Is Ireland a team in serious decline?

How many tests did he play last season, van der Merwe?

Botha was accused of boring in (supposedly a common "trick" used by SA tightheads) by the Australians in 2007. Natal's scrum was dominant when he was playing for them, but I can't recall him previously imposing himself to the degree he did last year at Test level. In all likelihood, his improvement is simply due to the NH's greater emphasis on technique. Van der Linder and Steenkamp are undoubtedly cheats, though. The former has a tendency to collapse or bore in if he can't get his way. The latter's main issues have to do with binding - I'm constantly amazed with how often he's allowed to stand upright in the scrum - again this comes from the inability to get one over his opposition. Although, in saying that, since Gary Botha's return, Steenkamp's scrummaging seems to have improved quite a bit.

(blush)

"...I haven't had an orthodox career, and I've wanted more than anything to have your respect. The first time I didn't feel it, but this time I feel it, and I can't deny the fact that you like me, right now, you like me!" Something like that?

Stop it, pothale. You'll make me go all Sally Field...

Well, I distinctly remember O'Connell claiming - after very poor performances versus Italy and Scotland in the WC warm-ups - that the team had become obsessed with offloading and playing expansively and had perhaps lost sight of the basics. To some extent, I think that's just his position speaking. Johnson used to come out with very similar stuff. The World Cup itself was largely a problem of conditioning. Eddie O'Sullivan made a terrible hash of the fitness regime and the Irish got knocked around in the collision even by the Georgians and Namibians. But they also made incredible numbers of handling errors, perhaps from trying to force things too much. (Shades of Paris and Scotland this season). Croke '07 was remarkable, you're right, but I put it down as one of those mystical days that was somehow written in the stars.

Colin - I think that particular game had a peculiar mix of ceremony, significance and uniqueness that marked it out from others in the decade. It was a once-off. It was just one of those days where Ireland were simply not going to lose, whether they deployed three 6 year olds in the front row, and had my Aunt Sally's granny in the 15 shirt. Following the anthems, and before kick-off, everyone was buzzing in the stadium with hairs still sticking up on back of necks - Jeremy Guscott said he turned to one of his fellow pundits, and said with a horrified face something along the lines - Oh God - we're going to get slaughtered - and they don't know it.

"I remember that back in ‘07, O’Connell stated that they’d become too ambitious and that they needed to batten down the hatches and focus on the basics." That's interesting. Throughout the 00's - with the exception of the last couple of years - I've always felt that they based their game on a high-tempo, expansive gameplan. Look at the shellacking England received in 2007, which was a wonderful Irish performance. However much criticism England have received in the last seven years, they have never been smashed by a six nations team like they did on that day. So come World cup-time, did Ireland revert to a negative gameplan?

Thanks, Pothale.

Thanks, Pajovic. On the depth issue, there's no question that Ireland's depth has improved since 2007. I remember Eddie O'Sullivan claiming that his WC squad was brim full of quality, but I thought he was kidding himself. The difference in 2010 is significant. But the problem is that a team needs most depth in the tight five - that's where bodies get beaten up most and where substitutes make the most impact - and this (as you point out) is where Ireland are rather shallow. I agree about loaning players. I've read that Kidney is furious that so many of his players are being blocked by foreigners. This is this drawback of having only 3 1/2 provinces. It surprises me that there isn't more movement between Leinster/Munster and Ulster. Is this a tax issue? Or perhap a cultural issue? I would have brought Cullen on for O'Callaghan. Then Ireland would have had two classy jumpers and perhaps a better chance of keeping the ball away from Hamilton and Kellock. I can't blame Kidney for not putting Cronin into such a sticky situation. As for Ireland's general game, I think Matt Williams got it spot on in the Irish Times. He said that you can't expect to transition to an expansive, multi-phase game in the space of one match. Warren Gatland has made the same point: that it's far easier to go from expansive to narrow than it is to go the opposite way. Ireland (and England) are trying to do it the difficult way. When you look at it like that, the gameplan versus Scotland does seem rather arrogant. That said, Ireland do need to open up, so perhaps one shouldn't be too critical when they give it a go. I'm very, very curious to see where Ireland go from here. It seems that every time they try to open up their game, the errors follow. It happened in 2007 and it happened twice this season. I remember that back in '07, O'Connell stated that they'd become too ambitious and that they needed to batten down the hatches and focus on the basics. And that, to be fair, is precisely what they did in '09 and it won them a Slam. Will he argue the same to Kidney now? I think it would be a mistake, since I don't think the IRB will allow Ireland's '09 gameplan to succeed any more. The IRB wants tries and multi-phase attacking, so Ireland are going to have to adapt whether they want to or not.

