It's just not right to include New Zealand

Rugby bet them both. 3.2 Million watched the Semi final of RWC in OZ. 2 million watched in NZ. Offical numbers for NRL final in NZ were 500K.

So as South Australia was not set up as a Penal Colony, were they any less Australian than New Zealand at the time of Federation? The paternal attitude you allude to cuts both ways and Australians are equally welcomed across the ditch. In fact it is to Australia's economic benefit as those kiwis that do come across are educated and participate in society with a higher per capital work participation rate than Australian's (or any other ethnic group) themselves. There is an economic loss to New Zealand that is Australia's gain. When kiwis arrive in Australia they are not entitled to social welfare or even to vote. What you get is a workforce that is educated, motivated, good English skills, as well as similar cultural values than Australia (not to mention when they play up they get booted out). There is a bit of ribbing both ways but kiwis do not hold Australia or Australians with "great contempt".

Betamax Very PC of you, affirming Boomshanka's equally PC post and the diplomatic sacred cow i.e. Aust NZ relationships Pathos may be re assuring for some but I personally prefer to deal in reality.

Props Boomshanka. Good post.

AR We are the only country huh LOL!!!! You obviously need to spend a little more time researching the subject.Ever heard of PNG where the code of rl is the national pasttime.With due respect maybe research is not your forte.Especially when on one post you had metro Tv ratings inclding u20 and NSW cup,then realised it was incorrect.

We were founded as a penal colony one criteria for NZ avoiding any joining at the hip with the advent of the new Federation in the first place. NZ were founded as a sort of pious religious outpost, a hang up that continues to be evidenced in their sanctimonious attitudes towards Australia today. In substantiating the foundation for this pious NZ attitude, Samuel Marsden the flogging pastor, departed these fatal shores for NZ for that very reason, seeking refuge in that more civilized colony. There are numerous reasons as to why NZ is not a state of Oz and to pretend it could or should be is a ludicrous notion. NZ was influenced, indigenous aside, by the English status quo and puritanical lowland Scots, whereas we were influenced by the English status quo, convict rabble and a huge Irish diaspora who were very much marginalized. These early influences did help define the attitudes that shaped our respective countries and that they still do is a moot point indeed. I am not saying there are no similarities between Australians and NZ'ers however I am saying that these are sentimentally overstated and that NZ'ers are no more akin to Australians than many other nationalities around the globe. I also believe that due to our paternal attitude towards Kiwis they are afforded special treatment such that they assume state like status while maintaining their sovereign identity, an exception you would have to agree because no other country does. The question is whether or not you agree that this is ok or not and I simply think it incredulous that we make such an exception with a nation that actually holds us in great contempt. I know a number of Australians who call NZ home, who have moved their out of a real love for and off that country. They all barrack for the All Blacks as testament to their devotion, whereas NZ'ers mostly come here to improve their financial status, whinging all the way to the bank in the main and would never support an Australian anything over a Kiwi one. This is a fact and does highlight one of many inherent differences in the Australian and New Zealand character. You are of course free to delude yourself otherwise.

Obviously reading's not your strong point. I said given we're the only country that prefer League to Rugby it SHOULD be Australia by 10 ten tries... I'm dealing with it fine.

I would beg to differ with you Australian Rules - I currently live in Uganda and play Union as it is the only contact sport over here (and it keeps some of my skills up), and everyone who has travelled to Australia and been to the State of Origin in QLD says they have never been to a better spectacle, this coming from guys who are Unionites through and through. They would never admit to League being a better sport (and I'm not starting something with the Unionites I will be up at 6am to watch the Wallabies play in an African pub), but they say they have never been to an atmosphere like that ever before. And, yes, these include guys who have seen Man Utd vs Arsenal @ Old Trafford, or England vs Scotland at Twickenham.

Here we go again..a member of the cheersquad telling people they should be proud of Aussie Rules.... Please tell me why someone who has no cultural ties to a game ,was raised on another sport ,should suddenly be proud of some sport that they find a fumbling bumbling mess.& that person lives in the Northern states where the majority of the population live.. You cannot tell people to be proud of something they have no ties to ...is it that hard to understand. Geez you dont know much about the RL world cup do you...please look up who is the current champions...& it isnt AUS by ten tries. No one professes it to be some huge international event ...but it is an international game ..deal with it.

Republican Our Nations were founded on very different colonial foundations and principles. Really? Wasn't New Zealand part of the colony of New South Wales until 1841? It was then governed by leaders such as Grey (former governor of South Australia) and Bowen (former Governor of Queensland, who then went onto Govern Victoria). New Zealand was also influenced by Victorian diggers who travelled across the ditch after the easy gold had run out here. The very diggers that, through the battles of the Eureka Stockade, were at the centre of what is claimed to be the birthplace of Australian democracy. Your assertion that New Zealand was built on different Colonial foundations and principles is utter rubbish. In fact if one looks back, New Zealand could have embraced Victorian Rules as its national sport (why it didn’t may be a subject for a different article). I accept that New Zealand has different physical and cultural influences (for example, Aborigines were only counted on the Census in Australia in 1971), however people from both countries still share a unique reciprocal agreement which sees free movement between the two nations (akin to moving interstate). This allows Australians and New Zealanders to work, live and enjoy the unique lifestyle that each other’s country offers. I know many Australians living in New Zealand who still call Australia home (as you allude to the other way) whilst "being afforded so much privilege". There is no need to be naturalised or pledge allegiance to one another’s flag as we live, pay taxes and (with the exception of Australia) vote. Personally I find the whole embrace “the Australian way” akin to a “Welcome to Australia, now sit down and shut up”. Each culture brings with it new experiences and values that we can all share and benefit from. Enjoy

