Schoolboy rugby needs a review

Sorry to disagree with you but these so called elite private schools will never change their values. That is why they are elite. They hold traditions above and beyond. Just because someone has a great idea about a new competition does not mean that they should conform. The GPS and CAS schools are great institutions for rugby and always have been. It would appear that the writer of this article is unhappy about this. These schools support and encourage rugby in its finest traditions. Rugby is an elite sport, lets not forget that!

Unfortunately Johnno, you don't appear to get it. You will have a better chance of covincing the Liberals that Labor's doing a sterling job than changing what is a great system for the all round development of schoolboys in the GPS system. Better you put your extensive efforts into a state school model in direct competition to league. Having more of the state schools playing rugby will certainly enhance the stocks.

Hi Johnno, Thanks for taking the time to write an article and offer an alternate model. I thought I might make a couple of points on some of your points. You said.... SO basically the GPS schools have to put the wallabies no 1, and there own outdated traditionalist models no 2, and make the wallabies being globally competitive there no 1 goal, not there own selfish pursuits of having old boy, or old school tie, asoscaitons, or models, that are outdated in producing the most competitive rugby comps available and that are possible to achieve. I say... Schools do not make anything more important than the individual. The boy, his relationship to education, his lifelong love of learning, his understanding of community and his participation in all aspects of life, including sport. The Wallabies success will never, ever, ever be considered over this ideal. You said.... RUgby league in Australia is doing it. GIO is sponsoring the now named GIO schoolboy rugby league comp. Going to be on foxtel. Will help rugby league massively. And GPS rugby has to get with the times and help the ARU and wallabies be globally competitive, and have higher and better competitive structures. I say.... Can you name a single RL playing school that has been more successful than any of the GPS schools in Sydney or Brisbane? You can choose the criteria for this one. Just because RL does it does not mean it is a good idea, it may be defunct in a few years time. You said... The results of the under-20 world cup in south africa finishing no 8, should be a wake up call that the GPS schools have to help the ARU and the wallabies more by having more competitive competition formats that will create depth. and the best way they can to this is a merged 1 Assoaication model and structure. Rather than multiple associations flip flopping around everywhere all in the name of outdated not in the real world traditions. I say to you Johnnoo,..... I would wager that the GPS Rugby competitions in Brisbane and Sydney are of a very high standard, even when compared to NZ and SA. In Brisbane the best rugby players are playing GPS Rugby, thus it forms the pointy end of the pyramid, the best against the best. The GPS 1st 15s put in huge efforts, training, weights, agility, medical considerations. They then play against a small collection of schools doing similar. I believe the Wallabies are grateful for the GPS comps. I would argue this format is a better model than spreading the talent over 30 different schools. Johnnoo said.... And the AB’S are world champs so the evidence is there for all to see. Pretty obvious if you ask me which business model is better. NZ by a long long way. I say.... I am always distressed to hear someone say that the final result of anything can be traced back to one factor. The ABs are World Champs for a combination of reasons. Not as evidence that the GPS schools rugby competition needs to be restructured. The GPS is a community with shared ideals, values and interests. To argue that they are isolationist is an affront. The schools regularly partner with Universities, Tafe Colleges, the armed forces and many more institutions. Having a closed sporting competition does not make a school isolationist, it protects what they already have. I am sure the other competitions around Australia, including RL, wish they had what the GPS does. The GPS is a GREAT business model, lets see enthusiasts like you get down to some of the other schools and clubs in Australia and get them to raise the standard. Rugby in private schools is balanced with other pursuits, imagine table with a leg called sport. This table needs other legs also, culture, academia, community and I am sure many of the schools would add spirituality to this. The teachers who run these sports usually believe in these ideals also. They want boys to play soccer, row, debate, join charities, go on cultural trips. The teachers themselves usually want to be involved in these activities also. The GPS has a great tradition of achieving these things.

