The best rugby players also played league

'He played junior league in SW Sydney on weekends and attended a private school in town playing Union during the week. He says that the hard hitting in League made him a bit of a ‘hardman’ at school union because the private boys weren’t exposed to this.' That has been the main advantage for rugby players with a league background, along with defensive technique, though the differences between codes are not as pronounced as they once were in that area. I remember some Tah or Wallaby official a few years ago admitting that 17/18 y o leaguies were far better developed physical specimens than their rah rah counterparts, don't know if they still say that. I really think that the predominance of league in eastern Australia and the fact that many union reps had played it (and that most of them watched it in their spare time) gave the Wallabies a leg-up on the world stage before and just after professionalism arrived. The golden age of Aust league ran from the early 80s right thru to the early 00s and standards in both attack and defence were at all time highs - I read in the Tele before the 99 Cup a piece that interviewed Jon Davies, John Devereaux, Scott Gibbs and a few others who had played topline league and union and to a man they said league was tougher. Davies said that if they could be given two locks he would back the Kangaroos (the best team he had played in either code he reckoned) to beat all comers in the Cup. He actually waxed a bit lyrical about the Roos backs... 'they had all these backs who weighed 100 kilo but ran like the wind and had all the skills.. Daley, ET, Meninga, Fittler...' or words to that effect. Before and for a little while after professionalism, we had an edge bestowed by the dominant presence of the closest code to rugby in our heartland, a code in which we were unarguably the best in the world. The defensive systems, tackling technique, fitness and conditioning preparation and training drills, attacking innovations in running styles, types of kicks (Johns especially) filtered across from league to union and not just via players, but coaches too. I just think it is a prime reason why we were able to punch above our weight (in term of playing numbers and relative position of the code here), at least up until the turn of the century, Professionalism came in 1995 and within a few years of this, all major international sides were palpably fitter, faster and better prepared defensively, so the gap that we opened up with the aid of league had closed. With rugby now the far bigger game, with more money, I can't see league having the same level of impact as it has had in the past.

I generally believe the one dimensional aspects of League do little to develop a good Rugby player. Although your premise that at the junior level it may have benefit could be true. League does develop good defensive patterns.

Chris, I suggest you read Malcom Gladwells book "Outliers". My son plays both Rugby and Rugby League. He is a slightly above average athlete. No supper star. However he is one of the better Rugby Players (Both Codes). It has little to do with which code he plays. Its the fact that he is playing and training twice as much as his mates. I do agree though that there is "yin and yang" affect. trying the same skills in different enviroments. e.g Rugby beating the man in more confined space. League runner having more room so defenders have to track better. Good Article.

Rollo manning, Agree-Rugby has been ruined because it a contrived mass of penalties.It has itself wedged between Rugby(of old) and League and it isn't pretty. The joy of Rugby was the unbridled exhiliation of competing for possession and the resultant explosion of running backs-the game of old was boundless in the joy that it could bring to player and spectator alike but the game was ultimately player focused. I cannot believe the mess that the game is in yet few seem willing too, or are enable to see the cause of the situation.

Jock, I know (from previous posts on other topics) that you are upset about the way RU has gone...... but the reason that players are able to swap is not because the games have changed so much but because both codes now pay money. The guys playing RU & RL are all talented footballers and no doubt if there had never been the split guys like Nathan Hindmarsh would have been great RU forwards. Hell, we may even have a scrum now that doesn't get pushed off the paddock! Having said that I'd like to know in the era that you did play, because if it was pre '75 we were crap, being a 3rd tier RU nation at best. When you look at our win loss ratio from the '20s - 70's we were barely 30%, from memory. The Wallabies would have killed to have a few decent forwards in those days, who were all playing RL - getting paid. RU's problem was that it was so narrowminded that they almost killed the game in Aus allowing RL and Aust Rules to dominate. If you wanted the game as it was then they should have done more 105-110 years ago.

