New era has NRL clubs feeling giddy

There is no 'double counting' in relation to RL's FTA Australia-wide TV audience or any other TV program. Areas where there is an overlap (metrop & regional) are called the 'spill areas' & the ratings are adjusted accordingly. See here: http://www.freetv.com.au/SiteMedia/w3svc087/Uploads/Documents/c80ecceb-5959-4760-80ca-78a4cf5213b2.pdf

So much fascination with TV ratings? Yet when the AFL crowd pull out the Crowd figures and Memberships.. They are ignored.. OR a negative spin is put on it. Why is that? I find crowds are a better indicator of a sports popularity. But thats just my Opinion. Continue the discussion.

Just some more ammunition for the debate NRL 2010 Outcomes: • Regular season NRL matches on metropolitan and regional FTA television attracted more 12.2 million unique viewers. • More than 3.1 million viewers across metropolitan and regional Australia tuned in to watch the St George Illawarra Dragons defeat the Sydney Roosters 32-8 in the 2010 NRL Telstra Premiership Grand Final at a packed ANZ Stadium. • The Round 23 Broncos v Eels clash was the highest rating Telstra Premiership match on Channel Nine in 2010 attracting an average audience of over 1.2 million nationally. • Round 1 Eels v Dragons had the highest Sydney rating in the 2010 season, with 523,849 unique viewers tuning into Channel Nine for the game. • Round 1 Broncos v Titans have the highest Brisbane rating in the 2010 season, with 361,633 unique viewers tuning into Channel Nine for the game. • While the introduction of multi-channels has reduced market share for all traditional primary stations, Rugby League outperformed all other sports year-on-year across FTA TV. Despite this industry wide drop, Friday night ratings for Sydney rose 5% against 2009. • Game 1 of the 2010 Harvey Norman State of Origin Series was the world’s first sporting event broadcast live in 3D on FTA TV and was the highest rating game since the introduction of the OzTAM Survey Ratings, both nationally (3.6 million-plus viewers) and in Sydney (1.18 million viewers). • The State of Origin Series was also the most viewed ever across the five capital cities with 6.4 million-plus fans tuning in, and a further 3.3 million watching in regional Australia. • The Round 21 Eels v Roosters game (5:30pm Super Saturday) set the record for the highest rating Fox Sports game in NRL Premiership history, enthralling 360,633 viewers. • The Telstra Premiership demonstrated its power on Subscription TV, claiming 73 of the Top 100 programs in 2010. • NRL remains the most dominant sport on Fox Sports across all time slots. • In Sydney, the Rugby League Grand Final and State of Origin Game I occupied the first and second highest rating free to air programs of the year respectively. In Brisbane, the top four places were occupied by Rugby League with State of Origin Games II, I and III taking the top three rating free to air programs of the year respectively and the Rugby League Grand Final coming in at fourth place. • Rugby League provided eight of the top 10 most watched programs of any kind in Brisbane and six of the top 10 in Sydney. Looking at sporting programs only, Rugby League provided the top 10 most watched programs in Brisbane and nine of the top 10 in Sydney. • NRL matches on Fox Sports reached an audience of more than 3.5 million unique viewers.

