I take your point about the effectiveness of the backs.

I think he is reffering to positions 10 & 12, It seems in the modern era that 10,12, and 13 are being classed as centres when in fact in New Zealand it was only Centre not Centres!

'However, it’ll be more difficult for him if England do string together some decent performances.' I'm not really a fan of the debate, RF, but the odd thing is how it is only Johnson under the microscope: the role of McGeechan, Edwards, Mallinder or Hanks hasn't been examined in depth. What is also ignored is that Johnson chose Cipriani for his first four tests as coach. If we examine the backlines then and now then they are basically the same, with Cueto taking Sackey's place. Effectively Johnson has developed an entirely new backline. Thus initially Johnson had chosen Cipriani to spearhead this backline, and therefore lead England forward. This is conveniently forgotten.

He did - played his first grade footy at 15 with Gordon, Joel Wilson who switched to Rugby League was at outside centre and Julian Huxley was at 5/8, all in the same team.

I don't think the reaction has been polarized although I expect to see sympathy for Cipriani ebb as those allegations about his behaviour at the Saxons make the rounds. Brian Moore would agree with you, however, but I got the impression he raised the two extremes just to make his own argument which is actually the one I've heard most from rugby fans: "In sporting terms the Cipriani case demonstrates most facets of an increasing inability to take anything approaching a balanced view about populist topics, which is one of the less attractive and least helpful developments in the British psyche. His self-imposed exile has led to polarised reactions from the rugby world. These range from claims that Cipriani has been run out of town as a result of unsympathetic management at club and international level, to personal criticism of the player as a mere playboy without wit or character; oh and by the way, he has always been overrated. The truth is that there is fault all round and its roots were sown a long time ago..." Critics of Johnson's performance are using Cipriani as a stick to beat him while his supporters are pointing the finger at the player. I suspect the majority of ordinary fans feel that England are not where we should be in the rugby world but haven't given up on Johnson yet. In that light, most are unwilling to take sides and just hope that Cipriani goes on to show the kind of rugby which put him in the frame for selection in the first place. He didn't cement his place in the team after that Ireland performance, not least because having his kicks charged down affected his confidence in later internationals. The injuries were major setbacks and anyone who has seen him play will tell you that he isn't yet back to his best although signs of the raw talent are still there. I've no doubt that if he plays well, and England don't, then he'll feature in the future. However, it'll be more difficult for him if England do string together some decent performances.

Five-eighths is correct. Check it out = 5/8. Lol. However the Kiwis have two 5/8. The Oz has none, and the Home Unions have never had anyone who could run and pass, except some Russian prince in 1928.

Woof Woof - Who is Sterling Mortlock? Any relation to Derek Barnes?

VC, I'm taken aback that you read The Daily Mail. Say it ain't so?!

I've read quite a few of the articles published in the UK on the whole thing, and they generally fit nicely into one of two extreme categories: either Cipriani is a rugby genius who has had his confidence destroyed by a heavy handed inexperienced manager (Johnson), or he is an arrogant over-rated player with no national pride or loyalty. Everything printed about him over there needs to be taken with a grain of salt, too few articles seem to give more than one perspective on the whole saga. I wouldn't be surprised if we never really know exactly what has gone on. Rod Macqueen is pretty smart though, so I'll wait and see before judging Cipriani.

The latest Cipriani gossip is that he burned his last bridge with the England management two weeks ago on England Saxons duty in Italy by: a) Cheering on Wales when the Saxons players gathered in the hotel to watch the match on television; b) Made rude comments about Martin Johnson whenever his face flashed up on the screen; c Refused to practise drop goal drills when instructed to by the coach and then stormed off the training pitch The Daily Mail has the story. It's all most amusing. Good luck to Rod Macqueen - he'll need it.

why buy one of the world best 13's (still i reckon, especially against provincial defences) and then play him in a completely different and new (to him) position? pretty zany stuff. larkham was a much younger player and he couldnt get into the team because matt burke was in at fullback. they were desperate to get him and burke on the field, we didnt have any decent 5/8's at the time, seemed like a good fit. especially as fullbacks have reasonable kicking games so seemed fairly risk free. if ur starting a team from scratch i dont think you'd start with pulling in a 13 to play 5/8. and spiro, with the five eighth(s) dilemma when you use the term in normal speech its plural (i'd like to eat five eighths of that pie) ie 5 times a single eighth however in rugby its a singular person/player and has become a noun of sorts, a five eighth. again its not a literal 5 x 1 eighth. what if there were two number 10's, what would you call them? i can see why your grammar techer thought to correct you but you can't apply traditional grammar to positions on a field which are essentially new words. do you put a space when you write full back? or break away?

Steve maybe Cipriani goes missing in a match because he falls asleep with the boredom of winter in England. Let alone playing union in the premiership it bored Tuquiri in half a season even the money couldn't get him excited.

How about some Victorian players for discussion? Players who have played age grade rugby for Victoria Digby Ioane (Reds) Christian lealiifano (Brumbies) Talalei Gray (aus 7's) John Ulugia (brumbies) Ben Tapuai (Reds) Ole Avei (Waikato) Tetea Faulkner (aus schools, 19's and 20's, tuggeranong) M. Uoka(schools) Barry Famsili (aus schools, Eastwood) Angus Hamilton (schools) Rodney Esekia (schools) Nathan Palia (schools) Jack Deguigand (schools) Theres been a few other Aus schools players who I can't find as well. Alot of Australian schools players in the last 7 years.

There is of course another way to look at this story - Rebels are leaving their options open at fly half. No point negotiateing for a fly half if you've already announced you've filled the spot!

haha - been smokin the reefa again Spiro??

Ah you Aussies make me laugh with your near incomprehensible banter about English.... As a lifelong Wasps fan whom has seen Cipriani play from a real youngster I'm not sure how he'll fit into the pace of Super 14, as someone who struggles under the high ball and can be suspect tackling. I agree full-back is a better position for him that fly-half (we will have to agree to disagree over the name of the position), and just hope you can sort out the boys' temperament and concentration as he can go walkies in a match. Perhaps he's a natural born inside-centre at heart...?! Controversial for a Wasps fan but I think on balance Abendanon would have been a better signing if you could have got him...

Ora I'm curious like the others, what did NZ call the player wearing 13? As long as I can remember it was called centre. The first centre I remember watching was Bruce Robertson in the early 70's. I've read many biographies of former All Blacks and even Fred Allen in his bio called JB Smith the prince of NZ centres.

Goes back further than Super 12. I remember hearing John Gallagher and Joe Stanley referred to as Centres in the mid-80's (Gallagher played there for Wellington in his first season).