No doubt Nat, I've seen guys who are great, but my contention is that one helps the other. The journey is different, but each game develops different skills that can be utilised. The individual may develop the skills eventually but they can become 'more' complete by playing two or more codes. There are some well documented cases of a good/great player crossing codes and it being a disaster. Imagine if those players had played more codes. 1. their transition between codes may have been more successful, but they may also have had more strings to their bow when playing in their original code, making them a better player.

Having played with some future "greats" as a youngster, I can vouch for the fact that they were already great before they played for the other code. In other words, they weren't great because they played both rugby codes, but they were courted by both rugby codes at the junior levels because they were great at one code. Then when they finished school, they had to decide which contract to take up.

Sorry Jock but the question was why Super Rugby players do NOT go the league? The only ones that have gone from Super rugby to league are the ones who came from there in the fist place. The games are not the same - the spectator of league sees tries being scored while the union spectator sees penalties being scored more time than tries. In the first seven rounds of Super Rugby there were 212 tries scored and over 269 penalties kicked. In the NRL first six rounds there were 343 tries scored and 285 penalty goals kicked successfully. Enough said - league is about scoring tries - union has too many penalty goals being scored.

Seeing that Rugby and League are basically the same game now-so what? When I played Rugby,once you had turned a League player,they never went back. Now they cross backwards and forwards at will-further proof that there is not much difference.

Interesting discussion but how does it explain why so many RL players are coming over to Super rugby teams but NO rugby union players going to league. It gets back to being all about money surely. Does it matter what a kid played at school if when he reaches a senior age he can obtain a good fee for his talents. Playing RL for a couple of years seems enough to command a contract with a Super team (and maybe the ARU). The only Super rugby players to have gione to league are rthose that came from there in the first place - Sailor, Tuquiri, Rogers, Thorn, Gower, Gasnier and who else? But can anyone name a Super rugby player who has gone to RL? Prior to 1995 there were 57 Wallabies that went to league after representing Australia but since rugby went professional there have been NO Wallbies going to RL - except for the aforemnetioned that came from there in the first place.

PMK, get cracking on that article, you're dead right it would be a lot more interesting than the usual slagging off between the codes. :) I can only write as a guy raised on Aust Rules played a couple of Union friendlies but loves Union. My father-in-law played both RL and RU at school boy and club level (subbies) as a lock/loose forward and he reckons League was fun but Union was more fun as a forward.

I reckon both would have done a lot better if they'd played a bit more as kids. Secondly imagine if you grabbed a kid from Victoria who wasn't overly quick, wasn't overly tall and built like a keg but had exquisit hands and kicking skills with both feet (I remember a kid a year below me who fits the bill) as a Rugby coach you'd want him as a front rower, but for a set play, surprise play or in a scrambled defence those skills could be utilised effectively and the opposition would be wondering where the ball went.

Sheek, I think Weary Dunlop was also a pretty handy flanker. He also played Aust Rules, to what level I'm not sure, but he said something like that it was a good game but you just couldn't beat the physcality and tackling in Rugby that Aust Rules lacked. No doubt would have been pretty handy to have in any team though.

Is anyone going to write an article about what its like to play both? Reckon there is 1 out there as I among many other played both codes as a teen. Is more interesting than the rah rah vs mungo stereotype tripe that gets bandied about on the various sites. Personally I hated the up & back , up & back nature of League, where you fell asleep for 3 out of 6 plays. & the predictability of when the kick was coming. But the big+ was that you could organise & plan set moves. I guess it was dull as we weren't very sophisticated at 15 in terms of support play, offloads etc & as posters have commented bad defence in league is inexcusible....& sticks out like a sore thumb... Could go on & on, but I liked the randomness & flow of union & the complexity of the constant realignment plus if you played in the pack you were always in the game. Anyway maybe I should write it....who knows...