GoGWS whilst we all on this forum have a democratic right to say what we like, within reason, I do get annoyed when peole put comments on that may not be a matter of fact. The first point I have is with your statement that " the AFL gets substantially more for it broadcast rights because it has a substantial lead in the ’5 city’ ratings" I have never heard of this criterion nor have I ever heard David Gallop nor anyone else within the NRL make this statement. Having said that it is normal practice when debating a topic that the person making the statement s produce the evidence to support such statments. You failed to do this and expect others to contact the NRL to varify what you have stated. I have contaced the NRL and hopefully will get a reply but It is your responsibility to deliver the evidence to support your claim(s). However I will inform you of the facts, as I am aware of them. When both the AFL and NRL were negotiating their TV contracts the NRL was still recovering from the Super League War and was still damaged goods in the eyes of both channel 7 @ 10. Also Kerry Stokes and Kerry Packer were at war with each other and in a stroke of genius Kerry Packer entered into the AFL negotiations with the sole intentt of driving the price of AFL up so it would become very expensive for channel 7. This Kerry Packer acheived. So the argumnet that this 5 city basis that you are on about had nothing to do with the previous negotiations. The arguments have raged regarding the monies paid for the AFL and NRL rights. From what I have been able to gather it the AFL did very well out of the last TV rights but not because of the product or the skills of the negotiating teams. It was because Kerry Packer drove the cost upwards. Many peole believe the AFL was paid to much for their product. On the other hand the NRL received its $500 million (plus another $50 million from Sky NZ I believe) a total of $550 million for a damaged product. Again debate has raged since whether the NRL obtained the right amount. Who is to know? Ceratainly not you or I. This time the playing field has dramatically altered. The NRL has postioned itself as the no1 TV rating domestic football code in Australia. (I take note that you dispute this fact). It is now a valued product and its value has sky rocketed. Also at the same time AFL product has plunged. Both 7 and 10 will be re-evaluting AFL's real worth as it has failed miserably in the no 1 and 3 market in Australia (NSW and QLD). The NRL will have all the commercal channels vying to become part of the NRL. To make the most of this the NRL have decided to package the game into 3 sectors, Domestic comp, SOO @ international. The AFL has no such ability. It will be interesting times indeed. I will also state that if a second NZ team is introduced the liklehood is a deal with Sky NZ around $20 million per year ($100 million) on top what ever the NRL will receive. So lets do a Hypothetical: Lets say the AFL gets its $1 billion dollars (unlikey as I think it is) The NRL should be able to obtain(given the ratings in and an 18 team comp) very similar to the AFL but I will state 800 million for the domestic competition: $200 million for SSO and 50 million - 75 million for Internationals then add NZ at $100 milliion That would give the NRL around $1.2 billion. But this is all hypothecal and we need to stand bye to standbye to see what actually happens. All i will say is the NRL is well positoned to reap substantally more than previous. I also take humberage at another statement you have made: "the NRL in all likelihood will have a 16 team competition with 400 listed players" The NRL will be entering the 2013 cometion with at least 18 teams and possibly more (if not 2013 and then 2014). There are six bids that the NRL have received to join the NRL: Perth, Central Coast, Southern NZ, Central QLD, A 2nd Brisbane side and PNG. Adelaide have shown interest but as both Adelaide AFL clubs are losing monies there is little chance in the short term for them. Another statement that you have made " the AFL has built substantial assets and the NRL has no assets" again show your lack of understanding.. To inform you just a little, the Penrith Panthers have assests of over $250 million more than the AFL clubs Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sydney, GWS, Adelaide, Port and others combined. I note again that reality is different to how you make it sound. My last comment is on this block is a gem of a statement of yours, "The reason for gap in AFL and NRL broadcast deals is well understood and accepted, if not people on this forum by the NRL itself". I have explained the politics behind how the AFL was able to obtain a greater payment for their product and it hand little to do with this 5 city ratings that you continually rant on about. If you are going to debate a subject please ensure you stick to facts. You appear to be very pationate about your code of football but you do yourself and the AFL a dis-service when you do not stick to facts and you allow your obvious dislike of NRL to cloud your reasoning.

Paul J. I also note that no one is bringing up NZ which is where one team in the NRL is playing. Those ratings must also be included. Also know one has pointed out that QLD, NSW and ACT on there own is a bigger market• NRL has a higher saturation (population) density and the NRL's target area is as follows:t *NSW 7.22 Million (2010) *QLD 4.50 million (2010) *ACT 358,000 (2010) Total Australian 12.078 million. *PNG 6.6 million (2006) *NZ 4.143 million(2006) Total 22. million. On the other hand: Vic. 5,529 million SA 1,641 million WA 2,286 million Tas. 507 thousand Total: 9.963 million Aust 22,272 AFL, can only claim VIC, TAS, SA and WA and, if my brother is right, they are starting to lose their grip on WA with the influx of UK,SA and QLD-NSW people. • The demographics of the NRL is larger than the AFL. From what I have been able to obtain and realising that we all can debate the pros and cons of the upcoming TV rghts deals but given that the NRL have surpassed everyones expectations and the AFL have performed below for more monies it will be very interesting indead. I think that the NRL will actually gain more monies than the AFL for several reasons. All the commercials channels will be bidding for the rights and the NRL will be negotiating after the AFL have finailalised theirs. Also SOO will be offerred seperatley as will internationals.What are they worth?? The unforseen variable is whether the NRL will go to 18 or 20 teams which is becoming more possible with many excellant submissions from: WA, NZ, CQLD, SQLD, not to forget Centrral Coast, PNG and Sunshine Coast.

