I’d better explain that headline. The fans who worry that England’s rugby team is not up to snuff are legion – talk to just about anybody in a London rugby pub, but specifically I’m referring to a group I belong to; ten guys and two chicks, all of whom work in the city of London in either law or finance.
All of us are red and white-wearing, Swing Low-singing supporters of Team England, and we’re all worried that Martin Johnson’s men are going to get crunched in NZ in September. We believe that, in order to avoid embarrassment in the RWC, the team needs some serious upgrades in several important positions.
Firstly, the pack. No way they’re going to be known as the Eight Immortals. On an international scale, the front row is not what you’d call hotstuff. Nobody in the first-choice three is as strong as the Beast or can run like he can, or influence the scrum like du Plessis can, or tackle with the ferocity of Polota-Nau. Just in the NH alone the England front row scrummage is inferior to the Welsh and French trios, although the French may have lost Domingo for the RWC.
We’re a lot happier with the second row combo of Palmer and Lawes, two first rate players who are going to keep us afloat in the lineouts and in defence around the park. As for the flankers, while Croft, Moody and Haskell will do a sterling job they’ll be more than a little overshadowed by McCaw/Kaino, Pocock/Elsom and Alberts/Burger/Stegmann.
But the big minus of the pack is this: we don’t have a No. 8 capable of doing what Parisse, Harinordoquy or Heaslip can do, not to mention dynamic SH eights like Palu, Read and Kankowski. Nick Easter is a hard-grafting plodder.
He was Man of the Match in Saturday’s Quins/Tigers game but he plays in a way that went out of fashion years ago although it’s still in fashion with Jonno, and it’s not going to be enough in NZ. So by our count that’s three in the pack who are a cut below where they should be, and one who won’t be very effective.
In the backs, Youngs is excellent and has a feisty backup in Care. And we admire Flood who’s a capable distributor and a reliable place kicker. Ashton and Foden are our danger men, and Cueto and Strettle are adequate. But, alas, we’re way short of attack dogs in the midfield.
Jonno insists on sticking with Tindall and Hape neither of whom could hold Sonny Bill Williams’ horse. What is Flood supposed to do, throw a cut out ball all the way to Ashton? When he passes to either centre nothing much gets accomplished.
Compare the T/H combination with real talent: O’Driscoll/D’Arcy, SBW/Fruen, Nonu/Smith, McAlister/Toeava, Steyn/Jacobs/Fourie and Barnes/Ashey-Cooper/O’Connor. Even Jauzion/Marty/Rougerie can get the job done now and then.
Our lack of thrust in the backs, and our so-so tactical kicking, is amplified by quality 10s like O’Gara, Carter, Cooper and Moyne Steyn. And we haven’t yet mentioned talent like Bowe, Earls, Pienaar, Aplon, Mvovo, Genia, Beale, Mitchell, Ioane, Dagg, Cowan, Gear, Sivivatu, Maitland.
You can see why we’re gloomy – we’re heavily outgunned. And it hasn’t cheered us any to learn that we’ll be playing Argentina in Dunedin which is about as far away from Twickenham as you can get. Our only chance, as we see it, is to resort to the old cliche that defence wins big games. And our defence is pretty good if you leave aside the Irish thrashing.
The best we can hope is for Wilko to come on, kick deep to the corners, and wait for the penalties to come our way. But even so, if Jonno stays stubborn in his selections we won’t make the semis. And with the erratic French coached by a man of questionable talent, it will be up to Ireland to carry the NH banner.
But none of this will stop the Balmy Army from invading the Shaky Isles full of hope and good cheer. They’ll be faithful, raucous and a tremendous asset to Team England. It’s a great shame but the supporters are likely to perform a lot better than the team they’re supporting.
Gavin Henson
Guest
England have a good chance they were lucky not to get a PI team in their pool so should make the quarters and we all know what can happen from the knock out stages. some of the younger players are almost ready to step up into the england team (tuilagi, leicester 12, etc) but i suspect even if they make the wc team they wont have the time together to win 3 knockout games in consecutive weeks. got to give the english supporters credit though. it's always about 'worried we might not win the tournament' whereas welsh are more 'worried we wont get out of the pool'. on recent results england should be happy with a semi final showing but you need to have a bit of that self belief bordering on arrogance if you are to have a chance.
