After going through the latest round of ITM Cup results over the weekend, and in two countries, a thought occurred to me regarding overseas players in New Zealand (sparked by a comment made by a fellow Roarer elsewhere, I happily admit).
Given the large number of Test players released to the major provinces during the All Blacks break, I couldn’t help feel how the usual Big Six (or more likely Big Four now) provinces benefit from the influx of their national players.
Of the 10 All Blacks released for ITM Cup duty in round three, six are playing for Canterbury, Wellington or Auckland – four provinces get one All Black each and four do without.
Given Kiwi concerns about overseas players flooding their team (a la EPL), perhaps one way to address this is to carefully farm out overseas signings to smaller teams which would lift the overall standard of competition.
I want to focus on the Bay Of Plenty Steamers (BOP) for the moment to illustrate my point.
The Steamers play Auckland at Eden Park this Saturday (and I am so there). Auckland is likely to be boosted by the return of Kevin Mealamu and Charles Piutau (but no Luatua) and normally that would pose problems for BOP.
But the Steamers would hopefully get Sam Cane back and they have ex-Wallaby Beau Robinson (as well as Rebels winger Kimami Sitauti and Wallaby-in-training Albert Anae). Suddenly the Steamers are looking a little more potent which means the chances of an upset result are greater which is good for the game.
By some accounts, the BOP-Hawke’s Bay game was a cracker with the result on the wire right down to fulltime in the 84th minute. (Worth noting Hawkes Bay will get All Black prop Ben Franks back to compliment former Rebels hooker Ged Robinson, incoming Rebels prop Max Lahiff, Force halfback Alby Mathewson and former Force halfback Chris Eaton.)
It’s worth noting that Otago’s upset win over Waikato (I saw the first 20 minutes in Bondi and was not surprised when I learned the result later) seemed to be based partly on ferocious ruck play (Wallabies take note) and the quickfire service of Japanese Test halfback Fiumaki Tanaka.
The benefits for these overseas players (ie Aussies) are obvious. It’s no coincidence that former Mako Peter Betham was called up to the Wallabies after a good season with the Waratahs.
In other ITM Cup news (for those who are interested), Otago defends the Ranfurly Shield on Sunday against Hawkes Bay. Round three starts tonight (Wednesday) with Wellington taking on North Harbour.
Round three draw (home sides first, RS denotes Ranfurly Shield challenge)
Wellington v North Harbour tonight (Wednesday), Canterbury v Waikato (Thursday), Counties Manukau v Tasman (Friday), Auckland v Bay of Plenty, North Harbour v Northland, Southland v Taranaki (all Saturday games), Wellington v Manawatu, Otago (RS) v Hawke’s Bay (all Sunday games)
RESULTS (home sides listed first)
Round 2
North Harbour 14 Counties Manukau 44, Taranaki 10 Wellington 29, Waikato 19 Otago 26 (RS), Tasman 13 Canterbury 28, Northland 13 Southland 9, Bay of Plenty 24 Hawke’s Bay 20, Manawatu 18 Auckland 21
Round 1
Counties Manukau 16 Wellington 55, Canterbury 30 Taranaki 6, Hawke’s Bay 45 Manawatu 18, Southland 15 Tasman 25, Waikato 31 v Northland 22 (RS), Auckland 27 North Harbour 20, Otago 32 Bay of Plenty 29.
Rugby Andrew
Roar Rookie
lachie,-- maybe or maybe not. Fact is, at the end of the day, NZ rugby can still surprise the wold because NZ rugby draws upon its domestic strengths in a country things after the likes of Beauden Barrett or TJ Perenara but better you should be surprised!
Rugby Andrew
Roar Rookie
atlas, apparently, they relied on an overdraft to get these players! From my own experience, not such a smart thing!
richard
Guest
Lachie - well said.
lachie
Guest
rugby andrew-well there you go I guess-spending that amount of money on a 19 year old ( although obviously talented My concern in all of this is in the end the emargence of the french club model dominated by bored billionaires who have no concern or care for the heritage or traditions of the game. They bring in just the stars ,local development at a lower level just goes out the window which I believe is already effecting french rugby although they are in a better position to survive this development than rugby unions the size of australia or Nz
atlas
Guest
The ITM Cup this weekend - a few to choose from - Today/Friday - Counties Manukau v Tasman Saturday - Auckland v Bay of Plenty, North Harbour v Northland, Southland v Taranaki Sunday - Wellington v Manawatu, Otago (Ranfurly Shield) v Hawke's Bay Keven Mealamu gets his first start for Auckland in five years, Charles Piutau also playing in AB's off-week The 'big one' is the last one, 4.35pm Sunday and Otago have their first defence of the Ranfurly Shield; 12,200 seats sold by Tuesday and aiming to have an attendance near 20,000 Hawke's Bay 'Magpies'will have their supporters making the 1050km round-trip. I liked these quotes from the supporters making the journey: "Through thick and thin," he said. Through the seasons when the Bay were mired in the Second Division through to the new era of Premiership and Championship. "It never mattered - what mattered was they were always our team and always will be." He said the average age of the group meant they didn't make as much noise as they did 20 years ago. "We used to cause a bit of trouble but we're a lot quieter now," he laughed. "It's all about the camaraderie - about supporting the Magpies."