DB Swannie, You are right with your summary of the FTA ratings. My Left Foot and others are simply wrong. But why let truth interfere with their version of the facts So what drives these AFL people to continue to debate an issue that has proven them wrong. It is my opinion that we need to look at the make up of the people themselves. AFL (VFL) is a Victorain game (with its roots within the UK). Therefore there is more to this debate for Victorians than just why everything about that state lies at the feet of the AFL and the need to drum this sport into evey living Australian. Melbourne and their people are still struggling with their inferiority complex when dealing with NSW and Sydney. Victorians have still to forgive Captain Cook for discovering the East Coast of Australia and not the Southern Coast. All their problems as a race stem from this inexplicable act of God that drove Captain Cook to discover Botany Bay in 1770. In 1788 Capt Phillip on arrival searched and found what is now the site of the first and no 1 city in Australia. This Melbourne people still can't bring themselves to accept.. Ever since then Melbourne has been the poor cousin, to Sydney, in just about everything. Lets see when most people in the world are asked about an Australian City inveribly it is Sydney they mention. We also know that Sydney is recognised the world over for having the following: The greatest harbour in the world: Melbourne has Port Phillip Bay (nothing really) The greatest single arched bridge in the world Melbourne has oh nothing; The greatest and most recognisable Opera House in the world Melbourne oh has nothing; One of the most recognisable beaches in the world in Bondi: Melbourne has oh nothing; The home of the greatest Oluympic games ever held in the world (to the present day); The home of one of the worlds greatest yacht races. The greatest fire works display in the world - New Years Eve. And it goes on and on. Sydney is a city, and people, who are very comfortable within themselves wherebye Melbourne people are in general insecure and always looking towards something that they claim is bigger and better than Sydney and NSW. Hence the imporatnce that, as a people they pout so much emphisis on trying to prove that AFL is an Australian game (which it is not) and that it is superior to all sports in the world not just NRL. To be fair Melbourne, in their opinion, have the following: The greatest horse race in Ausralia; The greatest Cricket ground in the world; The greatest Grand final of any football code in the word. Really the best thing Melbourne has is the Hume Hwy heading north out of the place. I said it in 1972 when I was posted to HMAS Cerberus and I have never changed my mind. So with compasion and empathy we debate with these peoples mainly for our pleasure and enjoyment. I am comfortable with the knowledge that I can say without any reservations that AFL is not the no 1 football code in Australia and FTA/PTV ratings are over whelming in favour of the NRL. Nothing more needs to be said on this subject.

DB Swannie. Bravo Bravo or in naval terminology Bravo Zulu (well done).

Football Tragic. The reason why NRL, on occassions, trumpets the ratings cards is the fact that the AFL, with help from the Melbournes Media, dish out misleading and deceitful information that requires clarification. One issue is the ongoing ratings being debated here. The NRL does not normally try to compare itself with AFL, as you state it does, as it simply does not have too. The fact is AFL is the code that is worried and concerned, as it should be. You now trumpet the membership (as does the Wookie) card as if it is some sort of medal to be worn on the chest. I have never heard Rugby Union, Soccer or Rugby League carry on about this one issue. Yet it appears that all these codes thrive. It amazes me reading your comments that no matter what other peole have to say you will continue to spruik the line that you are right. I beg to differ. Anyway for a code of football that you, The Wookie and others claim has so much going against it you seem overly worried about Rugby League. I pointed out in a comment in this post earlier that for a code that you seem to deried (seeminlgy because you are worried about is potential) it has far more potential to expand than AFL On expansion FYI, I will also point out that only two areas, I am aware of, wanted to be part of the 18 team AFL expansion plans: Gold Coast and Tasmania. For some reason GWS got the nod. This franchise is solely owned by the AFL and is unwanted by the vast majority of Sydney siders, as I understand it. On RL expansion Central QLD, Perth, PNG, NZ, Central Coast, Sunshine Coast, SQLD are just 7 bids that have put up their hands for inclusion into the NRL. Not bad for a sport that you and others, want to deride as being of little value to the corporate world or has little support. It appears that infact RL has more to offer the corporate world than AFL. Also apart from Perth all other areas are RL strong holds and in Perth the demography is rapidly changing. Also RL will not have to spend anywhere near the amounts of monies AFL are reported to be allocating tp spend to prop up Gold Coast and GWS at 20 million each year. I also point out with the new anti siphoning rules to take effect and the three rectangle codes have far more to gain than AFL. Here in Brisbane both channel 7 and 10 want a piece of the NRL cake as Rugby League on Pay TV out rates FTA coverge of AFL. The ratings here in Brisbane for AFLare abysmal. The AFL's biggest problem is its arrogance and its own warped sense of superiority over all other sports.

