Are our top sports medical staff competent?

Malo agree. Two years in a row McCabe is reporting back to the Brumbies with bad injuries. Deans still picked him when his shoulder was busted at the RWC rather then calling up Matt Giteau who was prepared for a call up. Now this time McCabe has a fractured neck. As far as I can recall he has never picked up an injury at the Brumbies and we don't use him as a battering ram.

Totally agree, harden up, they are gym hard but not match or contact hard like the ABs. They are also rushed back after injuries . Should only pick 100% fit players with no niggles. It is a bit rich blaming the medicos for the injuries and our performance. Playing a battering ram game probably does not help.

Fair enough GRS, I can understand that POV but the science just doesn't support your theory. Anyway, you're right about there being no pont in getting worked up over it. So we differ on our opinion of the usefullness of weights. No dramas. At the end of the day we all want the same thing...To see great rugby games.

Bakkies, I think are closer in opinion that may seem. I'm not a fan of just doing weights for the sake of it. But I am in favour of using sports science in getting the best out of players. Do acutally know for a fact that the AB's do less weights than the Wallabies ? Just going by how they look isnt really an answer. I donlt think you would be able to do a proper comparison because you don't have that info. How do you know that Pocock spends to much time doing bicep curls ? Do you know his weight training program ?. When I played my build was such that people thought all I did was bicep curls and calf raises coz thats what they looked like. When in fact I just did weights twice a week at 30 - 40 mins (including warm uo and down) a session. And I just did 3 exercises. Bench Press, Deadlift, Squat. Plus I spent almost every spare minute playing touch footy, basketball and volleyball. No road running. The point i'm trying to make is that at that time alot of my family and friends thought I was doing 2 - 3 hour sessions 3 times a week when I was actually only lifting about 1 hour a week, the rest of the time was spent playing sport and having fun. (oh to be free of any responsibilty). Just going on looks alone doesn't tell the full story. Weight training is just another tool for players. That alone cannot get them success on the field but nowdays with the nature of the game is pretty mandatory. The key is knowing how much is enough. And unless you actually have the necessary info it's pretty hard to judge..

Exactly. John Hayes and McCaw have proven that their other methods of increasing your strength levels outside of gym work. Some of the best forwards are farmers Bakkies, Juan Smith, McCaw, O'Brien, Harinordoquy, Hayman and neither of these players are gym monkeys. If Chisholm hit rucks like Bakkies in his younger days would he have needed that unnecessary gym work?

Not one of the expert comments from experts has been able to decry my opinion. Bakkies and I have much the same opinion and we seem to have some logic in what we espouse. I have no doubt that gym work is necessary but not to the point that it is in the modern game. I have cited examples but reading what the experts say there doesn't seem to be examples of where lots of gym work has improved a player other than the obvious front rower but even then that is arbitrary. It may get him to add a bit more weight in the scrum but does it assist him around the park and add to his stamina. I do not want to get into a slanging match and I'm sure that the experts are all much more educated than I am, as I am only going on what I've seen and experienced over the last 40+ years

So the player lied yet the blame is being laid at someone elses feet? I'm sorry, but the liar is the one who needs to take the blame here. If it wasn't for the fact it is three in the morning over here in the UK, I would write a proper answer going through pain and injury in sport and how players are coerced into playing through those both directly and indirectly by many different actors.

So you reckon Pocock is naturally built with his oversized biceps right? He is carrying far too much unnecessary bulk. Of course Hooper does weights but like McCaw and Smith he doesn't go overboard and is more natural for his size. Any coach that considers putting Hooper on Pocock's strength and conditioning programming should get sacked. Mark Chisholm was the ultimate gym monkey. Did it make him a better Rugby player? The answer is no. Neuan, BOKSMART is working a treat isn't it. The All Blacks clearly spend more on proper Rugby skills, running in to space and managing the contact situations then the Springboks, you only have to look at the results and their style of play. Their fitness is far superior too. ''First off all ALL the players will spent time in a gym. No one spent more than the other because the main function of muscle, from a sport and exercise perspective is to contract and generate force.'' So you are saying that Pierre trains like tarzan, plays like Jane Spies does the same amount of gym work as Sean O'Brien and Imanol Harinordoquy (both who are superior Rugby players)...

