Adelaide beat Gamba Osaka 2-0 in ACL

Matsu If you checked out these boards more regularly you would realise that there is an enormous amount of respect for the J-league and Japanese football. You would also realise that for every reasoned comment there is a biased, irrational and emotive comment. To help you out a bit, Australian football is under constant ridicule from 3 other football codes in this country and in particular on these boards. This has led to Football fans being fairly argumentative and militantly defensive. Regardless of that I see nothing in any of this debate that has caused you to be so sensitive, and for mine your generalisations of Australians and your alleged insights into our culture are far more insulting than anything coming from the Australian football supporters, and to then threaten us by suggesting we are not welcome in Asia is well over the top in my opinion. You are most welcome here and I personally appreciate your contribution, but if you are going to bother you really need to grow some thicker skin or just forget about. By the way, really enjoyed your article on the Asian Cup final, see you on the terraces!

"When Urawa Reds displayed a banner in their match with FC Tokyo at the end of 2010, saying “Enjoy your Tokyo Derby next year” (implying that the team would get relegated), it not only made the front pages of all the sports tabloids" That's probably a good example because if, for instance, that had happened between two Australian clubs, the other eight clubs supporters would mostly likely have applauded the supporter group with the banner for having deployed such a bon mot. Certainly there would have been not an iota of media attention. Personally, I laughed when I read it. I can see your point regarding the cultural dissonance. Personally, I would hope that Australia brings more to the AFC table than just a greater exposure to the kind of abrasive interplay that the top Asian nations are going to increasingly find as we develop and keep surprising nations in the World Cup. After all, it won't be long before Australia, Japan and South Korea move from the World Cup novelty to danger status for many of the the mid and even upper-tier Euro teams. I did see someone on the Japan board on BigSoccer mention the booing of that goal and frankly was taken quite aback by the thought. Really hadn't even considered it. (Hopefully, if Perth manage to get into the ACL next year, similar circumstances do not occur, the Shed Boys here are rather ... coarser than the Mariner home end and I'd hate to see us on the end of an international incident). Appreciated your thoughts on the matter. I try and seek out other opinions on the situation here, since its never good to go on in an echo-chamber.

Da Silva - As Ive said on several occasions in the past, this is a case of cultural dissonance that really, honestly, is wearing out Australia's welcome in Asia. Regarding your question about competitive banter, it is a pretty standard fact that Asians dislike the sort of direct, in-your-face confrontation that you find pretty standard fare in Australia, the US and most of Europe. Koreans probably are the most accepting of that sort of confrontation; Japanese, probably the least. There is indeed a great deal of competitive ribbing between teams in Japan, but it has to be done in good taste. For example last year Gamba had a big banner display for the Osaka derby showing their past trophy achievements and a huge banner saying "What You Got?" But there is a very strict line on when good-natured teasing goes over the line into unacceptable insult. When Urawa Reds displayed a banner in their match with FC Tokyo at the end of 2010, saying "Enjoy your Tokyo Derby next year" (implying that the team would get relegated), it not only made the front pages of all the sports tabloids - it also was so universally criticised that the president of the Reds was forced to make a formal, public apology and vow to make sure the fans were disciplined, and warned never to "go over the line" again. Im sure most people reading this would find it ludicrous if the CCM president were asked to make a formal apology to Nagoya for the fact that fans booed their goal. But the truth is (having read a lot of message boards last night), most people in Japan viewed that as "over the line". Dont take this the wrong way, because Im not trying to say "you HAVE TO change your behaviour." Nevertheless, [em] IF you want other football fans in Asia to accept Australia as a welcome and valued member of the confederation [/em] (and nobody said you ought to want that . . . .), then yes, I do think that people need to tone down that sort of "light-hearted banter". For me, its a bit easier to understand and accept. After all, I was born in the US, and have only really "been Japanese" for about 20 years. Nevertheless I find that I have less and less tolerance for that sort of thing, and Im quite certain that if a "real Japanese person" experienced the same sort of "good-natured" and "light-hearted" banter, they would simply disappear from the site for good, with nothing but a permanent impression that Australians are a bunch of nasty verbal thugs. (cue horde of angry replies bashing me for sticking my nose where it doesnt belong: )