Keep telling them. No response. Means great point.

Simply wrong. misleading and mischevious.

Now for more. Our AFL friends are so infatuated with their sport they will believe anything that Demetrio tells them. Wookie also states that AFL is in front with amenities. Let’s see. 17 teams in AFL use 9 grounds. RL uses 16 of those Dairy Farmers is the best stadium in NQLD, Suncorp is recognised as the best RL ground in the world; Gold Coast has a new stadium, as does Melbourne. Canberra has the best stadium in Canberra, Sydney City uses the SFS an all seat stadium, and Newcastle ground will have a new Western grandstand ready this year with a capacity in excess of 30,000, Parramatta has a 20,000 all seater. Win Stadium is presently having a new eastern grandstand under contruction. Kogarah oval has more renovations planned. The stadiums that need work on are Penrith’s, Cronulla's, Manly's and both West’s (Leichardt and Campbelltown). I would argue that yet again that Wookie is being rather misleading on this matter. Like most Victorians he will claim that the MCG is the best stadium in the world. It is not and is a vast cavernous monstrosity that for most events (including cricket) is empty. Ethiad is a good stadium but again is not good for the rectangle sports of this world a fact noted by the Victorian Government. Adelaide AAMI is a dilapidated and out of date hence the need to build another one. This one will be a 55,000 all seater designed for all football codes. A slap in the face for AFL who wanted a specific ground for AFL only. Subiaco is also becoming old and recent events have seen the WA government stick it to West Coast Eagles and the AFL and knocked back demands for a 1 billion 70,000 seat stadium to be built. One of the reasons given was that RU, RL and AF have chosen Members Equity stadium to play from as it is a true football ground. $85 million is being spent on stage 1 development to horror of West Coast. At this point there are plans to redevelop the stadium further. The AFL abandoned all suburban grounds (as I understand it) to ensure that all clubs played out of Ethiad Stadium (for its own agenda). Whilst Wookie is correct to some degree on a couple of stadiums but he fails to acknowledge that you can only judge what is available in that region. The facts do not necessarily support his claims. Wookie talks about media coverage. I am unsure how he can quantify this remark but if he wants to include the St Kilda sex scandal, The Brisbane Lions assaulting of a women, Brendon Fevola etc etc. He may be right. But the fact is here in Brisbane AFL in the media gets limited airing. Right now it is the QLD Roar with the most media attention by far. The fact is here in Brisbane it is Brisbane Broncos no 1, thence the Qld Red s then the Brisbane Lions. Just a side line Brisbane Broncos is the No 1 profitable football club in Australia and Melbourne Storm is the no1 most recognisable brand. The Wookie notes the AFL commission unsure as to what this has to do with anything. I will however state that it is widely acknowledged that RL in this country has been poorly administered for over 20 years and yet given the vast resources of the AFL it has largely failed to take over. Only time will tell re the ARLC. But if the right people are chosen and they set the right direction well imagine what RL can achieve. On expansion I will also point out that only two areas, I am aware of, wanted to be part of the 18 team AFL expansion: Gold Coast and Tasmania. For some reason GWS got the nod. This franchise is solely owned by the AFL and is unwanted by the vast majority of Sydney siders. On RL expansion Central QLD, Perth, PNG, NZ, Central Coast, Sunshine Coast, SQLD are just 7 bids that have put up their hands for inclusion into the NRL. Not bad for a sport that Wookie, and others, want to deride as being of little value to the corporate world or has little support. It appears that infact RL has more to offer the corporate world than AFL. Also apart from Perth all other areas are RL strong holds. Adelaide is a difficult prospect given that the 3 national teams presently playing are losing monies. Adelaide is in the red for $800,000 and Port for over 1 m million dollars. The fact is for the NRL there are far more important regions for RL than a small city of 1 million people. They will pay games there as they do now. Brisbane lost $2.4 million. I wonder how much Gold Coast is going to lose?? IMO Perth and a second NZ team will be introduced in 2013 with 2 more teams likely in 2014 Central QLD and SQLD team. The fact is RL has far more potential than AFL for expansion. PNG has already been informed they will enter the NRL once it successfully reaches the required benchmarks set down for entry. Getting back to the original intention of my post. No one code dominates the Australian landscape like EPL does in the UK and NFL do in Nth America. They are truly no 1 in their countries. AFL, RU, AF or NRL dominate in certain categories; none dominate in all the necessary categories.