atlas
Guest
but still buying overseas players - apart from the one mentioned above (he is Jake Heenan, Blues development squad, captain of the 2012 NZ U-20 team, signed to Connacht), Taranaki's 2012 ITM team lost Michael Bent (to Leinster and Ireland) and their captain Craig Clarke (he was also Chiefs captain 2013) to Connacht, where he'll join Heenan and their new coach, Pat Lam (ex Blues) Must still be some money around
Rugby Andrew
Roar Rookie
Lachie, worth noting that Irish pro rugby is in massive financial problems at the moment. They're going bankrupt.
Rugby Andrew
Roar Rookie
'fair enough. i'll cop that!
Ra
Guest
WRC you may want to look at the benefits to the Aussie economy having a Kiwi side in your local competitions against them not being there. A major Aussie paper ran an article about that a couple of years ago. There are no complaints because of the privatisation of the clubs means clubs are their own businesses, and hire staff who perform best for their business. It just happens that a massive feeder entity is sitting right next door, n the clubs money can buy who they want. The players they hire from NZ are professionals and quality players, some of note. The Storm and Queensland know that when the Warriors or a Kiwis rugby team is home to play in Melbourne , Brizzy or Gold Coast, the rowdy numbers in black tops fill the grand stand
Wii
Guest
Australia in no way created the Netball competition s please do not try an award them credit for that. If you care to do some research you will find that Australia had very little TV coverage of netball opposed to NZ where there was a lot. The ANZ championship is a joint venture by both countries
Lachie
Guest
WCR apolagies and I take your point you were not discussing rugby but in a more general sense- I think I was thrown by a previous post suggesting we now put a foreign team directly into the comp itself...... Addressing rugby andrew's suggestion welll the end result of that idea is the end of local interest and support for a international " money spinner " which would directly damage NZ rugby ( not saying the fish heads under Tew wouldn't go for it but it would the wrong move. I do think Aussies need to stop thinking of KIWI rugby as all powerful and frankly we just do not have the gas to carry you guys as well The population and economic base is small The poaching of now really young players 1st 15 school level is already everywhere not just from Australia but also the UK Our player salaries right up to AB LEVEL are significantly lower And the only way we deal with it is by keeping as many of our young players involved in the ITM and pray we notice them before somebody else does We lost the no 7 of the U 20 NZ team three months ago to an Irish club- he'll never come back- big money and a three year deal and Ireland get a player where all the development costs are sustained by the NZRU How sustainable is that as a business model
Sylvester
Guest
My point is, the Aussie codes you mentioned potentially would restrict foreign players if they could. The teams are privately owned so it's likely they can't. The NZRU control the ITM Cup, which allows them to take a more protectionist view. The ARL don't let Kiwis play State of Origin because they only want Aussie players getting access to that higher level of competition. That's the direct comparison. "if they were any good they should really chase opportunities in any other league than the ANBL". The ANBL is a essentially development league for players aspiring to better things - not unlike the ITM Cup.
Working Class Rugger
Roar Guru
When did I say NZ Rugby? What I said was, that NZ sporting organisations have had no issue attaching themselves to Australian competitions something Australian fans have had no issue with. That's even been expanded to NZ talent popping up in other teams outside of the likes of the Warriors, Phoenix and whatever the NBL team is called (I'm not a Basketball fan, so sue me) to the extent that there are as many as 4 to 5 kiwi's in most NRL squads and even more in their reserve (NSW Cup) and U20s structures. And yet, no Australian seems to have an issue with that even though they are taking spots away from locals. And yet, the mere presence of as it turns out 7 or 8 Australian players out of 14 squads of 30 odd players is seen as offence. It's just ridiculous myopic thinking at its worst. Furthermore, I suggest that if you are going to try and ask a cutting question, ensure you've read all the appropriate posts so that your point actually has some weight. Because if you did, you wouldn't have needed to ask that question as you'd have noticed I had never actually mentioned NZ Rugby utilising Australian structures, But hey, when in doubt attempt to move those goalposts.