I think the Thornett brothers - John, Ken & Dick - played junior rugby league before concentrating on union at high school. All 3 were wonderfully athletic & versatile players, noted for their mobility, excellent handling & high workrate. John (b.35) played his whole senior career in union, becoming one of our most celebrated Wallaby captains. He started out as a flanker, then worked his way through the second row to prop. You couldn't do that today! Ken (b.37) was a fullback who could also play equally well in the three-quarters. Frustrated at having two other teenage sensations against him at fullback - Terry Curley & Jim Lenehan - he went to league early, & became a legend at the Parramatta Eels, as well as playing for the Kangaroos. Dick (b.40) was obviously the star in a champion family. A backrower & lock of tremendous fire & energy, he represented Australia as both a Wallaby & Kangaroo, as well as in water polo. Ray Price (b.53) played rugby league as a kid. His dad had played for North Sydney Bears. It certainly showed in the way he played the game, fearing no-one & nothing. I think league offers some advantages to a guy contemplating playing union in the future, even in today's world. Firstly, I think league toughens young players up much more quickly. By nature it's a more confronting sport to play. So you tend to toughen up as a matter of course. Secondly, with fewer players on the pitch, & with the repetitive play the ball, there is time to work on running angles, which can come in very handy when playing union. Generally speaking, union doesn't offer the same tough 'rites of passage' that you get in league, or with union in NZ or SA. We simply don't have the depth at present. In conclusion, you can be a champion without playing league, but I reckon the experience can only help. If I had a son, I would certainly be keen to get him playing league at some stage during his evolution before (hopefully) settling on union.

Jason Little Rod Davies

Or take it further .... one wonders how someone like .... I dunno, Karmichael Hunt or Israel Folau might go at AFL. YIKES! Sorry - couldn't help myself. I always wondered how Paul Kelly would go playing League or Rugby. I'd have thought that he'd be a fantastic open side flanker, his work rate and utter enthusiasm were so good. I think he played League as a kid in Wagga Wagga.

Thanks for the reply Timmypig, I might say from the start that this started out as a response to the article by Sheek about Michael and James O'Connor and was upgraded by the moderators so may look a little out of context or lacking depth, but I'm glad it's there otherwise I may not have got around to writing the article. On your question about forwards, there are none that spring to mind instantly for me either. A couple of current players have made successful transitions between codes, but I think they started in union, went to league and came back. As far as my hypothesis goes I think it is likely to cross all football codes. As I point out in the article and Saliosi says below, good footballers are good footballers - no doubt. My contention, and I don't know how you could prove it, is that playing both (or many soccer and AFL included) from an early age improves awareness and provides a greater diversity of skills. For example, Jamie Soward may have been going to be a great 1/2 in RL, but would he be as good if he hadn't played soccer, developed his kicking skills and visual awareness? Danny Cipriani is apparently another good soccer player, with great foot skills (apart from last week). Another example, at a much lower level of the 'balance' that I believe the two codes brings is Anh Doh (the comedian). He played junior league in SW Sydney on weekends and attended a private school in town playing Union during the week. He says that the hard hitting in League made him a bit of a 'hardman' at school union because the private boys weren't exposed to this. You get the feeling that they probably learned something from this 'Leaguie', he brought something new to the school game. Hence the balance I'll look into the forwards though!

Good footballers are good footballers, its as simple as that look at the amount of good juniour rugby union players are playing in the nrl at the moment Benji Marshall Cooper Cronk Sika Manu Juniour Sau Jared Warea Hargreaves Martin Kennedy Joe Tomane Matt Duffie Daniel Conn Josh Hoffman Dylan Farrell Dean Gagai There's hundreds in both codes just look at the warriors u/20 side last year

I'm fairly sure Topo Rodriguez never played Rugby League, Chris ... It's an impressive list of backs you've put up. I wonder how many 'great' forwards, tight five in particular, played Rugby League as a kid. A lot of the country kids would have played, but just not talked about it (pre 1996), in the old Rugby Saturday, Rugby League Sunday set up that a lot of kids in the bush did. But any examples surely would not have been at any serious level (ie junior 'rep' / district / zone). Roarers - your mission if you choose to accept it: find a list of tight five Rugby players who played Rugby League as a kid. For I truly have no idea. Chris as an aside, do you extend your hypothesis to those Rugby playing countries where Rugby League doesn't exist? Does this become a matter of 'all ball sports' or is it particular to League - Rugby ?