Professionalism the answer to Japan's dominance of Asian Rugby

Not to be unfounded to say that a few years ago at a tournament in Moscow Enisey-STM beat defending champion of Japan club Suntory with a score of 36-10. Of course now almost completely the other players and both teams have become stronger. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkw_3qV1KAI

Guys, why do not you concider Russia to participate in Asian competitions? Was grown at the same time because the fact is in Europe and Asia, and is the country of the Pacific. Theoretically, the Russian national team can play in three different zones simultaneously (ENC, 5AN and Pacific Cup). Matches European tournaments we play in European part and Asian tournaments in Asian (Siberia and the Far East). Now, unfortunately, because of the policy FIRA we all play their home games in Sochi in winter - and there is no rugby fans and always empty stands. But in the 90s and early 00's, we played a few times in Siberia during the period from May to September and harvested from 10 to 20,000 in the stands against such teams Portugal, Romania, USA, Japan, Italy and Ireland. I can tell you that the two strongest club based in Krasnoyarsk (Central Siberia) Enisey-STM and Krasny Yar. And they have long been looking for the opportunity to participate in international tournaments (Amlin Cup or Japanese Top League). They have by the standards of the championship of Russia the largest budgets (5 and 4.5 million euros), in addition to Russian players several foreign players with a very good level of experience of playing in the Super Rugby and Heineken Cup, for example, Campbell Johnstnone, Toby Morland, Glen Horton and others. But you have to take into account the climate of Siberia - Winter lasts from November to March (April). We can play at home 5AN and Pacific Cup, but in the Japanese Top league only be allowed if play all home games in Krasnoyarsk (September-October), and then all guest games in Japan (November-December).

I think the best thing the Japan rfu could do for their game is to force their top players to play overseas. Look at what having large numbers playing overseas has done for Argentina. Japan produces many fine players but I think mentally they will never take that next step until they all immerse themselves in tougher leagues than their own.

Good points you make. Now Asia in the middle and upper middle classes, are suffering form an obesity and diabetes epidemic, since more and more are eating high sugar diets. And many now eat far more red-meat , much bigger consumptions than ever before. And when you have big populations, you only need a small percentage to be big. Look at China in Basketball , producing lots of tall talent. I know plenty of Indian people and korean people who are big, you wouldn't want to mess with them Basically the big boppers or athletic ones the cream of the crop, of any human genetics or populations or tribes are the same anywhere, they are talented, and can hold there own. And when a country like India or China has 1.2 billion , you only need a fraction of that to be suited to rugby. India has a a strong wrestling culture, and also play the sport kabaddi kabaddi, which is very similar to British Bulldog. Pakistan now have a domestic comp going and have many big athletic people, and Sri Lanka are on the rise, as are south korea who are in the top 30, and kazakhstan. Just be patient and give it time i say.

The genetic potential for height and weight for Asians isn't greatly different from other ethnic groups. The biggest contributor to them being perceived as smaller is malnutrition, especially in childhood. Large parts of Asia have not been overly food secure until recently, and parts are still far behind western nations. Young people in China's cities, where food security issues have long since given way to food abundance, are of similar size with western populations. If they got into rugby like they did the Olympics, and bought expertise across all levels of development then they'd be able to crack the top 10 in short order, and compete on an equal basis physically. As the rest of Asia provides better nutrition levels across all levels of society, we'll see even less variance, and the perception of the small Asian will disappear.

Disagree. In soccer USA 94 kick started USA soccer a bit. -Japan is doing fine against a lot of the next rung Tier 2 teams. -They beat Georgia in Georgia last year in November 2012. -There Pacific nations cue results, they only narrowly lost last year to Samoa, Tonga, and FIji all 3 teams at full strength. They have beaten these teams before too. -From memory Japan VS Canada was a draw at the RWC 2011. RWC 2019 is going to expose rugby to a massive new audience , just as Japan/Korea 2002 soccer world cup did. Since then both Japan/Korea soccer have never looked back. -It's being marketed as Asia's world cup , and if you can just tap into a fraction of that 4 billion Asian population that is enough. And some world cup matches are gonna be staged in Singapore too, so good for South-east Asian rugby exposure. -6 years is a good amount of time to develop more. Japan are making some big strides. but more needs to be done in re-shaping there pro comp, and also the under-20's etc. Japan easily has the economy and population to succeed at rugby. They just need the right domestic comp format, and a good strategic plan, and there on there way.

