From the get go, I need to proclaim that I have never been a fan of Mr Donald and have for some time thought him out of his depth in Black. He has struggled at Super 14 controlling games, let alone that one step higher.
However it is not like his performance was out of character on Saturday was it?
Donald, it has to be said, has been consistent in all his performances in Black over the last few years in that he is not possessive of a big game temperament, not “hot n cold” either, but consistently tepid.
We have grown to appreciate that about his game.
So why when the All Blacks were only a dozen or so points ahead did Smith, and to a lesser degree Henry, sub him on? (Why is he in Hong Kong for a start?)
The word is that Henry and Smith were only ever going to trial Carters dodgy ankle/calf/whatever it was for 60 minutes anyway, but then from another scribe close to the Carter camp we hear that he was good to go for the entire 80 and didn’t want to be benched.
You can be assured that if he was good to start, he was good to finish. Period!
Too much has been laid on the shoulders of Donald for the loss and no eggs are being tossed where IU believe they should be hurled: at messers Smith and Henry.
We hear about Smith’s, and to a lesser degree Henry’s, style to choose players for what they contribute to their playing style, pattern, game plan, however you want to frame it. And herein lies the dilemma.
What do they see Donald bringing to the table that we all are oblivious to?
The same can be said about several other players who featured in Black and were the ire of a nation but not the three wise men: Sione Lauaki comes to mind.
Shouldn’t the selectors’ credentials come into question? Who are they again?
I don’t need to go into detail here as you all will have varying degrees of adjectives to describe Donalds’ and other “project players” added-value, but for me the buck stops with the conductor pointing at a violinist to produce a sound more resonant with a drum.
It’s as simple as that for me.
Jerry
Guest
Really? Shane Howarth, Steve Devine, Richard Fromont and Jeremy Stanley were such monumental talents they'd have prospered under anyone? And some of those guys played elsewhere before Henry coached them? Yet one of the main things people use to hail Deans is that he took players from other unions and made successes of them. It's obviously pointless arguing with you as you fail to accept any point that goes against your ingrained notions. Lets stick to facts - Henry excelled at developing players and winning teams at NPC and S12 level and he's got a far far far better record as an international coach.
Joseph
Roar Rookie
Did you read above Jerry? Henry didnt mould those players as they would have made the AB's from any other first divison team playing at the time and further champ if your going to use wiki to support your rant at least look at where many of these guys were actually discovered? Many Like I say ALL of these guys would have maded the AB's from any other First Div team then - Henry didnt make them! laughable hahahaha The direct contrast being ordinary players like Scott Hamilton, Sam Broomhall, Ben Blair and more WOULD NOT have played AB's under any other NZ coach. Thanks for reminding me of that fact.
ohtani's jacket
Guest
Deans chose ordinary players for the All Blacks just like he chooses ordinary players for the Wallabies. The most telling thing about Deans' time with the All Blacks washow much had to be fixed when Henry and Co come on board. The same thing will happen with the Wallabies once he's gone.
Jerry
Guest
All Blacks developed under Henry while with Auckland or the Blues. Robin Brooke, Craig Dowd, Shane Howarth, Lee Stensness, Richard Fromont, Carlos Spencer, Jonah Lomu, Adrian Cashmore, Andrew Blowers, Junior Tonu'u, Charle Reichelmann, Jeremy Stanley, Caleb Ralph, Joeli Vidiri, Xavier Rush. And in his second stint with the Blues, Steve Devine, Mils Muliaina, Joe Rokocoko and Ben Atiga. Some of those guys are AB legends, some are fairly ordinary. But then Deans gets credit for McCaw and Carter as well as the likes of Scott Hamilton or Mark Robinson.
johnny-boy
Guest
As a proud Henry & Co hater I have to admit they havent done too bad a job since being retained. Although I couldn't let them go without saying it is in part because Deans has misread the Wallaby pschye, and/or vice versa and PDV it just a blessing to every country except SA
Joseph
Roar Rookie
Taranaki made the Top6 in the ITM Cup Ben...any new names from there on the EOYT? got an answer to my example re Henry losing to and then struggling in the next game versus France "C" last year? Didnt he also struggle against Sicilly the following week too? Ask yourself should a coach with such a great player pool as NZ's be losing to a France "C" team and struggling V Italy?????????
Joseph
Roar Rookie
Name a few players Henry developed that were not already on the rise of their own accord? Now we are talking no bodies to somebodies remember so dont give me Sean Fitzy, Zinzan blah blah as they all would have made the AB's from any other provincial team. cmon?
Joseph
Roar Rookie
Jerry! Donald struggles at S14!!!!! Hell he got owned in Blenheim 2 years ago at ITM Cup or whatever it was called against some no-body flyhalf from the Mako's. Another media beat up about Donald being out of his depth in Black but protecting him by stating he is a good flyhalf at S14. The guy is crap down there too. Might produce a good game here and there but certainly not consistent. please reply with some degree of research and competenc and that is my point RIGHT THERE!!! Why does Henry pick him when he has such a vast player pool to choose from that Deans does not. Daniel Braid has only come into favour again not because of his ability but how he has always played fits with the new laws. I wonder if
Jerry
Guest
Way to miss the point there. The test arena is a harder testing ground for players. People like Stephen Donald, Daniel Braid and Matt Giteau who are stars at Super 14 struggle at test rugby. So the margins between hit and miss for a player are far smaller. Hence the fact that test coaches don't tend to have a chance to develop projects the way S14 coaches can. When Henry was in a similar position, he was just as capable of developing players.