Boomshanka Meet reality. You are either oblivious to or in denial of the historical cultural differences between our countries. NZ shares no more affinity with us than do numerous other countries that share a veneer of Brit heritage. Both our nations were founded on very different colonial foundations and principles with dramatically different physical, social, cultural and economic influences. NZ only ever flirted with Federation and were never seriously going to sign up which was a good thing too, for both them and us, since it was always going to be a fraught relationship based on expedient advantage as far as NZ was and still is concerned. There is NO country on earth in truth with so little regard for Australia which is evidenced by the sentiment expressed by many expats who will NEVER call Australia home despite being afforded so much privilege compared with other migrants who embrace this country with real affection.

We need to include NZ. They have an NRL team too you know.

Ray, With the way you've carried on in this forum, i'm glad you have no connection to Australia.

This whole wall is a bit ridiculous but I thought I'd respond to db swannie's claim that: "it kills the AFL cheersquad that they have no international presence". That couldn't be more off point db. I for one could care less about it - our game is by name and nature Australian Rules Football. A unique, indigenous game that (regardless of where you live in this country) everyone Aussie should be proud of. Overseas visitors come to the MCG to see games where there's 100,000 people absolutely screaming and say they've never seen passion like it. Do the Irish wish Gaelic football was more international? Do the Americans wish American Football was more international? or Canadians wish Ice Hockey was more international? No, they love it the way it is. The pride that I think most AFL supporters feel is based on the fact that from such hunble beginnings our own national game is easily the most professionally run comp in the country, the gate takings and crowd numbers dwarf every other code, TV Rights are easily the biggest, ratings are (arguably...but I won't start this one) the biggest and there are more AFL Club members than every other code put together. They are the facts and Aussie Rules supporters don't wish for anything else. However, I do find it amusing how much NRL fans inflate the prominence of League around the world. For all countries that play both League and Union, Australia is the only country where League is bigger. That's a bit embarrassing I think. Boasting about having a League World Cup...seriously, Australia should win every game in that tournament by about 10 tries. I'll accept that the code is big in a couple of Pacific Islands but generally speaking, apart from Australia and NZ, the rest of the world couldn't care less about League...arguing that it's some major player on the international sporting scene is just delusional.

Count your own ratings and we'll count ours. We dont care about AFL nor do we fear them but its obvious that some sports fans in NSW and Queensland have a problem with it. We dont have a problem with union in NZ at least we know when other sports beat us in the ratings here but its ok. You win some and lose some.

Ange, AFL has more players and clubs in Samoa than rugby league. Your be surprise to know that AFL is played in about the same amount of countries as rugby league. Dont be a hater.

Your obviously dont live in NZ. You must be mistaken the rugby world cup with the NRL final that was only shown live on Sky TV.

rachel ro You are an exception In my experience. The only time NZ'ers are keen to openly state this sentiment is when there is something to gain from it. If this is the case then why do you think NZ is a sovereign country as opposed to a state of this country. There are many good reasons why NZ never got on board and I only trust it remains thus, because any joining at the hip would only be to advantage NZ expedience in this respect. There is little if no affinity on the part of most NZers towards this country but there is an awful lot of envy and contempt - to be sure. We do offer Kiwis the opportunity to raise their socio economic bar so to speak and have for a long time now and thats the long and the short of it really

@ ANGE, not quite right, at last count around around 60,000 people play Australian football O/S, minute in the scheme of things, but a growing market, and a good potential sporting export market for this country. http://www.worldfootynews.com/

Ray It's because the TV market in Australia hasn't matured. Remember this a country that can't standardise rail gauges. Bananas are $11.99/kg (thanks to protectionism being alive and well) and lets not even talk about Apples. In New Zealand you can pretty much watch what you want when you want. OK you may have to pay for it, but contrast this with Australia where the NRL competition (and other sport) is hoarded across most of the continent. ie Channel Nine after paying for the rights to broadcast the game, and forking out for production costs then go on to not show games or delay them to after midnight outside of New South Wales and Queensland. In the NRL's case they do not even onsell the live rights to pay TV, therefore the earliest one can (legally) watch rugby league on a Friday night is near midnight in a so called world city like Melbourne. Protectionism is the Australian way and that extends to sport, hence the rubbish that is AFL is shown with no competing code against it in its heartland. Is it any wonder it rates this way! TV Executives are also on the AFL protectionist bandwagon, so when it comes to make the decision to show what sport and when, its typically league that losses out. We then get AFL clowns purporting to have the number one rating sport despite being obvious to blind man freddy that the rugby league is hidden outside of two states. Hence New Zealand figures (in the middle of a world cup) are relevant particularly as the Warriors (and the U20's with the Vulcans) qualified for the big games. The rugby world cup is being treated in the same way. Check out; http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/nine-looks-after-friends-to-delay-rugby-opener-20110907-1jxw8.html Trust this helps?