Sorry Johnnoo but as an old Scots boy I've got no interest in your proposal and can't think of many others who would. Sure Grammar and High have given up but why would the other GPS schools want to trade in the tradition? I know it's popular these days to not put much standing by tradition, but by going to a school like Scots or Joeys that's what you're signing up for. I mean look at those schools you've named.... I wasn't aware that St Andrews even had a rugby team and I've no idea where St Augustines, St Pius, St Pats or Kinross Woloaroi are.. I'm also having a bit of a chuckle to myself about the idea of a bunch of Scots housewives descending on mass at Campbelltown. I know that on a few occasions the ABC has asked to broadcast games and Scots and rightly (IMHO) the principal turned them down. School is about learning and as it is there's probably too much emphasis on school sport as it is. Speaking as someone who still regularly attends the Scots v Joeys games I like that there's still a religious element to it, I like the history of the game, and calling them a bunch of !@#$ because they wear pink tops. Say what you will about looking for the good of the game, but the GPS people don't want it. Maybe the ARU could spend a bit of money trying to get some public schools to play rugby. Case in point, the school of the Ella Brothers and Lloyd Walked Matraville high, despite being a "Sports High School" no longer has a rugby team. Maybe they could rectify that first. Call me a snob if you want, and that would be accurate enough, but I just don't see the benefit to the GPS schools. The GPS schools have done a pretty good job of developing Wallabies over the last 100 years, maybe the ARU could do its job and try and get some equivalent results out of public schools.

If they are non aligned Johnno, then their players should be ineligible to play in ARU representative sides. Are they?

Druid, I have a League back ground. As it was in my day the player pathway to play in the NRL is clear and understood by most. My sons play Rugby and attend a GPS school. My observation is that Rugby has too many factions competing against one another at a Junior Level such as, Village Club, School, Gold Squad, compounded further if you add Junior representative teams on top. This unecessary in fighting has resulted in many good people walking away from Rugby. Rugby needs to engage and win over the hearts and minds of the parents particularly those who have no idea about Rugby. Once the parents understand the Junior player pathway for Rugby they can make better informed choices with their children. If players can see a natural progression which is fair and reasonable combined with their parents support then I believe you would see game participation numbers increase. Most parents want to be involved in their son/daughter chosen sport to make sure their kids get a fair go.

interesting article aand comments, it does seem that to dismantle the old boys system would be hard, however I would argue the only reson joeys are so strong is they steal, offer, country nsw best youngsters, the huntervalley would have some of the strongest schools in terms of rugby in australia. the current crop od super players proves this, nic white, paddy dellit, jeremy tilse, josh valentine. country peopel send their kids to joeys for the connections and the rugby opportunities, if your kid is a good player they stand a much better chance of going through to the schoolboys teams though the gps system than the chs of catholic ccc. Schools like all saints maitland have produced half the bloody knights teams, the johnsboys included, but with no high level of competition of rugby, no value is given to it, or the rugby payrrs have left for sydney school scholarships.

Same problem in Melbourne

The issue pivotal to Johnnos article is the need to introduce schoolboy rugby to TV audiences Most debate has focussed on structure. My question is this;outside of the rugby converted ,who will watch it . The ABC could run the schoolboys comp because ratings are not necessarily important . Rugby struggles to gain a broader foothold in Australia because newcomers cannot understand the game. I reckon at least fifty percent of the thousands of Roar posts in recent months echo a dissatisfaction about the lack of running rugby,ball in play for about 35 out of 80 minutes, dogs breakfast at the breakdown.All that. The genuine frustration from rusted on rugby supporters is continuous and endless. In short ,rugby supporters want a game that doesn't realy exist, or only exists in part.The Barbarian factor. If dyed in the wool rugby supporters are frustrated, and clutch at solutions with a mantra "we want to be entertained" when rugby union by its very nature and complexity was NEVER about entertainment, how is the sport going to attract a critical mass. Sure get the schoolboys on TV.Good idea. But who will watch it.

the problem is all the strong state sports hs are playing rl

I don't know about untenable St Pat's replaced by Trinity Goulburn. It wasn't like they were losing a school from the comp.

In Perth school boy rugy is split between the eight PSA (GPS equivalent in WA) and the rest of the school population. From year 10 upwards the PSA boys are obliged to play for their school on Saturday mornings, the same time as WA Junior Rugby Union. This results in the splitting of the the limited talent pool and weakens both competions. Hale School has dominated the PSA competion for the past decade while at the year 10 and 2nd 15 level some schools can not even field full teams and often have to play unopossed scrums for the lack of a qualified frount row. The rest of competion is fairly strong but with around 250 plyers taken out of the three last years of school in relatively small population, this competion is weakened paricularly in the western suburbs where the PSA schools are located WA Junior Rugby has been getting stronger in numbers and in the quality of the athletes (in some measure due to the migrant population from South Africa and Polynesia) and the representative sides getting closer to the Queensland and NSW teams in the interstate carnivals, but because of the lower level of intensity on the field it generally takes the WA boys some time to lift to level at which is demanded. If Australian Rugby is to broaded its depth beyond the Queensland and NSW schools there needs to some way of mining the other states and WA would seem to be a possible source if only some sensible accomadation can be made betwwen the traditions of the PSA and the rest of the competition

