Johns factor puts Manly in box seat

Steve, your argument does not make sense. You deny that Toovey's influence in his first year caused them to almost reach the grand final and that it was the Hasler factor that caused that, and yet you're saying Toovey lacks the ability to be a good coach. Based on what?. You cant have it both ways mate. Either the Hasler factor got Manly to the finals and Toovey's influence was inconsequential, or Toovey did a great job in getting Manly to the finals. How can you say Toovey does not have the ability if you're claiming their performance was Hasler based. I suggest your logic is seriously flawed.

I dont deny that at all 81 Paling. But you are talking about an incident that occurred after the horse had bolted. Manly were the primary partner in that agreement as determined by the League. Neither club really wanted the amalgamation but it was forced upon them, because the Super League War had almost sucked them both dry. of funds and Norths were in serious debt because of the failed Central Coast deal.. A similar problem is right now developing between Wests and Balmain and dont be surprised if they also split and only one club continues. The deal between Manly and Norths that was put in place was that the League said Manly could continue to be part of the League but Norths couldnt unless they agreed to an amalgamation with Manly (check your history). Manly accepted the deal because financially like Norths they were shot and didnt think they could continue alone. But management infighting developed between the two parties as is happening now between West and Balmain, and Manly, who owned the franchise title as DETERMINED BY THE LEAGUE, withdrew from the agreement and found the money to continue alone. Norths were broke 81Paling. They couldnt get sponsorship at that time and were in debt relying almost entirely on their licensed club for survival. Personally I would have been quite happy if the Northern Eagles affectionately called 'The Beagles' had survived. The fans were prepared to accept it, the players accepted it, but the administrators running the show were at logger heads during a very difficult financial period as to the direction they would be heading. BOTH were at fault at that stage. But the decision by Manly to go it alone, which they had been originally told by the LEAGUE that they could, was because Manly held the franchise title Just as a reminder the LEAGUE (and Manly were well out of influencing them at this stage) made a determination that a club had to meet certain pre-requisites to be allowed to hold a title based on a range of factors to do with the club. Both Souths and Norths, along with the Mariners, Adelaide and Perth were determined by the League not to meet that criteria and were not offered a franchise. Only Souths, under George Piggins leadership, challenged that and finally won. Norths for reasons you'll have to discuss with your leaders, chose not to. It was a bad period, and as I said most Manly supporters I know, and I know the Manly club agrees, totally support Norths moving to the Central Coast. Manly didnt make the decisions you are blaming them for, other than to choose to go it alone with THEIR franchise following disputes between the parties. Just in conclusion, there have been two Manlys operating in the League. The Manly prior to 1990 was wealthy and often grabbed players from other clubs to assist it in winning premierships. I agree it was unfair but the rules allowed it. The Manly post 1996 is financially one of the also rans. They lose far more first grade players to other clubs than they obtain. The wealthy clubs these days are Parramatta, Canterbury, Sydney City etc and notice they are grabbing in fact more players from other clubs than Manly ever did. But people prefer to trun a blind eye to that because irrationally Manly are the team to be hated.

Sorry Bearfax meant to add my comment below onto your comment as we can debate feroshiously but ther is a certain decorum and eticate that one must observe and replying to the comment made is just that, apolygise for the oversight but, NOTHING ELSE, heheee.

Are you telling me that on the 3rd of June 2002 the Manly controlled board of the Northern Eagles did not state that the name of the club would revert back to the Manly Sea Eagles and that the remainder of the 2002 season matches would be played at Brookvale, because if you are you r wrong. Time to stop minding your umbridges drink a cup of concrete and harden up. Your club does nothing for the growth of the game despite the fact you win premierships which should mean that the club grows but you don't. Time to face facts if after winning a premiership your club cries poor the following year you are in trouble. Like it or lump it bear facts Manly's announcment on the 3rd of June 2002 was the final knifing to the bears after they had taken players from them for years and as you can tell Manly's head is soon to be on the chopping block and let me re-assure you there are many bears fans out there who will love to see that axe snap the little birdie's neck.