First off all ALL the players will spent time in a gym. No one spent more than the other because the main function of muscle, from a sport and exercise perspective is to contract and generate force. What you are referring to is one aspect of the different training rugby players do. Apart from the physical characteristics associated with success in rugby, performance also depends on skill, which is the combined interaction of agility, balance, co-ordination, power, speed and reaction time. That is called Motor co-ordination aka skill. Whilst motor coordination can be trained, the superior decision-making ability that some players have, and which make them appear more skilled, is probably an intrinsic characteristic rather than being a characteristic acquired by training. So some have more than others.What you referred up there is match fitness. Match fitness can not be acquired by any training or anything. It can only be acquired by playing in matches. there is a fine line between getting sufficient “game time” to develop “match fitness”, and playing too much with insufficient time for recovery and regeneration. Another consideration for developing “match fitness” is that the risk of injury is always high during a match compared to a practice. So NZ do not go practice to run into gaps while the others gym. Impossible. While SA Australia might run into collisions the NZ players still need to defend and they will be part of the collisions just as much as SA, Australia or England or who ever they are playing. They still need that muscle to protect them as body fat mainly protect your organs. I suggest you go look up a thing called BOKSMART. Most SA coaches and old players complete courses in it. It is training to minimize injury When Richie was a young boy or back in 1995 there were far less rucks and mauls and much more scrums as well as the ball was in play less. They did also kick more. So players have to train differently than those era's as there is much more confrontations and wrestling for the ball today. Just to give you a indication in 1968 the avg player weight was 76 today it is 85kg's. Reporters write what the interviewer tell them. Mike Lambert wrote part of the Boksmart program. Here is a piece of his Autobiogrraphy I think this guy know much about the subject. Mike Lambert is an Associate Professor in the MRC/UCT Research Unit for Exercise Science and Sports Medicine, Sports Science Institute of South Africa, and the Editor-in-Chief of the South African Journal of Sports Medicine. You can these for sources 1. BATTERHAM, A.M., AND HOPKINS, W.G. Making meaningful inferences about magnitudes. Sportscience 9:6-13. 2005 2. BODDINGTON, M.K., LAMBERT, M.I., ST CLAIR GIBSON, A., AND NOAKES, T.D. Reliability of a 5-m multiple shuttle test. J Sports Sci 19:223-228. 2001 3. BROOKS, J.H., FULLER, C.W., KEMP, S.P., AND REDDIN, D.B. A prospective study of injuries and training amongst the England 2003 Rugby World Cup squad. Br J Sports Med 39:288-293. 2005 4. CARLSON, B.R., CARTER, J.E., PATTERSON, P., PETTI, K., ORFANOS, S.M., AND NOFFAL, G.J. Physique and motor performance characteristics of US national rugby players. J Sports Sci 12:403-412. 1994 5. CARROLL, T.J., RIEK, S., AND CARSON, R.G. Neural adaptations to resistance training: implications for movement control. Sports Med 31:829-840. 2001 6. CHILIBECK, P.D., SALE, D.G., AND WEBBER, C.E. Exercise and bone mineral density. Sports Med 19:103-122. 1995 7. CRONIN, J.B., AND HANSEN, K.T. Strength and power predictors of sports speed. J Strength Cond Res 19:349-357. 2005 8. DELECLUSE, C., VAN COPPENOLLE, H., WILLEMS, E., VAN LEEMPUTTE, M., DIELS, R., AND GORIS, M. Influence of high-resistance and high-velocity training on sprint performance. Med Sci Sports Exerc 27:1203-1209. 1995 9. DEUTSCH, M.U., KEARNEY, G.A., AND REHRER, N.J. Time - motion analysis of professional rugby union players during match-play. J Sports Sci 25:461-472. 2007 10. DEUTSCH, M.U., MAW, G.J., JENKINS, D., AND REABURN, P. Heart rate, blood lactate and kinematic data of elite colts (under-19) rugby union players during competition. J Sports Sci 16:561-570. 1998 11. DURANDT, J., DU TOIT, S., BORRESEN, J., HEW-BUTLER, T., MASIMLA, H., JAKOET, I., AND LAMBERT, M.I. Fitness and body composition profiling of elite 16 and 18 year South African rugby union players. S A J Sports Med 18:38-45. 2006 12. DURANDT, J., TEE, J.C., PRIM, S.K., AND LAMBERT, M.I. Physical fitness components associated with performance in a multiple sprint test. International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance 1:78-88. 2006 13. DUTHIE, G., PYNE, D., AND HOOPER, S. Applied physiology and game analysis of rugby union. Sports Med 33:973-991. 2003 14. DUTHIE, G., PYNE, D., AND HOOPER, S. Time motion analysis of 2001 and 2002 super 12 rugby. J Sports Sci 23:523-530. 2005 15. DUTHIE, G.M., PYNE, D.B., HOPKINS, W.G., LIVINGSTONE, S., AND HOOPER, S.L. Anthropometry profiles of elite rugby players: quantifying changes in lean mass. Br J Sports Med 40:202-207. 2006 16. DUTHIE, G.M., PYNE, D.B., MARSH, D.J., AND HOOPER, S.L. Sprint patterns in rugby union players during competition. J Strength Cond Res 20:208-214. 2006 17. EAVES, S., AND HUGHES, M. Patterns of play of international rugby union teams before and after the introduction of professional status. International Journal of Performance Analysis in Sport 3:103-111. 2003 18.

