Why All Blacks won't win World Cup 2011

By AdamS / Roar Guru

What are the odds of the All Blacks not winning the Rugby World Cup this year? As we draw closer to the big day, both, the press and the pundits ramp up their predictions.

Many of the predictions we hear about games and the tournament itself are accompanied by a series of arcane numbers, taking the familiar form of a price, a price just like you would see on a carton of milk at your local corner store.

Amazingly, that price purports to actually indicate the probable outcome of the match or tournament! Who would have thought such a thing possible?

Where do these numbers come from? Who is it that puts out these lists of, in some cases, seeming ordained results?

Is it a small bespectacled man, locked in a back room, painstakingly going over past results, using secret formula to determine the result?

Is it rooms full of state-of-the-art computer servers, cold and calculating, running all permutations of hundreds of factors a million times before emotionlessly deciding your team’s fate?

While any of these options might seem comforting, appealing even, or perhaps appalling, the shocking truth is they just make them up.

That’s right, your national team’s chance of success in bringing the Rugby World Cup home in 2011 has been pulled right out of some bookmaker’s smelly, nether regions and slapped right up there on the interwebs for all to see.

Betting on an event, years into the future, when you cannot possibly know the team makeup or future form is largely guesswork.

A price is thrown out with low limits and the bookies sit back and let the public do their work for them. The price changes due to the weight of money being bet on each outcome.

In the early stages, most of this money is what is called ‘mug money’. It is largely people betting with their heart on their favourite team, regardless of the value that bet delivers or people with little understanding, following what they perceive to be the sure thing.

As the bookies shorten the price, this attracts even more money as the mugs chase a team being backed, into impossible favourites.

This is best demonstrated by the prices on the last Rugby World Cup. The All Blacks were $1.25 favourites, a year out from the event.

What these markets tend to deliver is terrible value on the favourite and terrific value on the likely chances. Look at the market below, if we played this Rugby World Cup 19 times, France would win only once.

According to the odds, France have probably, a one in four chance of making the final, as do England.

Let’s take a look at the current outright market to win the Rugby World Cup 2011 and see just how smelly it is and why exactly it is flat out wrong.

In looking at this, we will assume that the pools throw up no surprises and the knockout stage is reached as expected. We have, in the market:

All Blacks: $1.70
Wallabies: $3.60
Springboks: $9.00
England: $15.00
France: $19.00

Now, this market has been around for years. While creating it, the bookmakers looked at rankings at the time, form and the fact that the tournament is in New Zealand and firmly ensconced the All Blacks as favourites.

That the All Blacks are at home matters, but not as much as you would think. The Wallabies and the Boks were roughly equal second and third at around $5.

As we have neared the actual kickoff and are looking at the most recent results and team selections, the Wallabies have firmed considerably, the All Blacks have drifted out slightly and the Boks have moved way back.

To win the Rugby World Cup after the pool stage, you must win three separate, two-horse races.

In the final, you are facing a team that has progressed and beaten teams just like you have. Ultimately, with our assumption of pool progression in place, what these tournament prices represent is the multiplied value of the head-to-head match price for the quarter-final, semi-final and final.

Multiplied, not added, the odds of winning game one, times the odds of winning game two, times the odds of winning game three.

If we assume you went into each game as an equal chance this would be 2*2*2 = $8.00 or 7 to 1.

Using this process in the last Rugby World Cup market for the All Blacks ($1.25) would mean that they would have to be less than $1.10, or a 90 percent chance of winning each of the three knockout games including the final against the other best side.

A patently ridiculous situation, no side has ever been so dominant.

This time round, the All Blacks likely face Wales, the Boks and then the Wallabies in order.

What would the likely prices for these games be? I would suggest something like; $1.05 versus Pumas, $1.40 versus the Springboks and should they meet the Wallabies in the final perhaps $1.60.

The multiplier of these three games (1.1*1.4*1.65) gives us a ‘To Win the Rugby World Cup’ price of $2.35 or roughly a 40 percent chance of the All Blacks taking home Bill. At best that is, as these prices are probably somewhat generous.

Hardly the absolute lock being touted, the All Blacks chances of winning are less than a coin toss.

Putting it another way, it is therefore most likely that the All Blacks will not win the World Cup. There it is, the harsh reality.

The Crowd Says:

2011-09-27T04:41:31+00:00

JOSHW

Guest


Take into consideration the players, which on paper the all blacks have in my opinion their strongest team ever assembled and have home advantage. Their last world cup win being in 1987, the greatest rugby nation on earth will want it more than ever and they deserve it more than ever as they have cosistantly been ranked number one in the world for decades now!