Ben S
Roar Guru
Personally I think O'Gara is a fine player: deceptive pace; great kicker; good hands; good vision. If Cooper, for example, retires with half of the achievements that O'Gara has managed then he would have experienced a very good career.
Ben S
Roar Guru
'Martin Johnson was not renowned for his adherence to the rules' That's lazy stereotype. Anybody who actually watched Johnson during his career would know that he didn't have a bad disciplinary record. To apply a few moments to what was a long career is weak. Further, you haven't made any connection between Johnson and the English disciplinary record during his tenure. 'In contrast he will favour and select those who will flaunt and disregard the Laws' This doesn't make any sense , but whom are these players?
Sluggy
Roar Guru
"quality 10s like O’Gara, Carter, Cooper and Moyne Steyn" O'Gara doesn't belong in that sentence, to be fair. And neither does Steyn. Carter and Cooper (and JOC) are X factor players. They don't come along too often. England had Hill and Greenwood in 03 so don't be greedy.
sixo_clock
Roar Guru
Expansion for Ben S, Martin Johnson was not renowned for his adherence to the rules, some even believe him to be a dirty player. If this is true then he will not instill those attributes in his players. In contrast he will favour and select those who will flaunt and disregard the Laws and whatever your personal beliefs this is a weakness that will have his team penalised out of scoring enough points to win the important games. Notwithstanding the TN success, where I suspect the French forgot to mark it on their calendar, the WC is a bigger contest and much much harder to win.
Ben S
Roar Guru
I think Waldrom would have provided a great option (working on the presumption that he could emulate his club level at Test level) off the bench against the Springboks, katzilla. Whilst the England pack is full of very good support players, none of them are bullocking runners. Waldrom could have given some go forward in that match, so I think he might be OK in tighter matches too. Easter is pretty much integral to the way England play, so IMO Waldrom would have to be a bench player, but then we have the issue of dropping out Fourie. Moody has done well for England, but realistically he is not a pilfering 7, so it makes sense to have a player like Fourie on the bench were England to suffer at the breakdown. Tough call.
The Roar
Guest
Restoring comments after outage – apologies for this issue. The Roar =============== Geoff Brisbane Submitted on 2011/04/08 at 8:08 am Ben S Pocock / elsom??? Pocock yes Elsom NO =============== Lee Submitted on 2011/04/08 at 7:40 am ‘As for the flankers, while Croft, Moody and Haskell will do a sterling job they’ll be more than a little overshadowed by McCaw/Kaino, Pocock/Elsom and Alberts/Burger/Stegmann’ I would be surprised if Alberts/Burger/Stegmann are used in that combo at all for the Boks…who knows how the Boks coach will pick his team but Alberts and Stegman would be marginal*…unless there were injuries… Not saying they aren’t good players, it’s just that in the WC they will probably go for a lot of experience…and as far as loosies go, Burger, Smith, Brussow, Spies, Kankowski, are all above those 2. =============== Ben S Submitted on 2011/04/08 at 6:21 am | In reply to Pot Hale. That is true, Pot. Very true. =============== Pot Hale Submitted on 2011/04/08 at 5:42 am | In reply to Ben S. Don’t waste your time, Ben….. you’ve been here before. =============== Viscount Crouchback Submitted on 2011/04/08 at 5:40 am | In reply to katzilla. Waldrom is the classic Super 15 player: fabulous at the fancy dan stuff but lacking in mongrel and not too keen on tackling. He’s been outstanding offensively, but Leicester are unhappy with his defence and with his slack play at the breakdown. Cockerill is working hard to improve these aspects of his game – if he gets them sorted, Waldrom would be a worthy inclusion in the RWC squad, imo, because his ball carrying (a quality England are short of) is superb. =============== Pot Hale Submitted on 2011/04/08 at 5:36 am | In reply to Brett McKay. Brett – I’m 100% confident Ireland will certainly win. At least one match. =============== RC97 Submitted on 2011/04/08 at 5:25 am I’m English in England right now and everyone hear reckons we have got a good shot at the RWC moody’s playing great for bath crofts playing great plus Haskell and now wood in the centre tuilangi looks like he’s set to play for us waldouk is now injured(annoyingly) but this is the best we’ve played since 2003!!! – Comment left via The Roar’s iPhone app. Download The Roar’s iPhone App in the App Store here. =============== Ben S Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 9:08 pm | In reply to katzilla. I recall a conversation I had with OJ two seasons ago where I suggested that Waldrom should have been an All Black. The logic behind my suggestion was that Waldrom provided something different to So’oialo. He is a very good carrier but also a very intelligent carrier. To that extent I’d like to see how he would go in an England jersey, because he