81 Paling, you really do have a balance problem dont you. 'Parasite on the game'... As a Manly supported I take umbrage to that comment. We dont go disparaging what ever team it is you support, why should you denigrate a proud club that has won 8 premierships since its struggling inception in 1947. Just because Manly isnt your favourite club doesnt mean you have to show bigotry and insult the club I and tens of thousands of other fans have followed and loved all these years. Grow up son and show a little good sportsmanship. By insulting Manly, you insult me and other supporters who follow the team. If you cant make civil comments then dont comment and keep your bigotry to yourself. Rugby League as a competition, especially with the challenges posed by Union, soccer and Oz Rules, doesnt need ugliness from within. Have something positive to say or say noting.. Manly had nothing to do with the demise of Norths. That was caused by the Super League War, and might I add had Manly gone across to the Super League side, many clubs in Sydney would have ceased to exist. Itt was primarily Manly that held the other teams together. Norths lost out because of promises made by the League for its move to the Central Coast and big money they spent on that move, and then being dumped by the League. If you're pointing your finger at Arthurson,, well the problem occurred AFTER he had left and Manly had almost no say in what followed. You want to blame teams....look at Brisbane, which was the main force behind SuperLeague, and Canterbury (and Penrith and Cronulla) who got in on the Super League business, made huge bucks out of it, while teams like Manly and Norths almost went broke. The fact that Manly and Norths couldnt get along as a joint operation is just unfortunate. And further, most Manly supporters I know have always been fully supportive of Norths on the Central Coast. And just to put things in perspective, since I began watching League in the mid 60's, I took careful note of crowd attendances over the years, Manly ALWAYS had a larger average crowd attendance than Norths, usually by 1000-3000 average per game. Of course if Norths had been given the opportunity to move to the Central Coast, your crowd figures would probably have exploded. I dont know why they are blocking the move and I know Manly support the move to overcome the bitterness. Manly arent your enemy lad.

Manly have always been good at recruitment and despite appearances they always have evolved to start a season with clear, decisive and insight fully positive administrative purpose (I say despite appearances due to the Des Hassler debacle) and their management has always fought each other and everyone else to the death of their decision making. They are so good at it Norths never stood a chance, they owned Phillip st NSWRL HQ and they can still influence far beyond their standings in the League. They can still attract the best as they have always done and have done here with John's but, when your fans do not travel, you r unable to attract supporter on the other side of the Spit bridge or the Roseville bridge (left alone the harbor bridge), your ground struggles to hold 20,000 these days. It is time to start thinking when the great Jack Gibson mentioned the first step towards a premiership is a healthy back office what does the future hold for Manly and the fact they seem unable to expand?. I would hate to see them try to expand up the Coast to Gosford now that the new commission has made it clear they are not interested in expansion and despite the fact I personally would be actively opposed to such a move and disgusted at the lack of respect that this would show for the Bears and Greg Florimo personally there may come a time when this is the only option that Manly (whom have always been a parasite on the game) have.

I'm with you Campaign, what gallop did to you guys was over the top and it needs putting right.

But that was riding on the back of Dessie's legacy. As that legacy crumbles, Manly will need to increasingly rely on Toovey's abilities as a coach and as I said, I don't think that those abilites are quite top drawer.

If you're working with tinkler for the money it is probably time to find a new boss

I wasn't suggesting that Manly haven't been successful at any time in the juniors. Its just in general terms Manly has tended to be at the bottom end of junior comps over the years, 2009-10 were unusual years in that they had what was described by the club as something similar to when Menzies, Gartner, Kosef etc all appeared at once in the early 90s. 2009 was when Buhrer, Hodkinson, Cherry-Evans, Foran, Lussick, Oldfield, Hopoate were all coming through at the same time... a rare event in Manly's history. But generally, unless Manly have a decent recruitment drive, they have no chance of competing with the likes of Brisbane, Parramatta, Wests-Balmain Canterbury, St George Illawarra, Newcastle, Penrith who have much greater demographics and therefore juniors to choose from. What Manly seem to have learned, is that given they are no longer one of the 'money' teams in the comp, they have to be far more careful with their salary cap dollar. They have learned from Melbourne in particular, that the best way to recruit these days is not to waste your money on high profile players, except the exceptional and essential ones you've brought through the ranks, but to look for top ranking juniors and ensure you have a well structured development plan for them. Manly have been doing this for almost the past 15 years (contrary to what the ill informed such as Oikee would have you believe). Interesting that Manly is now one of the clubs that are harvested of their better top grade players now, rather than the other way back in the 70s and 80s. Just in the past two years they've lost the Lussick brother, Hopoate brothers, Oldfield, Whare, Harrison, Hodkinson, Tony Williams, Drinkwater, Robinson etc many because they could not compete with the monies being offered elsewhere. So Manly this year are continuing their strategy of late of replenishing their junior stocks rather than seek high profile replacements and bring in people like Johns and earlier 'Blocker' to upskill them.

Sure, Manly has had a lean couple of years in NYC and NSW Cup but they were both NYC minor premiers and QLD Cup premiers in 2009. Swings and roundabouts.