Bakkies, You're missing my point in when I said "All things being equal a good big man will always beat a good small man". The important part of that quote is "All things being equal". The AB's train for contact but are just better at finding space. 'Spaces not faces' is how Toutai Kefu used to decribe it. Your 'naturally built' point also doesn't make sense. Every rugby player (including Hooper and the naturally buuilt players) take sports supplements and do weights. The diference is that each one is personally tailored for the players position and role in the team. The halfback won't need to do as much weight as the prop for instance. Players can get injured when they don't do weights correctly, just like they do if they don't tackle correctly..

Another article http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7717820/Superior-fitness-the-All-Blacks-foundation

Watch the matches, look at the build of the players, read the comments from coaches and players (even on here). The All Blacks players are naturally built sure they do weights work but Rugby practice and fitness comes first. Read this article about McCaw he was all Rugby technique as a youngster. The second article he mentions that he got too a few injuries as a youngster through weight training. Will try and find the article about wrestling sheep. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/newzealand/8777268/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-All-Blacks-captain-Richie-McCaw-still-setting-highest-standards-ahead-of-his-100th-cap.html http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/3080833/Richie-McCaws-burning-desire You look at Hooper's physique in comparison to Pocock's. How natural does Pocock look? Like George Smith in the past he didn't really need to bulk up by lifting weights. Smith never got any leg, shoulder and arm injuries (Smith's rival Phil Waugh was massive in size). Pocock is naturally strong but for some reason he was allowed to get too big by using weights.

How do you know that? Are you guessing or can you provide proof?

Damien, the kiwis practice and practice every aspect of Rugby on the pitch while their Australian and South African counterparts are racking up records in the gym. The Wallabies and Springboks are training to take contact while in comparison the All Blacks play for space and don't suck themselves in to the contact situation. They play with more pace too. Australia used to be the trendsetter when it came to applying skills, fitness and rugby smarts but we are a long way behind now. ''All things being equal a good big man will always beat a good small man..'' The South African mentality right there. Look at Michael Hooper. Small backrower but he makes metres by using correct body height technique and pumps his legs. That's under 10s stuff. Now in comparison to Pocock who is a gym monkey he doesn't have the same impact as the more naturally built Hooper.

GRS, You're comparing Apples and Oranges with the props of yesteryear. The game is much different from back then. I don't know of a single coach that wants his players to be bodybuilders rather than strong footy players. The gym work that the players do has a purpose, and the science backs it up. A reason why injuries happen more now days is becasue of the intensity and pace of the game. Thats what happens at that level when people push their physical limits..

I'm not sure your theory on conditioning will cut it in this professional era. The reason most rugby/league players do weights is because of the contact. Thats why weights isn't so big in football (soccer). Doing weights combined with a proper conditioning program is far better and safer than running into solid contact all day. Trying to tone up in the off season is pointless. Being bigger,stronger,faster, more agile etc. will help a player alot more than being toned. All things being equal a good big man will always beat a good small man..

Personally I don't subscribe to the 'too much gym work' argument. I'm confident that the Wallabies have good enough programs for the players. My theory is that the data is interpreted 'correctly' but then a few realities dawn on the Australian Teams in that they have no depth to cover Wallabies that are in need of a rest. I also believe that the Super Teams and the Wallaby set up do not work together well enough for a common goal. To me at least it seems that the Australian Teams have spread the talent too thin and that has a knock on effect that it is harder for Australain Teams to properly cover themselves. We can lay the blame on JON for this BUT I tend to agree with his long term goals but thats for another thread..

Bingo. The French and Kiwis aren't gym monkeys like Australia, England and SA and their players play to avoid contact rather then run in to it. I am not sure if the ARU's talent identification program is that the tests we did at school from the ASC (sports commission) to show what sports you should play.

ARU is not for profit. The money it generates goes back in to the game.