2011-09-10T05:36:14+00:00

gary

Guest


my prediction is the wallabies will lose a pool game, end up 2nd in that pool and play samoa in quarters, samoa will kick there arse again, and end their wc. the final will be a replay of the last wc in NZ AND THIS AINT COMING FROM SONNY WOOL

2011-09-08T19:46:53+00:00

bradluen

Guest


The assumption in the calculation is the Wallabies make the final. The chance of the Wallabies getting past both Wales (or maybe even SA) and England or France seems close to a coin flip. If the ABs face England or France in the final, their odds won't be close to 1.6. Similarly the Boks might end up on the Wallabies' side of the draw, or get rolled in the quarters by Ireland. The All Blacks will "probably" have a substantially easier path to the cup than the one you've outlined.

2011-09-08T11:03:20+00:00

katzilla

Roar Guru


Just backed that option with a few spare bob. Its like insurance about being too upset should we lose, and money i would pay in a heartbeat if i thought we were going to win.

2011-09-08T10:22:29+00:00

jaysper

Guest


damned good article, even if I dont agree with all of it :-)

2011-09-08T09:06:01+00:00

Moaman

Guest


I hope u r right Blinky :-)

AUTHOR

2011-09-08T08:28:36+00:00

AdamS

Roar Guru


I make the Wobblies at ~ $4.00, so the bookies shorting them a tad. Vs Wales 1.15 Vs England (or France) $1.50. My odds compiler makes this 1.30 but I don't think we have seen the consistency from the wobblies to justify this. Vs the AB's in the final ~2.30. So 1.1 * 1.5* 2.3 = $4.00 ish. Boks have arguably the hardest pool and the hardest path. I think they are realistically under priced so not good value. France and England represent great value and an excellent opportunity to arb out into a winning position come semi time.

2011-09-08T07:27:20+00:00

ilikedahoodoogurusingha

Guest


Or Metallica.....the album cover is the right colour!!! :-D :-D

AUTHOR

2011-09-08T07:23:58+00:00

AdamS

Roar Guru


Something has to fill the dead space, they sat on this for a day, I'm surprised it was posted myself :) Nevermind, only a few days before we have something real to discuss.

AUTHOR

2011-09-08T07:17:34+00:00

AdamS

Roar Guru


Different methodology Jeremy, similar result. I feel vindicated! In answer to your post in the other thread, the answer probably simpler rather than more complicated. There is a slim chance it will go balls up for the giants in the pool stages, so with the exception of France I'm happy to ignore the pools and look just at the knockout stages. The risk of ruin for the top seed in each pool is very similar. Recent form and a judgement of player strength and tactics are much more relevant than historical win rates, as nice as some of them seem. What a different team did 4 or 5 yrs ago is of little relevance. I make the golden wobblies at $4.00

2011-09-08T07:11:11+00:00

Sage

Guest


Can't believe I'm actually agreeing with you snobby. I'm sick of them too (no offence AdamS) and this one has got WAY too much response. Some very dodgy hypothesis' being thrown around

2011-09-08T06:38:08+00:00

Blinky Bill of Bellingen

Guest


God this damn count down for the kickoff is driving me nuts. I think in our heart of hearts we know tht the AB's are such favoutites that the reality is the rest of us are actually just playing for second place. Of course I could be wrong..........again. Carn the Wallabies!!!!!!!!!!!

2011-09-08T06:03:27+00:00

Brad

Guest


If NZ doesn't win it I would rather no one won it ;o)

2011-09-08T04:49:13+00:00

Snobby Deans

Guest


God, I can't wait for us to get into the actual Cup and hopefully see the end of these inane articles. Someone will win the cup and 19 teams won't.

2011-09-08T02:20:08+00:00

jumpers

Roar Rookie


Wat aload of rubbish! Next we'll be told that Hitler is going to win Wimbledon! There are only really 5 teams in the race and they are the ABs, Wannabes, the Boks, England and France! It would be fitting if it ends up an ABs verses the Wannabes final!

2011-09-08T01:38:53+00:00

jeremy

Roar Pro


Adam - interesting read. http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/fan-central/5578864/All-Blacks-at-50-per-cent-bet-on-it

2011-09-08T01:11:07+00:00

Sprigs

Guest


Excellent, Tissot Time. Change your name to Tennyson.

2011-09-08T00:52:29+00:00

Team Taniwha

Guest


Forsyth Barr, investment company recently ran a calculation that took a number of things into consideration to work out chances of ABs winning the rwc - outlined here: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/fan-central/5578864/All-Blacks-at-50-per-cent-bet-on-it Their result, the AB's had a 43% chance of winning it or 2/5, which is not that far out from the 40% odds AdamS gives. Their study also gives the Aussies and Boks about a 1 in 5 chance. So betting rest of world seems like a good bet, where as individual teams not so much.

2011-09-08T00:11:40+00:00

snowman

Guest


You have eloquently explained why bookies make money, but not predicted the outcome of the WC

2011-09-08T00:11:40+00:00

WQ

Guest


You know the best thing about a World Cup, Bookies don't play in them!!!

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