The Pumas’ strong showing in the Rugby Championship has come at a time when Argentina’s reputation as one of football’s superpowers has been questioned.
Argentina’s rugby prospects are gleaming after they recorded a 16-all draw against the Springboks and pushed Australia to the limit last weekend.
The Wallabies trailed the Pumas by 19-6 with 25 minutes remaining but scored two late tries to escape Skilled Park with the four points.
Led by Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, the big and physical Pumas pack has proven they can compete against the three best rugby-playing nations in the world.
Argentina is the highest ranked South American team in eighth position, trailing European heavyweights England and France but above European stalwarts Scotland.
The Pumas have been fluctuating around rugby’s top 10 since 2007, where they reached their highest ranking of fourth place.
Argentina is one spot higher than they were this time last year and can spike back up the rankings if they perform well against Australia and South Africa at home.
But has the Pumas’ surge been at the expense of the Argentinian football team’s slide?
In Argentina rugby union takes a back seat to football.
The world game has enthralled South America with Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina dominating the international stage since the modern era.
Diego Maradona and now Lionel Messi are Argentinian legends who have become global icons amongst the football fraternity.
But in recent years the Argentinian football team has failed to deliver on the big stage, which has seen their status as a superpower plummet.
Argentina currently sits seventh in the FIFA rankings and continue to drop after topping the standings five years ago.
Friendlies and international warm up matches are hard to judge how a team is travelling in terms of form and results, however the World Cup and Copa de America are better indicators given the stakes are higher and teams need to win at all costs.
And Argentina has failed to get past the quarter-final stage of a World Cup since 1990.
Also, Argentina has not fared much better in the Copa America, having not won since 1993.
These statistics don’t tell the full story, but they show Argentina is no longer the force they used to be.
Rebuilding, friction, injuries; players and coaches can put whatever spin they like, truth is the Argentinian government funds millions of dollars into Argentinian soccer at the expense of a lot less for rugby union.
The sport dynamic is not going to shift but the recent good form of the Argentinian rugby side has magnified the disappointments of their soccer counterparts.
allblackfan
Guest
According to the NZRU, there are 1000 journalists fighting for 200 accredited spots with the UAR for the All Black test!!
Cappuccino
Roar Guru
While the Argentine football team is currently underperforming, football in general in Argentina is not on the way down. Foootball will always be number one in Argentina. That's not to say rugby won't have a place- I am sure it too will grow- but football remains number one. Also, comparing the FIFA rankings with the IRB rankings is pointless- the difference between 1st and 20th in football is so much smaller than in rugby rankings.
sledgeandhammer
Guest
as in Australia, league is league or footy, rugby union is rugby. Only in UK is 'rugby' used for both codes.
Rob9
Guest
You do know what the play basketball and ice hockey in right?? Thats a good indicator of what I'm dealing with here. Good chat Dave.
MV Dave
Guest
Rob Love the way your happy to remove from the discussion, to suit your argument, several teams from HAL...yeh right. In Newcastle and Central Coast football wins, plus in Sydenee football wins as we have 2 teams to your 1 because you haven't got enough support for 2 teams, same in Melbourne. BTW interesting that you only want to use average crowds to determine popularity because, as you no doubt know, MLS has higher average attendance than both Hockey and Basketball. So according to you football is more popular than those 2 sports in the USA? The problem for your argument is that you have to speculate that Rugby maybe could achieve the 1.5m spectators whereas they can't even get support up for more than 5 teams. Sorry mate but speculation doesn't count only the facts. Nice discussion though.
Rob9
Guest
What we're comparing Dave is elite rugby in Australia vs elite soccer in Australia, which happens to be, as you put it is the 'little ol Hyundai A-league. Alright if we look at the 4 Australian cities that both the A-League and Super Rugby are in, which also happen to be the 4 largest markets in the country you'll see a trend developing. In Sydney the Tahs average 21,000 while Sydney FC average 12,000 (rugby win). In Melbourne the Rebels average 14,000 while the Victory average 20,000 (check the facts if you feel the need) and the Heart 9,000 (soccer win). In Brisbane the Reds average 34,000 while the Roar average 13,000 (rugby win). Finally in Perth the Force average 13,000 while the Glory average 8,000 (rugby win). I'd argue that crowd averages are far more accurate than total attendances when looking at the popularity of an elite sporting league. As this shows, rugby has the bragging rights in 3 of the 4 largest markets in the country. Can we assume that if other rugby heartlands like Newcastle, the Gold Coast and Western Sydney were represented at the professional level and if the 5 existing teams had a further 5 home games a season (to reach the same number of home games that each A-league team has) to lift their overall attendance that rugby would be getting around that 1.5 million mark?... I think it's safe to say yes. As for the national level, research suggests that the Wallaby brand is one of the strongest sporting brands in the country. As long as they continue to be involved in high profile annual tournaments like the Rugby Championship and the inbound June test series, I'd say they'll continue to have the wood on the Socceroos. Yea soccer has some great participation rates in Australia, but as I said the situation is similar in the States. And you try telling an American that soccers a dominant code in their homeland. As far as dedicated or even casual fans is concerned, at best soccer is on par with rugby in Australia. Your comment suggesting that there isn't the players, money or interest for more teams just shows how little you know about rugby in Australia. I suggest sticking to commenting on topics that you actually have some level of knowledge and understanding on.