At the end of the day, Japan are in a hard situation They well and truly smash their local opponents, but get dominated when they play at the world cup The IRB made a massive error in giving 2019 World Cup hosting rights to Japan, the game barely registers a blip in Japan and that isnt going to change when the likes of Argentina, Georgia and Scotland smash the Japanese, let alone the All Blacks or Springboks

Korean national team are mostly Army guys with some pros that are playing in the Japan comp. The decline of Korea a few years back was because of people trying to mess around with who can represent Korea...eg they stopped allowing the military guys and the pro guys play in the team to 'try to grow more rugby for people playing in the local club comp'........ What happened? Korea died in the A5N, dropped to 2nd Div, lost media coverage and sponsors....that lasted 1 or 2 seasons then they got the army/pro guys back in the team and what-do-you-know? they are going well again, more media and the game is growing again. Whats the lesson here? protecting for the lesser players to get a national jersey doesnt work,

Ra. Good idea but the problem with protecting is it also gets countries nowhere. I can give examples of this in practice if you like. Sounds like you are assuming all Asian people are small? I've played all over Asia and the biggest problem isn't about finding people of size. Sure, if were talking about Asian nations against Australia or NZ then size becomes an issue but who really believes that HK, Singapore and Thailand are ever going to be at that level? nobody. While I 100% understand your point about trying to make it more local the reality is you are not talking one union/culture here. Lets say they want to limit the weight. Good idea? Nope. You forget that inside the countries of SEA there are multiple ethnic sets. Chinese, Malay, Indian, Tamil etc etc. Each one of these ethnicities has different typical body types.....so if you limit weight, you are going to give one group a massive advantage over the rest. Not always but on average you will. OK lets just weight limit foreigners? What do you mean by that? Should the Indonesian guy who moved here and never wants to go home be hit by this? Should an expat kid whos lived here most of his life and calls it home be pushed aside? Then we need to talk about international comps... You think the Sri Lankas and Malaysians (heavy set people) will agree to weight restrictions because Singapore and Thailand want it? No way. SEA is an amazingly complex place made up of many many peoples all her for different reasons. Creating more rules only magnifies the problems because all you do its officially segregate people.

Some of the clubs in HK (and other parts of SE Asia) have some semi-pro players already, professional coaches and the HKRFU is cashed up. Yes, a lot of the players are like you say, professionals playing rugby for fun. But HK a pretty good comp, they have great facilities and bucket loads of cash. Its the next logical step for professional rugby in Asia but must be tacked on to Japan as WCR suggests. Perhaps the HK national side of the top to clubs in HK play is the Japan comp.

Totally agree. Having Japan there really makes a joke of the whole thing. No reason why the winner of the A5N cant play Japan at the end of the comp or maybe Japan only enter every 4th year for RWC qualification..

Jones is only continuing the work that Kirwan began. The Top League is a semi-pro competition, but a lot of the jobs that guys have are pretty menial. Tony Brown was in the paper recently saying how one prop's job was to chase away dogs that came near a factory or something. Apparently, it the couple of years that he'd done it only one or two dogs every strayed onto the property. In the lower tier competitions they're proper workers but having an actual contract with a company is better than being a contracted pro to the JRFU if you consider your post-rugby career.

Player numbers dont really mean much ... the USA for example has more rugby players than any country except France and England, but it is not exactly a rugby superpower, as it´s players are spread out over huge distances, it is an amatuer sport, and there is no meaningful high level elite competition.

Japan´s involvement in the Asian 5N, like Argentinas in the South American Championship, is here to stay, because it is part of the RWC qualifiying process and the IRBs wish to develop rugby and expose all countries to regular competition with annual, regional championships. Perhaps the format of the 5N needs to be changed with it becoming a 4N, and the top 2 teams from that competition then playoff against Japan for the title. While Japan has always won, Japan has to have some involvement as it is a regional championship.

