Which is the better Racing Carnival: Sydney Autumn or Melbourne Spring?

The problem with Sydney racing is that they keep moving the dates of their major races too much, to try and keep up with Easter, What the ATC needs to do is to send some administrators down to Melbourne for the duration of the Spring Racing Carnival and try to learn how to make the Sydney carnival better. Also another thing Sydney racing administors might do is to have their major races run on set days, and maybe have the Golden Slipper and the BMW as the major focus of the Sydney carnival. Melbourne however do it better. You can program your whole carnival around the Melbourne Cup, and the Cup is always on the first Tuesday in November-set in concrete.

Jason, No need to ask the question, no need at all. Right now the answer is blaringly obvious across a whole raft of issues - Melbourne Spring. A better question is to ask Sydney racing when they will get off their backside & endeavour to make Sydney Autumn a rival for Melbourne Spring. Or better still, compliment each other as our two best racing carnivals.

Would The Roar put this question not so much to the administrators, but more to the racing media (ie Sky Racing & TVN experts) to see which carnival they think is the better- the Sydney Autumn Racing Carnival, or the Melbourne Spring Racing Carnival?

And this is where Sydney racing falls down. After all, how many horses that usually do well in the Sydney Autumn Carnival back up their performances in the Melbourne Spring Racing Carnival? Answer: not many.

Jason, You're mixing apples with oranges here. Being a champion at equal weights over 2400m for the Prix de l'Arc is not the same as winning say the Ascot Gold in handicap conditions over 4000m. Winning blue riband WFA races over 2000/2400m does not qualify you as a champion handicapper over 3200m. If anything, it's bound to crucify you with a huge weight. So You Think was the outstanding racehorse in 2010, unmatched at WFA, but the big weight & extra distance of the Melbourne Cup found him out. In any case, the VRC does provide automatic exception, or higher order of entry, for horses that win major staying handicaps in Australia & around the world. One of the great things about the Melbourne Spring carnival is the excellent selection of staying handicaps available to horses seeking to run & be fit for the Cup. And all this in addition to the excellent series of WFA races. Starting with the Gns/Stakes weekend, we have the following: Saturday: Herbert Power Hcp 2400m M-week: Coongy Hcp 2100m Saturday: Caulfield Cup 2400m M-week: Geelong Cup 2400m Saturday: Moonee Valley Cup 2500m M-week: Bendigo Cup 2400m Saturday: Hotham Hcp 2500m (Lexus Stakes) Tuesday: Melbourne Cup And this doesn't include all the excellent lead-up races prior to that, headed by The Metropolitan in Sydney.

Surely there should be a 'Melbourne Cup Series', whereby a list of races would be qualifying races to get into the Melbourne Cup, similar to what they do in greyhound racing. The 'Melbourne Cup Series' should consist of the following races: Perth Cup BMW Tancred Stakes Australian Cup Sydney Cup Adelaide Cup Brisbane Cup Hobart Cup Launceston Cup Prix l'Arc de Triomphe Kentucky Derby Belmont Stakes Preakness Stakes King Georgre Stakes Queen Elizabeth Stakes Japan Cup Turnbull Stakes Caulfield Cup Moonee Valley Cup Mackinnon Stakes All these races would have automatic entry into the Melbourne Cup for the winner, making the Melbourne Cup even bigger.

jcinque, I agree 4 days at Randwick probably won't work if it isn't Easter, but the idea is to mimic the best. Even if the racing was confined to successive Saturdays, you could still come up with block-busting racing events. I know this is straying off course a bit, but I agree the BMW Tancred is undervalued, & so is the Australian Cup. We presently have the Cox Plate in the Melbourne Spring run over 2040m & the BMW in the Sydney Autumn run over 2400m. I would like to see the Australian Cup increased to 2200m or even 2500m in the Melbourne Autumn. With the wide open spaces of Flemington, I would like to see this race that is named after our country usurp the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe (France) & King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes (England) as the premier distance WFA race in the world. With the BMW Tancred right behind it in quality & prestige. Meanwhile, I would have another 2000m WFA at the Sydney Autumn (currently the QE2 Stakes) but give it a more relevant Sydney/NSW name, maybe like the Endeavour Plate. Thus the big 4 WFA races in Australia would be - Cox Plate (2040m) at Moonee Valley, Australian Cup (2200m or 2500m) at Flemington, Endeavour Plate (2000m) at Rosehill & BMW Tancred Stakes (2400m) at Randwick.

personally i think the doncaster is most years australias best quality race field. melbourne is definitely a much bigger event but the quality of racing is much closer