Working Class Rugger
Roar Guru
I wasn't sure if it was Alo-Emile or Anae but I knew there were three Aussies playing for BOP. The limit may be only two on the field at any one time. I think that's most of them with the exception of Lahiff and Stirzsaker. So only around what 7 or so.
Working Class Rugger
Roar Guru
So having NZ talent playing in Australian competitions isn't a fair comparison for Aus talent playing in one NZ competition in very limited numbers. There is more NZ talent plying their trade in Aus across several sports than the 12 or so in the ITM Cup. The point was to highlight the histrionics and hypocrisy of Richards argument regarding foreign talent participating in the ITM Cup. When you look at it the total percentage is probably less than 10%. Hardly a invasion. As for the ANBL, that would be the only league if that is the case. But to be honest, if they were any good they should really chase opportunities in any other league than the ANBL.
Rugby Andrew
Roar Rookie
the argument about keeping the ITM Cup for Kiwis is all good and valid but I think there must be some leeway given. Consider what will happen if the ABs win the next RWC: the rugby spotlight will focus on NZ even more. Other rugby nations will take a closer look at the NZ model which would mean the ITM Cup. For economic powerhouses like the US, Canada, Japan, Italy and so on, it may mean sending players here to learn the best way they can ... on the field. NZ can not afford to remain in its shell as the world is watching; the more the ABs success in the international level, the greater the scrutiny on NZ rugby (and even from rival codes like the NRL, AFL and, heaven forbid, the NFL). It's also worth noting that the rural teams playing each other in the ITM get better crowds then their games against the Big Six (Otago, Wellington, Canterbury, Auckland, Waikato and ... eerr, make that the Big Five!) Canterbury has won the ITM Cup six years in a row; that can't be healthy. That kind of dominance can kill off interest!! A much stronger domestic competition could spell greater revenue for the game in NZ and help retain the younger players in the country. Consider that the NZRU is considering unbundling broadcast rights( For those unaware, Sky TV in NZ lost the live EPL rights to an online broadcaster who are expressing interest in rugby rights as well), this could be a way to monetise the ITM. Read here: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10893050 I can't help feel that there is some sort of moral obligation to help the Aussies out as well (Warriors, Breakers, netball anyone?) but NZ as a much smaller country is limited in its ability to help Australia at no cost to its own game. A selective approach to overseas recruitment could be the way; perhaps through the NZRU. The intent here is to farm such players out to the smaller provinces, not the bigger ones. There should be a great deal of control about it. Not sure about whether Heartland should be included but that is an option. Make no mistake: playing in the ITM Cup is not about making money. That's what France is for. The ITM Cup is all about the rugby. Overseas players waning to play in NZ will be under no illusion about that. And some still want to come.
Sylvester
Guest
I'm not sure it's an apples v apples comparison WCR. Those teams are franchises, so it's almost to restrict who they can employ. NZ rugby is centrally controlled by the NZRFU. Also, I believe there is/was a restriction on "non Australians", which included Kiwis, in the ANBL.
Sylvester
Guest
WCR, I'm comfortable with a few Aussies fillings gaps in NZ teams. I assume the unions don't have unlimited use of foreign players and there is a restriction of sorts. When you say: "NZ sport has benefited off competing in our competition structures for many years" Do you mean the inclusion of NZ franchises or Aussie based teams using Kiwi players?
Emric
Guest
Guys. Anyone who is good enough and prepared to accept the very low wages gained from the ITM cup should be welcome to play in the competition. It increases the strength of the game world wide. Yes is a kiwi competition and yes the vast bulk of positions should be reserved to assist in strengthening the game in New Zealand but I see no harm in allowing a handful of players to come from the international flavour. Anyway its really up to the NZRU now to fix Australian rugby not for the survival of Australian rugby but for the survival of the game in New Zealand. NRL, AFL and Football are all on the rise in Australia and Rugby is starting to suffer because of it. It is better for the NZRU to fight the good fight in Australia then it is to try and defend our own keep.
STW
Guest
From a Super Rugby point of view, I would be happy to have the following foreign base of players come in: Per NZ super rugby team entitlements: 1 x Aussie 1 x Europe 2 x Pacific (Not Born in NZ) 1 x Asia 1 x Americas The above would only apply if and only if NZ was not able to fill positions with its local player base to be competitive within their franchises. Obviously foreigners would need to be good enough to play. As the world benchmark for rugby (NZ), I believe it promotes the growth of the game globally demonstrating our willingness to learn our style of play and share our intellectual property. From an ITM (NPC) perspective....NO WAY!! Provincialism and tribalism is too important and from a personal perspective I'm not willing to share that with the world including our ANZAC bro's. This is the very foundations to the AB's and why we are so good at this game and I'm not prepared and will not support giving this advantage to anyone. If foreign countries want an ITM cup... they can create their own!