I have to go to work and will add more to this one sided debate tonight on my return

The Wookie continues his debate on the AFL. One things for sure and that is The Wookie is patiionate about AFL but has also blinded him to the realities and fact. I have debated The Wookie before and proven his argumens to be wrong. Again he states that NRL (and does not ment ion any other codes) is way behind in eveything. This of couse is not a fact. How does one substatiate which sport is the dominate one in any market?? For example: American baseball has 79 million people goe thru the turnstiles this season. Does that make Base ball the no1 sport in the world. Hang on NFL averaged 68,000 people per game making it the largest average crowd for any sport in the world. Then English Premier League is the no 1 watched football competition in the world (TV). So which one is no 1??? These are the facts as I know them to be: Attendances for Domestic Competion AFL is no 1, Attendance for a intra country competition is Rugby Union no 1 Attendances for Internationals is Rugby Union no 1; Pay TV Ratings NRL is no 1; FTA ratings sees NRL no 1; Social Membership AFL is no 1; Club membership NRL is no 1; Merchadise sale NRL is no 1; No one football code dominates in Australia that is a fact. Again the Wookis claims AFL domiance by stating that it has an elite presence in every state. This is not fact. AFL has team (s) in Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Geelong, Sydney, Brisbane, and Gold Coast. That is 5 states. The NRL ave a presence in NTH QLD, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Sydney, Wollongong, Canberra, Melbourne and Auckland. That is 3 states, One territory and NZ. That is a totla of 5 the same as AFL. But the NRL is played in more autonmous regions 8 in fact too the AFL's 5. In my last debate with the Wookie he then tried to state that because AFL play preimership games in NT and Tasmania then he could use these as well. I then stated to him then NRL plays games in Perth, South Island of NZ then I too could use these as well. The fact is The Wookie argumnent is totally flawed. Also just to add some more both Adelaide and Port Power are in the Red. Brsibane Lions ;lost 2.4 million last year and are looking at a larger loss this year.

Canberra represents a huge area for regional RL fans.

Now everyone knows I'm a big league fan, but fair dinkum you Sydney hipocrites. In 2011 there will be 8.5 Sydney teams in the NRL, only 1.5 teams representing the rest of NSW (Newcastle and Illawarra, if you call that regional), only 1 in Brisbane and only 3 in all of QLD - Australia's best rugby league state, and only one team from "developing" states. Yet, all we've heard for months is that no more Sydney teams should be lost from the NRL. Now, you are all giving sermons on the virtues of regional Australia and how important it is for the game. Fair dinkum!

"Fair dinkum" said it all.