Sheek, I think your comment has hit the nail on the head. The Melbourne Spring Carnival is structured PERFECTLY. It's fantastic racing and it's fantastic sport. I disgree with reverting to the week-long Randwick Carnival - especially if it doesn't revolve around Easter. When they did it that way (Doncaster was on Easter Monday) they got good crowds w/o being brilliant for three days - Derby Day Sat, Donnie Mon and Syd Cup Sat. Oaks Day crowds on the Wednesday was around 10k which isn't too bad (the support card wasn't spectular but I enjoyed Oaks Day wednesday the couple of times I went!) and they co-incided Oaks day with a night yearling sales session at nearby Newmarket (I think that's where they do it), which helped the crowd figure too. If you run a four-day Randwick Carnival on a non-Easter weekend - the Monday and Wednesday crowds will suffer. You would have to make Syd Cup Day Monday a public holiday - and I can't see that happening just for the race. However, if it was made a PH and this structure was given time to embed itself in the Sydney calendar it could possibly work. What I do know is, it won't work if they abondon such an idea after one or two years like they did five years ago. I'm not really sure what the answer is, although I think the BMW/Tancred Stakes is a big asset that is being underused. Why can't this race be the first ever international WFA G1 on the Australian racing calendar? It is perfectly situated to get horses from HK, NZ, and Europe. A mid-April BMW would be at the start of the European flat season, would be at the end of the HK March/April carnival racing and is smack bang in the middle of the autumn carnival in Sydney. Up the prizemoney to $A4M and get international billing for it and in ten years time it will be HUGE!

Jason, As jcinque says, it's not really a contest, but there's no reason as I suggested yesterday, that Sydney Autumn couldn't be close to Melbourne Spring. As racing fans, we should want both carnivals to be maximising their product. At present, this is the significant difference. Melbourne sells its spring carnival wonderfully. Sydney sells its autumn carnival woefully. From a social viewpoint, the spring carnival is beautifully placed. October-November is a nice time of the year, but more importantly the increasingly warm weather means summer, Xmas & annual hols to most Australians. There's the sense of coming anticipation. March-April is also a beautiful time of the year. While the nights are cooler, the days are still balmier, but socially we know we're heading into winter, cold & tax returns! From a racing viewpoint, Sydney Autumn is better for the horses. Sydney can put on a full deck of 2yo classics, which Melbourne can't. The reason being 2yos are more mature in the autumn. The same can be said for 3yos & 4yos, they are just a little more into their season & more mature racers. Thus Sydney can throw up the Golden Slipper, the best 2yo race in the world. Furthermore, the Australian Derby & Oaks are better racess than their Victorian equivalents simply because the 3yos are more mature. In the spring, 3yos are maturing at different rates, with many still very 'green'. But the structure of Melbourne spiring racing is unrivaled. I would argue it is unrivaled in the world. It really starts with Saturday Caulfield 2000 Gns; then midweek Caulfield 1000 Gns; then Saturday Caulfield Cup; then midweek Geelong Cup; then Saturday MV Cox Plate; then midweek Cranbourne Cup (ex-Werribee Cup); then Saturday Flemington Derby; then Tuesday Flemington Melbourne Cup; then Thursday Flemington Oaks; then Saturday Flemington Emirates. You just can't rival this! But Sydney autumn can mimic the best. Firstly, the Sydney Autumn carnival must be set at particular dates. This too-ing & fro-ing to keep up with easter is ridiculous. Secondly, the Golden Slipper & BMW Tancred should be run on the last Saturday of March, & the Australian Derby & Doncaster Hcp on the first Saturday of April. Then as they did in the past, return Randwick to 4 days of racing - Saturday, Monday, Wednesday & Saturday again. As mentioned the first Saturday holds the Derby & Doncaster; the Monday holds the Sydney Cup; the Wednesday holds the Oaks & the following Saturday holds the BMW Tancred. I would swap the BMW Tancred (2400m) with the Queen Elizabeth Stakes II (2000m). It makes much more sense to run the QE2 at Rosehill over 2000m, then build up to the BMW Tancred over 2400m two weeks later, rather than go down in distance. Then we might begin to have two thoroughbred racing carnivals that Australians could be proud of!

Which is true. You can't have two turf clubs fighting over each other in regards to the Autumn Racing Carnival. The VATC (which runs Caulfield), MVRC (Moonee Valley) and the VRC (Flemington) complement each other very well when the Spring Racing Carnival is on-something NSW was unable to do. Another thing is the brilliant racing during the Spring Racing Carnival and the hopes & ambitions of the owners, trainers & jockeys plus the horses played out big time in the media. And the Spring Racing Carnival is the only time where horse racing has the spotlight to itself without having to be overshadowed by the 4 major football codes fighting for media attention.

Jason, it's not really a contest is it? Melbourne's Spring Carnival is heaps better than Sydney's autumn and I think the reason for the that is the Melbourne Cup. The entire Spring Carnival builds to the crescendo of the Cup. As we get closer to the first Tuesday in November the interest in the Carnival grows and the Carnival builds great momentum. Not only that but the lead-up races to the Cup are fantastic races - the Turnbull, the Cox Plate, the Caulfield Cup, the Mackinnon and the lesser handicap races. The Sydney Carnival doesn't build this momentum and that is because the old STC and AJC Carnivals don't complement eachother like the Melbourne clubs do in their Carnival races. The pinnacle of the old STC Carnival was a 2YO race - The Golden Slipper, while the pinnacle of the AJC Carnival was either the Derby (a 3YO race) or the Doncaster (a mile handicap). The Carnival could never build momentum like Melbourne's Spring. But now that the ATC runs racing in Sydney, we may be able to see a bit of restructuring to give the Carnival something else. The BMW (or Tancred) is a truly great race and I would like to see it become the pin-up race of the Sydney Carnival - it has great potential. I think by moving it back a few weeks it could become the "race" of the Carnival and in maybe 25 years time supercede the Cox Plate as the premier WFA race in this country.