It certainly seems that Japan's involvement in the A5N needs to be re-evaluated by the IRB. A clear plan needs to formed to find the most appropriate Japanese team to take part in that event. My suggestion would be Junior Japan. Let them develop young players and allow them to show their potential against Asia's best nations (rather than taking a hammering from the Super Rugby academy teams). The IRB has a proven track record of entering development teams to allow even competition: Churchill Cup - England Saxons, NZ Maori, Ireland A and Scotland A Nations Cup - Argentina Jaguars, Italy A, Emerging Springboks and Ireland Wolfhounds Pacific Nations Cup - Australia A, Junior All Blacks and NZ Maori It appears time for the IRB to put a more appropriate Japanese side into the A5N so they can develop young players. They can then enter a more senior team into the Pacific Nations Cup, against hopefully top strength opposition like Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, USA and Canada. If/when they can start to really compete at that level then you can consider entry to the Rugby Championship. But that level is realistically decades away. I don't know if many Roarers have read the comments of Eddie Jones, but he has categorically stated that Japanese Rugby is stuck in a time warp. There are loads of players and lot's of corporate money, but it is so badly managed that it loses all of it's potential. There is next to no professional training programs to prepare players for the physical demands required of elite level athletes, so only a handful of players are truly ready. That is changing with Jones, who is now plucking the best talents out of University rugby and ensuring they are properly groomed for professionalism. But it will take time to overhaul the local culture. To move upwards Japan needs an Argentina-like evolution to their game. That is, they need to convert the strong amateur culture and get the top athletes into fully pro teams. The Argies used the Top14 to groom their players, partly because there is no local pro comp. Japan has the Top League, but this has restrictions in it's professionalism and is hampered by the very fact it is a corporation owned/sponsored league. It means not all players are pro's and it means they march to a totally unique drum beat to global rugby. Lot's of long training sessions and not many full time pro players. The Top League is not actually an acceptable environment and therefore I think Japanese entry to Super Rugby is a must. They need full time pro teams with foreign coaches and players to show the locals what is required. The Top League is not fully pro and should take on the role of the Currie Cup/ITM Cup in developing local players. These guys can then go on to play Super Rugby (the seasonal window is PERFECT) with the company teams helping to sponsor clubs on a less wholesale basis. This will see a robust pathway to produce world class players on a large enough basis to compete at Tier 1 level. Junior Japan could play in the A5N while the top senior players take part in Super Rugby (as the two comps heavily overlap). Then, once Super Rugby finishes the PNC and RC start up. It all aligns very well in the rugby calendar. If Japanese Super Rugby professionalism can be expanded in quantity over time then maybe more Chinese, Koreans etc can become foreign imports and give those nations some stars pro players also. But it will all take time. Ideally the 2019WC will be the catalyst for these changes, because I don't see it changing or bearing fruit before this event.

Most of the Kazak squad ply their trade in the Russian Championship so they really don't necessarily need such a competition. The way I've approached it is too find teams that are roughly at the same level of competition but that also have the potential to improve further. From my perspective that effectively means those located in the general vicinity of South East Asia plus Sri Lanka. I think a competition compromising Sri Lanka, Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines, Chinese Taipei, HK and Singapore (I cannot believe I overlooked them) would be quite competitive from the beginning and over time.

winston I totally agree with you concerning both your points ,as I see it if Japan wants to compete in the 2019 World Cup I think they need two teams in Super Rugby come 2016 otherwise I don't see them becoming competitive enough to get anywhere near the quarter finals . This leads me to your next point which fits with your first point and that is maybe we need a global draft with teams keeping a core group of local players and the rest being sent out across the world to bolster other less well off teams like the proposed entry of teams from the USA, Canada and Argentina in 2016 . If we use the draft system we can make these new teams competitive from the get go and who knows maybe even look at other countries as well .

"Rugby is quite big in Japan" It's not really. It's just played in a lot of private high schools and universities, hence the playing numbers.

These things tend to get exaggerated to make the IRB feel like everything is pushing along nicely :-)) We need to consider these types of options. A permanent 14 round competition between HK, Singapore, Sri Lanka Phils, UAE, Kaz would go down very nicely IMO. Initially ARFU/IRB would need to fund it but over time TV coverage and sponsorship would make it break even to profitable. In the Phils we are having an internal discussion about the merits of building from the top down vs a grass roots up approach. We have been very successful with a team based on 'heritage' players living outside the phils. Problem is that it is much less effective at developing the game and we are trying to resolve the following point; is it better to take a step back in terms of the competitiveness of the national squad but to develop and use home grown talent rather than fly in a squad. Not an easy one to resolve given that we need to develop a rugby culture to make this a sustainable proposition. Japan is just to strong and would dominate this competition so they need to be considered in the context of Pacific Islands, North America, etc. HK is not far behind with their large expat population and solid financial position.

in basketball they now have that a south-east Asia basketball comp.