offers something that not many other Test forwards can: size, intelligence, soft hands and rugby nous. What you say about him fitting in with MJ’s plans is a very salient point. Nick Easter does a lot of hard graft that gives more freedom to Lawes, Palmer and Croft. I’m not sure if Waldrom would compromise that? But his carrying IMO would also open up avenues for the back five and the back three to play off. I think given his age he is worth playing to see what he can do. Incidentally, I did note his club coach, Richard Cockerill, saying that although he ‘enjoyed’ life outside of rugby he was still a very fit man, one of the fittest at the club, but that he needed to work on his contact skills and the breakdown. =============== katzilla Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 8:33 pm | In reply to Ben S. Ben S, Maybe you can answer my query, what do you think of Waldrom playing for England? Do you think he would offer as much as Easter if given the chance? Would he fit in with MJs plans? =============== Ben S Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 8:10 pm | In reply to Rusty. Blaze retired and Crane is a plodder. A good club player, but too slow and lacking in dynamism for Test rugby, Rusty. =============== Ben S Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 8:09 pm | In reply to sixo_clock. ‘The man should have been left to wallow in his glory. He is not astute enough in the craft of Rugby to coach or build a side that will win the penalty battle’ Please expand on that. =============== Ben S Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 8:07 pm Maybe I’m being overly cynical here, but no way was this written by an English person. Not a chance. Anyway… ‘Nobody in the first-choice three is as strong as the Beast’ I suspect Andrew Sheridan is far stronger. And Steve Thompson isn’t much behind him. ‘or influence the scrum like du Plessis can’ Jannie or Bismarck? I’ve read that Bismarck Du Plessis isn’t a great scrummager. Further, when has SA actually had a dominant scrum in recent seasons? When has the Sharks scrum been dominant? I’d be more concerned by the influence that Bismarck exerts in the loose. If you’re referring to Jannie, then… ‘Just in the NH alone the England front row scrummage is inferior to the Welsh and French trios’ How can you justify this observation? ‘As for the flankers, while Croft, Moody and Haskell will do a sterling job they’ll be more than a little overshadowed by McCaw/Kaino, Pocock/Elsom and Alberts/Burger/Stegmann’ How can you justify this observation? ‘But the big minus of the pack is this: we don’t have a No. 8 capable of doing what Parisse, Harinordoquy or Heaslip can do, not to mention dynamic SH eights like Palu, Read and Kankowski. Nick Easter is a hard-grafting plodder.’ That’s because Easter is utilised in a different manner to all those players, which allows Croft the freedom of the pitch. There is no such thing as a generic number 8. ‘but he plays in a way that went out of fashion years ago’ What is that way? ‘Cueto and Strettle are adequate.’ Adequate? ‘Jonno insists on sticking with Tindall and Hape neither of whom could hold Sonny Bill Williams‘ horse.’ I think you miss the point: England select two big men in midfield because they have a comparatively callow back five and a comparatively small back three. Hape and Tindall are very good defenders who tend to get over the gainline, which creates go forward for others. It’s about a style of play and balance. ‘The best we can hope is for Wilko to come on, kick deep to the corners’ But you just criticised the tactical kicking of England and the ability of the pack? In any case, Wilkinson was very poor for England during the 6N. Also, you must have missed the amount of linebreaks created by England in recent Tests. =============== Chris Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 8:02 pm Maybe Englands Rugby problem is like the guy who wrote this article being his mates work in the city in law and finance. Meaning Rugby should be embraced by all walks of life but iam sure a England team of players whose roots are working class could provide that killer attitude English Rugby Union has lacked. =============== sixo_clock Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 7:41 pm Beautiful troubled Julie, Your players can improve simply by upping their work rate. But while you persist with Martin Johnson nobody will fancy your chances. The man should have been left to wallow in his glory. He is not astute enough in the craft of Rugby to coach or build a side that will win the penalty battle so you will have to rely on tries. Good luck there. Maybe you can get first prize after all. A Rugby playing Aussie boyfriend. Much more fun than those pasty, drippy-nosed Poms. This will get you out of the drab and dreary gray streets of London and into the bright sunshine of Paradise. Someone who I am sure will be happy to teach you new words to your Sweet Chariot or Jerusalem hymns. Instead of a fox we will provide a dingo (smarter by half) and as an added bonus you can heckle the kicker. By the way, snow has to be bought in