MV Dave
Guest
Rob Being in a generous mood and seeing as you raised football in the USA thought l'd share this article; http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/relegationzone/id/262?cc=3436
MV Dave
Guest
Rob You write so much l think you've forgotten what you have said. Once again your facts are completely wrong...MV had an average of over 20,000 per game with plenty of crowds bigger than 19,000. The biggest was over 40,000 and l wonder how many SR teams got more than that? Me thinks maybe 1. Also why do you think there are only 5 Oz teams in SR? I'll help you...because there ain't the players, money or interest for any more. So we are talking here and now...1.5m fans attend HAL and much less SR in Oz. we've already agreed that there are many times more football players and clubs than Rugby so...end of story. Also remember we are comparing the no1 Rugby club comp in the world against little ol HAL. Don't worry being 4th out of 4 gives you something to aim for.
Rob9
Guest
Dave take a deep breath, actually read what I’ve written and have another go champ. Where did I compare USA soccer to USA rugby?? ‘Mate’ you need to stop reading what you want into peoples posts and get some perspective. I’m not pretending rugby is a dominant sport world wide. Stop pretending soccer is in Australia. Of the 40 SR games last year only 1 game was under the A-League average of 10,500. Of A-Leagues 135 games last year, only 2 regular season matches managed to crack the regular SR season average of 19,400. As I said I like to see the A-League doing well, I hope it has it’s best season yet in the coming summer… but seriously, you don’t have much of a case for domestic dominance over rugby with the A-League as your point of reference. A schoolboy rugby game in Brisbane last weekend just about cracked the A-League average. Your so quick to shoot down rugby’s achievements here and overseas yet how far a long is soccer in at your own back door?? And seriously how much further along can it get than it already is now? ‘Come back’ when your average crowds aren’t less then the line up at Sizzler on a Friday night.
MV Dave
Guest
Rob9 Get a grip mate...who mentioned USA? But since you did how's that Rugby pro comp going? If football is a niche sport there what is Rugby? Come back when you have a pro comp for Rugby in the USA with 20 teams and 19,000 per game average. In Oz HAL drew around 1.5 million spectators last season Rugby much less...there are more teams, spectators and players in Oz than Rugby...it's fact don't get too stressed about it.
tonysalerno
Roar Guru
'overtaking' is a very strong word matthewthorpe, and didn't use that in my article. Haha basketball in Australia has it's own problems without me putting in my two cents worth. Seeing Arg hold there own against two of the best rugby nations really opens your eyes to the disappointments of the Argentinian soccer team- where the government puts a hell of a lot more money.