OP, I agree with the essence of your response. Most people believe that to compete with the kiwis we need to have much higher participation rates and have a much broader base. By any count, the numbers of students in public schools far outweigh the number of students in Private Education. By all means we should be aiming to have the highest standard private school competition that can be achieved; however this is only a small part of the solution. Unless we get more kids engaged in Rugby, we will never be the best we can be. There are many very talented kids (which do not go to elite private schools look at League and AFL) participating in other sports that are being lost to Rugby due to a lack of focus on developing public schools and club Rugby. For instance, the ability for kids in Western Sydney to engage in Rugby is extremely limited. There are very few clubs i.e. you have Rooty Hill, Liverpool & Blue Mountains to cover the majority of Western Sydney (and many of these clubs struggle for numbers) and only a few schools which would have any Rugby being played at all in this area. I am sure the same problem exists in many country areas of Australia. So the bigger question for me is how are we engaging these kids in Rugby when they are not exposed to Rugby in the areas they live?

I love your enthusiasm jonno but IMO if you attended a CAS school you just wont 'get' the GPS thing no matter how hard you try. FACT. Its only 1st and 2nd XV rugby that high and grammar are no longer participating in so no need to change the whole GPS system / network because of this. I actually thing the new GPS home and away style 10 round comp sets up a great marathon not a sprint type race. However I do support a cup style competition running alongside each independant association broken into such tiers as you suggest. Perhaps played over the entire terms 2 and 3 on spare weekends or mid week. I have admired the Scottish schools cup in person and it works well. Scotland is about the same size as the geography of the schools we are talking about in your post so it definitely could work.

Pillock and Peeko, you are both right. Rugby in most of the GPS schools now encompass one semester! As I have outlined before, the 'Heads' of these schools have competing priorities to provide a high academic standard for the students (and demanded by the parents) and a holistic sports program taking in both summer and winter sports providing variety as well as competition. Not withstanding the significant history encompassing GPS sport in general, to do what they do in the time allowed is quite significant. I note some posters speak of a finals series involving 16 teams etc. Such comments indicate no clue to how these schools function, the competing priorities they have together with the politics of sport versus academics...a never ending headache for the schools. Whilst many would want to see rugby as the only sport, thankfully, this isn't the case and nor can I see it ever becoming the case. Those gifted in rugby will still excel and I have no doubt schools will continue with sporting scholarships to assist players to develop as well as bolster their stocks. I think the bringing in of players to bolster a 1st XV is long gone. Schools are recognising talent considerably earlier (U113 - 15) and bringing them in then. They recognise the issues created by bringing kids in for the final year or two. I'm not saying it still doesn't happen, however, the smarter schools no longer do it. Certainly in Queensland, who you would have to recognise as being significantly dominant at schoolboy level over the past 6 years or so, appear to have correct structures in place and a recent win by the Australian Schoolboys team over NZ would seem to confirm this. In the very limited time available for rugby in GPS schools, I believe they are punching well above their weights and perhaps if more emphasis was placed into getting the public schools more involved in rugby, our rugby future would be stronger in an environment where young people are spoilt for choice when it comes to pursuing their sporting dreams.

Not sure the ACT is a great example. The competition was always very skinny in terms of teams (although the standard is high) and with the closure of St Pats Goulburn the numbers were untenable. The GPS (rightly) view their association as being about much more than rugby, and sport as being about much more than a pathway to a professional career in sport. The ARU has absolutely no power to enforce any of its wishes on the GPS and while the state and federal governments might have some indirect power, they would be insane to even think about starting a fight over an issue like this.

Peeeko you are dead right. On a list of things that need to be done at most schools "Helping the ARU" would rank very close to the bottom, and so it should. The argument seems to be without some radical over haul of the schools Aust Rugby is doomed to failure, you could turn the whole thing on it's ear and the net result would be zero it is a complete waste of time and effort. As you said schools are independent and their aims for the welfare of their students is a paramount. If what they do helps the ARU fine, if not what do they care. A thing most people seem to ignore is that the schools run sports for all the students not just the aspiring wallabies,the structure of the competition is as much about the U13 E's as it is about the 1St XV.