Nathan, Thanks for the comments and the email. Will respond privately a bit later. The final paragraph? Paul Simon: Rhythm of the Saints - Track 1 Sorry, sometimes wen I try to communicate musically, I forget how old I am . . . . (^c,^)

Matsu, fussball is not behaving any different to the way he is treating J-league then the way he is treating other clubs that are not Melbourne Victory (in fact this is pretty mild comparison) It's just a case of light-hearted competitve and bias banter trying to one up your own team whilst downplaying and disrespecting your rivals and competitive club.. It's just this time because this is the ACL and no Melbourne Victory are there, the australian clubs are now his team and the rival clubs are now asian opposition. It's simply a case of battling for your club in between the game. People could just accept the win and leave it like that but where's the fun in that. In Japan, isn't there competitive and bias bantering between J-league clubs?

Btw, read the link - well written and loved the comment about Cahill. Was good to read about what that match meant to Japan.

Oh my, is Tristan planning something? I understand what you mean about reserve players; I haven't personally compared the team lists, you see, so I just went on what Fuss said regarding Gamba and Nagoya. And do understand, Gamba and Nagoya are my two favorite J-League teams so I'm not inclined to badmouth them by any means. Was really happy to see Jesus Kennedy come back to play, wish he had been the one who scored actually, haha. Five players out is obviously pretty significant, though I'm not clear on their reasons for being in. Hearing Gamba is on such a downward spiral isn't good; I'd seen similar comments about them on BigSoccer so you're obviously not alone in that assessment. Sorry to see that we've had such a confrontational run, though. It's a bit unfortunate, the Roar is a place that offers the opportunity for a lot of good discussion but there is a certain taste for the cut and thrust of debate, often hostile. This is far from the worst of it even! Some of the threads on the Rugby Union tab, for instance, are rather more gladitorial. Supporters of different codes here kind of have to be ready to rally to the colours, so to speak. So I think this site in particular might engender more of this sort of (now that I'm looking over it, quite unfriendly) adversarial approach, which is regrettable in this circumstance. I've butted heads with most of these other commentators myself :P Drives me crazy most of the time. Can understand the displeasure. Have no idea what you mean by the final paragraph, alas.

I should probably just let it drop, because it seems pointless to "rub it in", as Im sure this response will seem, no matter how I word it. The only reason Im commenting is that I got an e-mail message from the site manager and when I came back I saw this reply. I wanted to thank you for your comments about the RSN, and I hope you continue visiting. But having said that . . . . Nathan . . . . come on . . . . I really dont enjoy making comments that denigrate CCM's performance tonight. Because even though it was a particularly awful match, CCM werent responsible for the fact that I almost fell asleep - Nagoya were. Furthermore, (re your post further below) I felt that nearly all the comments on the thread entitled "Adelaide and Brisbane provide feast...." were just fine. The only comment I responded to negatively was the one where Fuss made a deliberate point of calling out "Japanese fanboys" by name, and then making a statement that could be paraphrased as: "You are lying. I have proof. Ha. Ha. Ha." yet then offered proof of something just the opposite to what he was intending to prove. How can I NOT respond with a bit of displeasure? Anyway, did you read what I wrote or not? How can you call that a "first-string team". Five players who cannot be described as"usual starters" were starters. But more to the point - when you bring on three subs (and not all in the last second, but with quite some time to play) who have a TOTAL of five appearances as professional footballers, BETWEEN THEM... and every one of those five appearances was as a substitute... its very difficult not to shake your head in disappointment when people keep trying to insist that this was a "first-string team". Some people say the sky is just the sky, but I say Why deny the obvious child Why deny the obvious child?

