Wales lose the war after battling bravely

"In eight close Tests between the countries post-isolation, the Welsh Dragons are yet to come out on top against the South Africans." You sure about that? Cardiff 1999? 29-19?

Capital, Thinus Delport said much the same as you when he featured on BBC Wales' Scrum V programme. He thought the Bok replacements were crucial to the way the game played out. Bismarck du Plessis took the ball on while Francois Hougaard, with scrum half skills, was another option to clear the base of the ruck to defuse Welsh pressure.

And I have watched the second half twice now - it is really obvious.

Chris During the match I couldn't help but think that the welsh side lost something. It started after the try by the 8, their halfback in particular was runnig on high octane energy. The 10 minutes after that try some of the forwards looked listless, and the 9 played without definition. The base of the ruck was like watching the Brumbies this year - slow, disorganised, lacking leadership. And when the Boks rung the changes, it had an immediate impact on their performance and energy. Gatland missed a great opportunity to close the match by changing a number of his tiring forwards. It was a similar criticism that was levelled at Deans last year, that I disagreed with at the time - but seeing the welsh in this situation, it was so obvious that the forwards were tiring and needed a spark. Unfortunately, IMO the turning point came when Broussow counter rucked and stole the ball - due to lack of direction and decisiveness, and the rest is history. This game was ripe to be won - on the park and by the coaching staff. They both need to accept that this is the case. And yes I thought the welsh were excellent, and with a welsh gf yelling and screaming during the match - somewhat of a sympathetic eye. But like the Wallabies, they need to learn to believe and win.

Agree completely, also a lot of teams have key players missing but not having Henson, Priestland, Gethin Jenkins and Ryan Jones limits the options a bit. Not an excuse by any means but it does limit Gatland's options a bit as those are probably first choice players so their loss highlight a lack of strength in depth still for some positions.

Might be good to inject some fresh legs during the final 20 too......

Scarlet I think the key to beating the aussies for the welsh will be the breakdown. If the welsh can flood the breakdown like they did against the boks it will fluster cooper. Im actually very excited for that game if it happens.

OK, thanks, I take your point and am happy to disagree on good terms. As far as beating Australia, it would make me very happy too. The weak point in the Wallabies has to be Quade Cooper who has sometimes appeared mentally fragile if things don't go right, rather like Carlos Spencer a few times. Both are very gifted players who have the tendency to buckle mentally. (I figure that after having had a skirmish with a South African I may as well niggle the rest of the SH!)

Scarlet Im not trying to offend any 1. It is just my personal opinion about the welsh rugby team. I do believe the boks do have the players to beat any team on their day, however i personally believe SA are very vulnerable and are there for the taking for teams that have usually been dominated by the boks. They are not on the same level as NZ and AUS For the past couple years the SH teams have dominated world rugby and I just feel wales would probably lose at home to the big 3 and wouldnt have a chance against any of the SH teams in their own backyard. That is why most SH fans including myself dont give wales that much credit. The game was fantastic and i truly believe wales should have won. Wales is getting better but to gain the respect of top rugby nations they need results. Thats when people will start saying wales outplayed south africa instead of saying south africa played badly. But lets see, maybe wales will suprise me and give the aussies a hiding!! boy that will make me happy :)

OK, my view is that SA started really strongly and scored well in the opening exchanges and continued to dominate for another 20 minutes. However, their failure to score again enabled Wales to regroup and show their newly developed strength in defence. From that point the next 40 minutes was all Wales allowing them to take the lead - deservedly, playing very good rugby off a strong forward platform. The substitutions were the turning point with Bismark, Alberts and that ugly little bugger Hougard with the nasty haircut up the tempo of the game. This allowed SA to score decisively and ultimately win the game. Did they deserve to? Not in my opinion when even Steyn agreed that the Hook penalty was good. However, Wales did not respond to the change of pace in the game quickly enough, but that will come with experience. To say that Wales is a second tier team nowadays is arrogant and ill informed as their performances in recent years have been respectable against all teams. They still don't have enough wins against SH teams, but they will, based on their development as a team over the last five years or so. They lost to the World Champions who fielded a virtually full strength team by one point in a cracking match, but instead of praising that a number of people just trundle out the same old crap that might make it seem that they have a chip on their shoulder. What irritates me is the arrogant myopia seen in a number of comments from a group of posters, who seem to be the same group each time. In another thread there were a series of complimentary comments about the game, without any sniping or personal jibes, quite grown up really. As I said in an earlier post that time will tell how well they do overall as this is a difficult Pool, but hopefully they will continue to play with verve and will leave the tournament with more respect than before.

Scarlet Not at all, i was giving my opinion to ur post and was waiting to see what ur take on it was. Ben S instead of adding his take on it decided to give a snide comment.

What escapes me is why some posters make aggressive responses. Why can't it remain a well mannered, good natured debate where there is a basic respect for the right of the individual to have an opinion. Instead it all too often degenerates into aggression or rudeness. Relax and enjoy the debate is my suggestion. There are multiple points of view about the same match yet Nicksa seems to be dogmatic that his view is the only one that counts.

England weren't really beaten soundly were they. SA couldn't buy a try that day, which is the problem now. They won because England couldn't combat their lineout due to the loss of their 10 and best lineout jumper. That doesn't really compare to the Wales game. It's oranges and apples, and totally lacking grace.

Ben S Maybe next time read my post properly before u add your 2 cent comment. The point i was trying to make is that SA were ripe for the picking and any good team would have smashed them. When england were missing all those players they were beaten soundly by the boks at HOME! There is the dif between wales and top teams. Wales cant beat top opposition away nor can they beat top opposition when they have everything right going for them. Hence SH fans tend to underestimate wales and rightly so...

Whoops, sorry Brian! How do you spell embarassed.

You know, when England lost Christ Ashton, Tom Croft and Toby Flood versus SA in November I didn't hear one South African make reference to that fact. What a surprise we hear it now. No grace before the game, and none after...

Sixo'clock - You're not related to Gary Ella, are you? These British names must all sound so much the same.....

Scarlet I have to disagree with u. Wales are not a bad team but they are certainly not a good team. Aus and NZ would have slaughtered the boks in that game and many other good team would have beaten them. The welsh were made to look a lot better than what they are. The bok game plan is based around tactical kicking, strong set pieces, great breakdown game and strong direct runners. Du preez and morne steyn kicked horribly. The boks were pinned in their own half for most of the game. Matfield stole a couple of line outs from the welsh but was injured early which means the boks didnt have an exceptional line out for the whole game. Bakkies and bismark were missed and the boks lost ball at the break down over and over again! spies was also horrible which meant the breakdown was a losing battle for the boks. when bismark and alberts came on it made a HUGE difference. With out possesion the boks couldnt gain meters with their big runners So what we see here that the strenghts of the boks had been totally neutralised due to off form players and bad selections for starting line up. They won in every department and made the boks tackle nearly double as much as what they did yet the wlesh still lost... Well done to the welsh they were very competitive but really they dont deserve to be called a good team. They constantly lose at home to weakened tired SH teams, so why should they be respected? The 1 good thing is that the welsh will take alot of confidence from this loss. They are getting better but nothing to rave about yet. Springboks need to sort their game out if they are going to be a threat. Nice to see they defended like devils.

Touché!

Duly noted, Jerry.