Football Tragic. If you can't get the average attendance for NRL games right for 2010,you have some real problems.Please do some homework and cut the off the cuff guesswork.The fact is their numbers were up,and the AFL numbers were down.Comparing average crowds does not alter one iota, one is up one is down. The fact NRL memberships are at record levels,has nought to do with comparisons with AFL.They are at record levels in the game of rl. In fact the networks are aware of the TV ratings in Sydney and they ceratinly ch10 is nto happy,after paying big bucks.Does it sink into your head that the largest city with the largest(densest population if you wish) delivers paltry Tv ratings for the AFL.The AFL is going to come in armed with that fact in their negotiations.Good luck. No one is manipulating figures ,the regionals are what they are.To dismiss areas like the Hunter Valley 400,000 plus thousand people,Port Macquarie 60,000 ,Coff harbour 40,000 is manipulating.When media pretends 2 miilion people in the north dont; exist it is manipulation. You can bet your bippi,if the position were reversed AD would be pushing the regional bandwaggon ,and so anyone in their right mind should. it is not as if we have a population teh size of China,2 million people out of 22,000 is a fair percentage. The games are onsold to the regional media correct,but one of the big players is Bruce Gordon(now on the ch10 board),who knows he has to secure national advertsiers for his various stations ,and not just rely on the local businesses.If they did that he would out of business in no time. The code is selling its product based on its merits.Murdoch wanted to buy the high qualty product.That is meritorious. The code is heralding their success.>It is in the State of the Game report 2010. Your second last para is ironic.Your fellow travellers have hopped on board and made predictions about the NRL not expanding,the next Tv deal will show a huge disparity in favour of the AFL ,and continue to ignore the KP factor and the News factor.You are quite content in making predictions about the size of the next TV deal,when you have no idea if the NRL will unbundle,sell to 2 stations FTA,or have an additional time slot available.You have no idea whether the NRL can secure a 5 cap cities FTA cover.You have no idea of the makeup of the I.C.,yet have the audacity to lecture. So in effect you are also drawing comparisons. Maybe you guys should stick to what you know best memberships and crowds and "being in a league of its own"apparently..Maybe you should also look at the possibility, that the magic $1b does not eventuate and the NRL crack a far bigger percentage increase.Remember rl translates to the TV screen better.That was the view of News in 95..

To suggest the NRL won't close the gap you would need something like the AFL $900 million and the NRL $580 million? That's a bit fanciful. There is no 5 capital city comparison right now. The AFL have 4 FTA games shown in 5 capital cities (before midnight), the NRL has 3 FTA games in 2 capital cities. For example in round 1 this year, 30 times an AFL game was shown in mainland capital cities before midnight, 33 if you throw in Foxtel. For the NRL in round 1 this year, 6 times a NRL game was shown in mainland capital cities, 11 if you throw in Foxtel. The AFL have 3 times the content but do not have 3 times the accumulative figures. It was 3,440,000 compared to 2,749,000. Now throw in regionals where the NRL have twice the population, and their gap is increasing, and it becomes more even. The anti siphoning laws mean that nine can no longer hoard games so now the NRL get more content on FTA. The NRL will most likely be going to Perth and may be offering a 4th game to FTA. Things are going to improve big time for rugby league.

Big Al Yet we are expected to believe the reams of info(debatable at times) by the other code's fans ,giving their perspective.Making assumptions about what rl will get ,and deciding the makeup of the NRL in 2013. Vlad must be handing out crystal balls to all and sundry . When they ignore the Packer influence and the lack of News inlfuence the next time around,they lose traction. . I have no problem with rugby league ratings neither do the code''s governing body,as their public optimism shows.The fact Hinds has thrown in his 50c worth only reinforces that view. Its all in the nRL State of the Game report for 2010.it makes good bedside reading.

What time do you land back on Planet Earth? You have been shown the REVENUE in RL markets..not potential .BUT ACTUAL$$$$$$ .& it is well ahead of the AFL dominated areas. Yet you still ignore these facts... AS for Gallop ..you like to quote plenty of what he has said..& from a time when he was stil a news ltd boy... Since the talk of the IC & news ltd departure strangely he doesnt talk like that anymore . He now talks expansion ..splitting up the games ..maximising $$$$$...Hired LeK consulting to help with the deal... Seems once the News LTD shackles are off Gallop doesnt have to talk his game down anymore.. And why is it only on Planet GWS that RL will only have a 16 team comp,,to quote your fave rL person Dave Gallop...he is talking up expansion. Your ramblings reek of one thing FEAR..the same fear that drove AFL fans into a frenzy at the thought of a World cup.. Now when you get back to Earth ....take notice of facts from reputable sites that show ALL the facts..not agenda driven sites that skew facts & figures to make themselves feel good.