Johns is not at Manly just because of Cherry-Evans and Foran, though my understanding is that one of the factors leading to Foran staying was because Manly were prepared to offer Johns a p/t coaching contract..Johns influence on them was obvious in 2011, when he was last giving Manly some assistance and it was noted that they went off the boil when he was absent the following year. It is obvious that he adds an extra quality to their play, and like all players in all sports, it is always an advantage to learn from a master in their particular craft. No, not to make another Johns but to enhance and effectively develop the skills they have. But Johns is also there to assist in the development and skill training of a couple of other youngsters not yet exposed to first grade. You see Manly has been on a recruitment drive picking up some of the cream of the juniors around the League. From those, there are four or five backs covering virtually every position in the back line who are proven classy juniors from the NYC and central coast, who will each benefit from Johns input. Its all about raising their skill level and with Toovey, Johns and Cliff Lyons assisting their development, they will receive much assistance in this regard.

Hornblower by name, hornblower by nature it seems. You criticise me, yet then state "I’ll take your point to a degree". Real cred ight there! I'm not saying one cannot be coached in cues, and develop a better understanding for reading the game - of course thats possible ... I'm saying dont expect Johns to be a miracle worker and create another him! As per under good coaches - DCE & Foran's game will develop under Johns - but he's not the shining white light Manly fans are making him out to be.

Toovey in his ROOKIE year took Manly to the prelim final. Bit early to judge whether he is an elite coach or not!

Haha that was 2012 and Manly's worse performance of the year. Still it wasn't an embarrassing 40 Nil loss in a grand final eh ;-) Father time will be catching up with Cameron Smith, Cooper Cronk & Billy Slater soon... I look forward to the Storm being also rans.

Anakin, that is absolute tripe. Vision and being able to read a game don't just exist, what rubbish. Of course some players have these skills more so than others but quality coaching can certainly improve these skills. I'll take your point to a degree, of course Joey Johns is not going to be able to turn say Kris Keating into an elite half just like he couldn't with Sean Rudder. But guys like DCE and Foran are high quality players already and what Johns can impart to players at this high level can improve their vision and ability to read a game.

The real problem at Manly is Tooves. He just isn't a top class coach. They had some rough luck in 2012 so they should go better in 2013 but I still reckon they are riding on the back of Hasler's legacy. As that slowly gets eroded, we will see what Toovey can do. I think they will continue to be a top eight side but their days of competing in the finals are done for a bit.

Well DAVE your appraisal is interesting but a little ill informed and I wonder in a year or so, who will be seen to have got the better deal, Manly or Canterbury. As an example, Manly thought the world was falling in when Hodkinson left them after a very good initial year at Manly. But along came Cherry-Evans and now one wonders who got the better deal, especially as that was one of the factors that kept Foran at the club. 2012 was a very difficult year for Manly. Lost their coach, half their training squad, their highly respected recruitment officer, the Board was in disarray, over half the team were not signed up for 2013, long term injuries and suspensions to Tony Williams, David Williams, Foran, Glen Stewart, Matai, King etc and a coach thrown in at the last moment to start from scratch and take over an increasingly fragmented club. Toovey was a great Manly half and captain and he showed those same qualities in 2012, by getting Manly within one game of the grand final. I personally expected 8th place and most judges agreed, yet here we are. Manly's back end contracts are now virtually addressed. They've signed back the cream of their squad for several years. Despite their poor showing in the NSW Cup and NYC, they have three or four outstanding juniors who will play first grade and two who will probably go higher, such is the assessment of them. Despite Manly's loss of Cleal, his replacement, and some forward thinking by Toovey and the Board have secured five journeymen workhorses between the ages of 23-28 and four of the cream of the juniors backs and four of the cream of the junior forwards aged between 18-21 in the NYC and country leagues. That's a team of new players and another couple from Manly's juniors to be back up for 2013's first grade team. Several will no doubt be seen in that grade during the year and several have representative class. And now Manly have gained the exclusive specialist coaching of Andrew Johns, who had already proved his worth in 2011 by getting both Foran and Cherry-Evans playing out of their skin. Dont know about you but as I said, I wonder who got the better deal. I suspect Toovey could eclipse his mentor. What do you think Dave?.

The thing with good halves is, sure they have some silky skills with the pill, and some even have a great kicking game, but the thing that sets GREAT halves aside from good halves is none of these things - it's vision! As great a player as Joey was skill wise - it was his vision, and his ability to do the unpredictable, that set him apart from the pack and made him great. Unfortunately, IMO, vision and the innate ability to really (and i mean really) read a game, cannot be coached - it simply exists within the great players. John's involvement in previous years may have helped players in premiership winning teams become better skilled players, but it didnt make them great great players per se!

hello tim , u there if u read this Storm put 40 on them, should have been sixty but i think Cameron smith missed a few. Great team manly. i hope they go just as well in 2013, with Cameron Smith converting a few more this time around.