Oh bloody hell /facepalm We lose and say "Well, we got outplayed by a better team, not much we could do given the difference in league development and finances" and are told "You're being sore losers and mentioning the finances is excuses and nowhere what you think and FC Tokyo fielded an all-domestic second string team". Because THAT wasn't piling it on. We win/draw and say "Wow, those were first string teams, are things not as far as we thought? (and most of us thought it was pretty far)" and get told "Well now you're piling it on being boorish braggarts and we weren't really trying and they weren't really first-string teams.. What a bunch of poor winners!" I'm sorry, Matsu, what IS the appropriate response here? Do we close down the comment threads for ACL games and not try and analyze them? We're apparently sore losers when we lose and sore winners when we win and I've seen very little of EITHER of these so I have no idea where this is coming from. And now we're boorish braggarts? Whaaaaaat? What happened to you sense of fair play?

Us two? Us two? And 128% effort? All we're saying is that we faced first-string teams, not third-string teams, so we are not as far off the pace as we thought at first after that nasty shock in Brisbane. It probably doesn't help, though, that you and Fuss are apparently the two sides of the same coin; football evangelists for your respective leagues. Ps. Appreciate the site, been following the recent news. Pps. You're excuse making to an extent, I'm guessing wildly that its because you don't like anyone apparently denigrating the J-League and JFA. Fuss is much the same with the A-League, which tends to need a lot of defending because as much other nations poke at it, the local media rags on it many times harder, so there's a lot of baggage we're dealing with here.

BTW Titus, if you honestly think Im tryiing to imply that "Japan is far superior" then you need to get a clue. Here is a good place to start looking for one: http://www.the-rising-sun-news.com/news/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2585:japan-vs-australia-11-01-29&catid=132:nt-reports&Itemid=171 Piling on the way you did merely reinforces the point. Poor winners. Poor losers. Poor sports. Obviously that does not refer to all Australians, because I know quite a lot personally, and Im sure every one of them would disavow any association with you two. But they would also probably admit that there are as many boorish braggarts down under as there are wallabies. Im outa here

Sorry, that should have read: "Ishibitsu (for Tanaka), Daniel (for Masukawa), Yoshimura (for Nakamura) and Kanazaki (for Ogawa) are all second team. I started to write it the opposite way, (naming the four first stringers) so sorry for the confusion.

Great, thanks alot Fuss, now we have lost Matsu as a friend and supporter of Australian Football and in all likelyhood he will now pull a few strings and get us kicked out of Asia. All you had to do was accept that Japan is far superior, doesn't take playing Australia seriously, and if they really wanted too they could woop us. Why did you have to go and spoil it with your "football banter", it is so disrespectful.

Masukawa, Tanaka, Yoshimura, Kanazaki are all second team. The latter played only twice last year, and though he and Yoshimura did indeed start last weekend, its neither here nor there. Second team players sometimes start regular matches too. Unless your team is so weak that only 11 are good enough to play. And Nagai, who arguably should be called "first team" did start last week, but he usually comes off the bench. Its the subs, though, who drive the point home. Taguchi has four career appearances, Tanaka, just one. And Tanabe has never played a professional match in his life. Obviously, the exact players you would bring on when you are taking a match seriously, and determined to win. Good greif man, youre digging the hole even deeper. The point is, Australian teams did well this week and it OUGHT to be a time to congratulate them, and admire the progress the A-League is making. But by loudly, stubbornly, and deliberately provocatively insisting that J.League teams all give a 128% effort in every ACL match. . . . because you KNOW this to be true (even though everyone who knows the first thing about the J.League has told you otherwise) . . . . just invites scorn and disgust. The only thing more pathetic than a graceless loser is a graceless winner. I probably would have posted a "good job" comment on the Nagoya thread in other circumstances, but after the above exchange - which seems to be identical to every one I ever get into on this message board - its obvious that any such comments would be undeserved. The funny thing is, I was always one of the exceptions to the rule - an Asian fan who thought that it was a good thing to have Australia as a part of the AFC, and that they would be a positive influence on football in the region. I have to say, though, you guys are doing a very good job of winning me over to the majority viewpoint.