But what I'm suggesting is that it might not be for the benefit of the team. It may well be, but it depends who you're talking about, Colin.

But if it's for the benefit of the team..... It's not like England are lacking in back-row players, and if the player is given a job to do of which they are capable, of smashing into rucks and getting quick-ball, then it can only help England.

Fair enough point VC, I guess where I was coming from was, despite, injuries to some key players, the Irish seem to have a reasonably decent replacement for most positions (apart from the obious 1&3, saying that, Ross had a decent game v Connacht at the weekend, and Sexton looked a bit better. I'd love to see Felix Jones get a shot, he was brilliant at the Churchill Cup last year. Lenister reject Fionn Carr and Munster rejects Frank Murphy and Sean Cronin were great too.its' a SHME that Cronin never got any game time in the 6 nations. If Munster and Leinster were to perhaps loan their underused younger squad players to Connachtfor a season or two, more gems might appear. Dara mooted this idea before and I for one think itsa great one. Game time in the ML and CC (HC next year?) would really develop these guys. As for Kidney's conservatism on the bench: Sean Cronin, Tony Buckley, Leo Cullen, Shane Jennings, Eoin Reddan, Ronan O'Gara, Rob Kearney. Who would you have brought on, and under which circumstances? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Kearney was back to his best v Connacht the other night too. Hopefully he can maintain this form in the HC. As for O'Driscoll's handling VC, I disagree with you there. Overall though I agree that there is still something slightly stodgy about their whole game in general. I can't put my finger on it. Finally, this is one of the best threads in a long time. Well done DL,VC,WW & Pots for the insight.

I think the conversion might run the risk of diluting the dynamism of specific players. Would Haskell, just as an example, be able to make 30 metre breaks or score tries as he did versus Perpignan if he had to pack down and shove Dan Cole forward every so often? I'm all for players like Tim Rodber, Martin Corry, Matt Cockbain, Trevor Brennan etc plodding into the second row as they become older and slower, but I don't think manipulating players into a new position is necessarily the right thing for England right now. England still need Shaw, and if Shaw breaks down then I'd chuck in Lawes and let him learn on the hoof.

VC/WW I must say that I'm simply standing back in admiration of the level of insight, analysis and debate the two of you have given on this topic, particularly in relation to the forwards issue, and technical ability of players. I'm a wiser man as a result. Very impressive, gentlemen - much appreciated.

I suppose what I'm saying is that, should England convert a dynamic back-row forward into a lock, considering the problems England are having there?

'What about Dan Ward-Smith? He moved to lock against Northampton and did quite well. Wasps’ scrum was fairly solid, and made a decent contribution in the loose. He’s dynamic as well.' Yeah, Ward-Smith went quite well but Wasps don't rely on his impact as Ireland do with Ferris. His move to lock (although he is an inch or two too short) is probably not that much of an issue because his carrying game is greatly reduced from what it was at Bristol. He's a powerful athlete, so I would assume that he'd be useful in the scrum, much more than a player like Tom Croft, for example.

What about Dan Ward-Smith? He moved to lock against Northampton and did quite well. Wasps' scrum was fairly solid, and made a decent contribution in the loose. He's dynamic as well.

I think Vickery at his peak was a phenomenal rugby player, but that he has long had occasional problems in the scrum. It seems mildly insulting to the man to recall his past antics whilst he is currently so docile. He really was an exceptional player. It's a shame what happened during the 1st Lions test because I don't think he was at fault.

I think that O'Callaghan could play like him, but without the same impact given that he is the smaller man. I don't think he would effect the same influence around the pitch but that he is still capable of playing rugby in that manner. I can only think of a few other locks who could do that. I would be against moving Ferris to lock because he is a very good 6. I would have no qualms in somebody like Worsley attempting to play 4 for the simple reason that his body is clearly slowing down, but I wouldn't run the risk of negating Ferris's youthful vigour. Perhaps in a horses for courses type of move (i.e. against specific teams), but not over the long-term. If that were to occur with Ferris then I don't see why Rocky Elsom also couldn't try a bit of locking.