Ben S
Roar Guru
'What a load of rubbish Jerry the test arena is simply not a harder testing ground.' ? 'More to the point – Henry has the best player pool to choose from on planet far advanced to Deans or say Marc Lievermont or Warren Gatland.' And yet Australia had three Super sides finish in the top 6 of last season's Super 14.
Sammo
Guest
What I also dont understand is that Cruden and Slade both spent good time in the All Black camp earlier on in the year. They both trained and worked themselves into the team situation. Henry and co would have spent time with them going through the playbook and working on combinations. It was Cruden and Slade jostling for position as the favoured backup 10 to Carter. And then all of a sudden all that progress is thrown out the window and Henry picks Donald for the tour after he performed well for a few games in the ITM cup against cellar dwelling teams leaving Slade, Cruden and the NZ public reeling. These upcoming games are very important as they will be some of the last few games the ABs will play together and is precious time to spend on blooding the best candidates for the World cup team. But still Henry persists with fading and tried and failed players. Maybe its personal preference to these players as 'friends' or maybe Henry & co believe these ageing players deserve to share in the limelight with some of the future's bignames. Henrys logic also sometimes reeks of utter arrogance like the way Hosea Gear had to pretty much pull the sun down from the sky to be picked in the ABs, how much hoops did that guy have to jump through while having carrots dangled infront of his face by Henry & co only to be left out in the cold.
Joseph
Roar Rookie
What a load of rubbish Jerry the test arena is simply not a harder testing ground. Any ITM Cup or S14 coach would kill to have the player pool to choose players from, budgets to pay them and support to coach and train them. Furthermore they have considerable sway over where prospective international players play at S14 or ITM as well as influence over how they as AB's coaches would like to see NZ rugby via NZRFU high performance coaching play in any given season!! So dont give me the old "oh it is harder for Henry at this level" crap. Furthermore Henrys bad projects or failed player experiments are less to do with the players calibre and more to do with henry not being able to bring the best out of them. Simple fact Jerry unless you too subscribe to the Henry "can walk on water" Destiny Church cheerleader team. Open your eyes man. You like so many think being picked for your national team is the making of you when in fact your making as a player is moulded 1 maybe 2 rungs down otherwise you would have been seeing more Craig Wickes projects being picked for the AB's from 1st XV??? National coaches and selectors have the luxury and I MEAN LUXURY of choosing from that countries best skilled, mature and experienced personnel. More to the point - Henry has the best player pool to choose from on planet far advanced to Deans or say Marc Lievermont or Warren Gatland. Deans aside lets look at Lievermont aye the fact Henry was beaten in NZ by a French team minus their stars committed to their club final speaks volumes of his ability given all the criteria above. The fact he may not have had key players available to him that game again says more about his development of players to step up, remain committed and motivated than Lievermont possing a better player pool to choose from. I am sure Deans would love Henrys sand-pit but yet with his limited toys he is still able to come close on recent occassions and now beat Henry on his terms, no fluke no refereeing bias. The fact is Henry has always been in possession of a ferrari but has struggled with the gear shift for some time. Citreon seem to spoil his podium appearances and now the Holden team seem to have his measure. The fact is every now and then he does get his car through all the gears but on the odd ocassion he struggles to get his car out of 2nd gear. We saw what happened when he drove the Ferarri like a Camry in Cardiff in 07 and his reliance on his 3rd and 4th gear driving (Carter & McCaw) or rather inability to use these gears has been shown up by the old used Citroen last year. Given his reliance on his two "key" gears if one broke down mid race does he have a strategy to win the race this time around or should we be looking for a driver who can use all the gears of the NZ rugby Ferarri.
Sylvester
Guest
MOC, I thought Joe had an reasonable game. What'd he do wrong?
Jerry
Guest
Mine. Cause you're wrong about Senio making the AB's after transferring. He was an AB in 2005 after playing for the Chiefs. He then transferred to Canterbury and the Crusaders (here's an article written at the time http://www.nzherald.co.nz/canterbury/news/article.cfm?l_id=121&objectid=10347695 ) whereupon Deans pretty much left him on the bench preferring Andy Ellis. And you simply can't compare a S12/14 coach to an international coach. Henry has trialled players at test level and some haven't panned out. It's a much harder testing ground than Super rugby and projects often aren't going to really get the chance to develop (look how many people regard Toeava as a failure despite him playing pretty well far more often than not). When Henry coached NPC and S12 he developed loads of players, just as Deans has.
Joseph
Roar Rookie
Jerry I thnk you'll find Senio made the AB's from BoP via Deans mentoring at the Crusaders, so was this supporting your point or mine? OJ the issue is whether Deans is a better coach than Henry based around where players have gone after being under their respective watches. Deans may very well have propelled to the AB's some ordinary AB's but he never picked them for the AB's Henry did. He was great for getting ordinary players to play out of their skin. Henry was not.
ohtani's jacket
Guest
The All Black lineout actually come right in the second half winning 7 from 7.
ohtani's jacket
Guest
How many players did Mitchell and Deans churn through in their minor stint with the All Blacks? And don't get me started on the Deans alumni. Has any coach ever produced as many pretenders as Robbie Deans?
Taniwha
Guest
I won't regurgitate all of the above, as a degree of sense being spoken. You would have to say that the last three games, the AB's have not being on the boil/intensity that the initial tri nation games had. McCraw mentioned as much in a radio interview this morning, that were a few bad habits had crept in the last few games which because they won had not been focused on enough to get fixed. One being the line out, that old chest nut!
Darwin Stubbie
Guest
Giteau has gone backwards at a rate of knots ... and whilst not actually getting any worse (because I actually don't think it would have been possible) continually selecting Ben Blair has got to be up there ...
Jerry
Guest
Kevin Senio. Rocky Elsom.