cans, sleet is… I’m not sure now, ice is for drinks and frost bite is an ice cream, rain is an welcome impromptu car wash, overcast is a relief from the sun… need I go on. The new world beckons. =============== katzilla Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 6:11 pm Hey The Crowd, Thanks for the article. You say your not a a big Easter fan, what do you think of Thomas ‘the Tank engine’ Waldrom? Skill wise and Eligibility wise? He was always one of my favourite players, and I felt the only reason he didn’t get more of a go in NZ was due to his body shape (the contrast between him and a genetic freak like Spies couldn’t be more different, but I know which one i’d select in my team) If I was going to endure any former Kiwi coming back to bite us in a WC i’d hope it would be him. A totally under rated number 8, quick, strong with excellent ball handling skills and a side step to boot. =============== warrenexpatinnz Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 4:09 pm | In reply to Brett McKay. Brett no one without blind faith such as our Kiwi cousins can be assured of their team winning this far out and with too many injuries too occur. I would also suggest the weather may play more of a role than in previous RWC’s such as 2003 and 2007 as from memory last September in NZ was a shocker for rain, snow and although October improved it was still far from ideal. This should suit our Northerly rugby foes and I for one would be concerned if the Wallabies faced an ‘up for it’ Irish side in torrential rain as would an AB side against England or SA? Look at 2003, Wallabies beaten to a pulp by both SA and the ABs yet the Wallabies make the final against Dads Army. I bet that there would be no one, including our Kiwi cuzzies, that would back up their 100% committment right now by putting what they couldn’t afford to lose on their team to win? =============== Brett McKay Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 3:52 pm so yesterday, NZ fans weren’t confident, today England fans aren’t confident, and Wallaby fans have been saying NZ are specials for months.. Does ANYONE think their team CAN win?!? =============== Stripes Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 3:35 pm I think Ashton is now my new most hated player in the world, and hope to see him get smashed. That is all. =============== warrenexpatinnz Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 1:38 pm Good post and liked the comparisons. I for one will not completely discount the NH sides with Ireland being the big upsetter however anyone that writes off England or France in a knockout tournament will possibly lose some coin at the TAB. England played well against the Wallabies at Twickers, no excuses for the Wallabies there as they just got outplayed, if anything their performance mirrored that of Ireland v England. Yes France are playing terribly but they have won in NZ, yes albeit a couple of years back but I would never turn my back on a French side, just ask a couple of AB teams and what happened in the very dark past! I do expect that a SH side will win and although we all look with one eye at times I cannot select between the TNs sides at this point in time as we still have a very long, injury ravaging Super 15 to go plus the potential player heart breaking TNs which may trip up one or two certainty selections. I will lead with the Wallabies when picking from my heart as always. =============== Comrade Bear Submitted on 2011/04/07 at 11:45 am Is the current view of selectors to not include anyone in the WC squad that plays outside of England? or England France? I know it is early days, but by the end of the Super Rugby season and provided Danny Cipriani and Michael Lipman keep on growing and improving as they currently are – it would be very hard to ignore them – DC in particular (I reckon just being around Sterling Mortlock has already helped him enormously with regards to attitude and application). By the end of S15, both will have great experience: - of getting combinations working quickly with a relatively new playing group -> transfer this to the National Side?? - and better knowledge of playing against Southern Hemisphere players due to S15 - more acclimatised and comfortable with playing in NZ I definitely look forward to watching DC every week. I definitely don’t look forward to watching Toby Flood ever. But that is my one-eyed southern hemisphere take on things anyhow… I wish you well and hope you get your best 15/22 on the pitch where-ever they play.
katzilla
Roar Guru
Wow what happened to all the comments? Anyway Ben S I read your reply to my question about Thomas the tank before bed last night (couldn't log in to reply and I can now see why) Thanks. It seems that the one issue he had whilst in NZ still plagues him now, and that's physicality at the coal face. It's true he might not be as effective in a tight game as Easter. He is of course a solid tackler and a attacking player, but the grind might be a bit beyond him. Maybe a horses for courses situation for MJ? Easter v traditional forward sloggers? Waldrom v open play teams such as OZ?