I have just finished watching the Korean champions lose 5-1 for the second week in a row. Who cares about a 2 nil here and there for Gamba and Brisbane :) -- Comment left via The Roar's iPhone app. Download The Roar's iPhone App in the App Store here.

"Id say the 4-5 second team players being fielded by Nagoya tonight" ... Matsu, you can't simply makes stuff up - it takes 2 mouse clicks to find the facts. FACT: Nine players in tonight's starting XI for Nagoya Grampus also started the match on the week-end in the J-League. Of the Grampus team that played in the J-League last week-end, only Hayuma Tanaka and Takahiro Masukawa did not start the game tonight against the CCM. And, BOTH these players made the trip to Gosford, are sitting on the bench and, most likely, will make an appearance tonight. So, unless Nagoya is playing "second team players in the J-League" we can safely say Nagoya has fielded brought their full strength team to Gosford.

I did predict 5th-8th, but that was before I saw them play a single minute of football. Considering their consistent level over the past several years that was viewed as a pessimistic prediction by a lot of people before they saw Gamba experience back-to-back 0-3 losses at home. Now the mainstream view has shifted to expect a roughly midtable finish (my original forecast) and my own view has adjusted to view them as "likely to avoid relegation as long as there are no major mishaps". The real issue, though, is that when your team is conceding three goals per match and is currently tied for last place in the league, any coach who wants to keep his job HAS TO field his best 11. It would be foolish to do otherwise (one J.League coach has already been fired and Im sure Serrao would have been close behind if he had lost by 4 or more, in Adelaide). Fuss apparently thinks this is some "proof" that J.League teams place high priority on the ACL. Id say the 4-5 second team players being fielded by Nagoya tonight (depending on whether you can make a strong enough claim that Nagai is "first team") offers a somewhat better reflection of what is "normal".

Going to point out you predicted 5th to 8th place finish for them, Matsu on your Gamba Osaka season preview.... Alarmed to hear they're getting considered as relegation material, where would the J-League be without Gamba Boy??

Matsu I appreciate the background information on Gamba and I've stored it in my archives. Alas, when calculating the ladder for the ACL there is only one piece of information that counts: AUFC 2 - 0 Gamba Osaka. I'm sorry, but, for me, a successful cross-border football tournament thrives on "international one-upmanship". :-)

"And, this SAME starting XI played in the J-League on the w/e" Indeed . . . . . and the SAME starting eleven conceded three goals to each of the (midtable) J.League teams they have played this season. I wish people would at least spend 30 seconds checking out such points before posting this sort of comment, virtually DEMANDING a response. Id prefer to just congratulate Adelaide for a win in the ACL and move on . . . The fact - as Im sure Mike T and VictoryFan, among others, will confirm - is that Gamba is a shattered shell of a club that faces a real risk of relegation this season. Comparing the Adelaide lineup to the Cerezo match is foolish when most of the players who provided the impetus for Gamba's third place finish last year are now playing for either Vissel Kobe or Ulsan Hyundai (who drew 2-2 with FC Tokyo yesterday). Adelaide won the match yesterday. Why cant you just be satisfied to leave it at that? When you start trying to turn it into international one-upsmanship competition all you do is demonstrate your own ignorance of what is happening in the J.League this year. Gamba has a brand new coach - meaning that they are a mere 6-8 weeks into a process of adjusting to a new system after ten years of Nishino football. Add to that the fact that four of the players who played last night were not even ON THE TEAM last year, and throw in the fact that departures last season included the team captain (Yamaguchi), two other starting defenders, (one a former NT player), two starting midfielders (one a former Japan NT cap and one a current Korean NT cap), and top it off with the loss of strikers Lee Keun-ho (last sesason's top scorer) and Shoki Hirai (just 5 goals last year, but 14 in 2010), and I dont even have to finish the sentence for you to figure out what Im about to say. Thats right: This year's Gamba is NOT the same team that earned the ACL spot. In fact, this year Gamba fans will be extremely happy just to avoid relegation. Good grief, do you really have THAT big a chip on your shoulder that you couldnt just accept a win over an ACL opponent and leave it at that?