Rob9
Guest
Dave you also seem to be making an art form out of quoting plastic facts (or even worse, making unsubstantiated claims) that don't tell the whole story. For example, soccer out ranks 3 (ice hockey, American Football and baseball) of America's 'big 4' sports when it comes to participation numbers. When you look at the bigger picture, how's soccer sitting within the US sporting landscape? Having spent a lot of time there myself let me tell you. It has a wide following in the immigrant and Latino population but remains a niche sport that's largely drowned out by the dominant and traditional US sports. Oddly similar to soccers situation in Australia don't you think? With regards to crowds, the A-league held 135 fixtures last year for a crowd average of just over 10,000. Super Rugby held 40 fixtures for a crowd average of over 19,000. Why aren't you interested in quoting these facts? It has something to do with the amount of content being provided too when looking at over all crowd numbers don't you think? Further to crowd averages, only the Victory and the Roar (who have been going through a bit of a purple patch lately) have average crowds that exceed the lowest SR average for an Australian team. See what I'm doing there?... Quoting facts to suit my purposes. On world cup viewership, I can only assume that again you're looking at the entire offering of the content. The FIFA WC has 64 games while the rugby WC has 16 fewer. The highest rating RWC game in Australia was back in 03 when we met England in the final. As this was a home world cup I won't quote this one to be fair. Since then, in last years semi against the AB's the 5 metro average (combining channel 9 and Fox) was 2.5 million. This was also the highest rating program in Australian pay tv history. The highest rating FIFA WC game in Australia was our round of 16 game against Italy in 06 that achieved a 2.3 million 5 metro rating. I'm not sure why you bring world rankings (which you've also quoted wrongly) into this either. As I said, I'm very well aware of both codes strengths and weaknesses domestically and internationally. I understand that the bulk of rugby's following is on the east coast where it will always be dominated by league but can realistically hope to hold AFL out of 2nd place. In the AFL states it's well down the pecking order but has a realistic chance of beating league as the dominant rugby code. Can I suggest that soccers status in Australia is not too dissimilar to that in the United States. A niche sport that's hugely popular amongst the immigrant population (which like the US is a reasonable percentage) while enjoying a large participation base particularly amongst juniors due to it's low contact nature. However it will always face stiff competition from sports the are deeply engrained within our national and regional sporting cultures, particularly at the elite level. I'd also suggest that that infamous giant that's often talked about in soccer circles may have passed away in his sleep. The game has come a long way since the NSL days when Socceroo WC appearances were as rare as Harry Kewel's goals in the green and gold. The FFA have created a reasonably successful niche national league and built us up as a regional force within the Asian confederate but please don't be so naive (as some of the rugby fans here are) to suggest that the sky's the limit. Sure there are some milestones to achieve and the game will continue to grow as the country does, but Australia is clearly dominated by 2 football codes that effectively occupy a half of national population each and they're head and shoulders above the pack in their respective strongholds. Sports like soccer and rugby are their to occupy the niche roles and as I currently see it neither is exactly dominating the other. Internationally I'm happy to concede it is and will always remain a different story.
Bakkies
Guest
Of course I don't have a clue about what's happening in Argentina bar what's written in the media or from posters based in that country. At least defensepuma is passionate and has been waiting a long time for Rugby to reach it's current level of popularity. You come across as a defensive t.at
tonysalerno
Roar Guru
My last hurrah made sure i magnified the point that soccer will never be over taken by soccer in Argentina "The sport dynamic is not going to shift but the recent good form of the Argentinian rugby side has magnified the disappointments of their soccer counterparts."
MV Dave
Guest
The Serie A averages around 25,000 per game despite being in a constant state of turmoil whilst the pro Rugby competition averages around 1- 2,000 per game. Many football supporters in Italy (and in a number of countries) put their club team ahead of the national team. Lazio averaged over 32,000 per game and Roma over 36,000 per home game at the Olympic stadium despite having fairly average teams last season. Of course the average national team footballer has less passion playing for his country than the Rugby players because the Rugby players sing louder?? Truly nuts.
kovana
Guest
Sorry Johnno, i think a RWC in USA by 2023 is too soon... However, all the hard work they are doing at Grassroots level, with 400'000 Children in USA having been exposed to rugby is perfect for the future... These kids will grow up and around the time the RWC rolls up to their doorstep, they will be eager ticket buyers IMO.
kovana
Guest
I think Russia hosting a RWC in 2027 will be a tad bit too soon IMO. Just looking at some of their crowds for their Pro rugby matches is a bit low.. some get only 100 people to matches. And they havent really performed at test levels...AND also the crowds for test matches are very low.. So popularity is not at the level it should be.
MV Dave
Guest
Chris So because one footballer in Argentina doesn't like Rugby the whole football industry in that country is worried about the rise of Rugby? Not much of a long bow there....
MV Dave
Guest
Leo and Rob9 There are 9 pro football teams in Oz vs 5 Rugby There would be any more semi pro football teams in Oz vs Rugby There would 3-4 times (at least) the number of football participants in Oz vs Rugby There were almost double the number of spectators at Oz HAL games than Oz SR (apparently the no 1 club Rugby competition in the world) games in 2011/2012 The Socceroos will outrate the Oz Rugby team on TV during WC games despite having a world ranking of 25 vs Rugby 3? Move on...both codes have plenty of challenges ahead of them.
MV Dave
Guest
So you would have no idea either then Bakkies? When there is a 20 team pro Rugby league in Argentina averaging 20,000 per game get back to me... The Argentine Rugby team have had decent support for decades...as has the Basketball team, Volleyball team etc when playing big games.